OathKeeper

It's not hard to imagine what Uruthiru looks like in its full power (at least in general terms). Climate control, water, agriculture growth, the lifts, and yes, protection. Normally only one bondsmith stays at the tower full time. The bond is probably needed for full control of directing all that investiture. I can't imagine Uruthiru--when alive and bonded--is dependent on the stormfather or his bondsmith to bring investiture in. 

think of the three great spren in terms of theme. 

Stormfather- oaths

Nightwatcher - growth

Uruthiru - ??? But maybe artifice/construction/technology

Quote

The Sibling's Bondsmith - suppress enemy powers and drain their strength, so support by temporarily weakening enemies

I have a hard time imagining that suppression is the central theme of the sibling. It's just one aspect of Uruthiru. The central theme seems to be related to investiture via fabrial, or perhaps an alternative to fabrials that is more friendly to the spren involved. 

On 8/31/2020 at 4:23 AM, Azarias said:

I think that its clear that part of Odium's intention when getting Moash to kill the Heralds is to prevent them from a Herald from doing just that. Personally, I think that he will succeed in killing of a  decent portion of them, and Dalinar will then create a new Oathpact, with some original heralds retaking their place, Shalash and Taln being two, as they have been confirmed to be the focus of two books in the second arc. I think that Kaladin will obviously end up becoming the herald of the windrunners, we might have Dalinar replace Ishar. Shallan could replace Shallash, if, as theorised, Shallash does become a dustbringer, in which case she would be the new herald of the dustbringers. Szeth would replace Nale, Taln remains as Herald of the Stonewards. Perhaps Jasnah and Renarin and Venli would also join. I hope that the edgedancer would be Adolin, purely because our only other named edgedancer is Lift and she's way too young to be tortured for 15 years.

In any case, I think there will be a new oathpact, all our favourite characters will go to Braize and get tortured for 15 years, and then the next five book arc can start with another desolation as one of them gives in. The plus side to this though is that these characters then become immortal, possibly have power upgrades, but ultimately are able to stick around for the rest of the cosmere.

 I kind of dislike this theory mainly because I've assumed that Odium will be our big bad for the whole cosmere, and for someone else to take up that Shard would set Odium back in a major way. Yes, it would eventually have the same intent, though how long in would take for the Shards intent to overwhelm the host's intent is unclear, but I think more that 15 years, and that's all the time we have. Moreover, we know from harmony that being a Shard does not give you an immediate understanding of your abilities and the universe. If the new Odium no longer knows how to shatter shards,  and no longer has all his knowledge of the workings of other shards and their hosts, and other things like that, he's going to be put on the back foot against Shards that are already more powerful, such as Harmony, which would ultimately make him a much worse big bad for the whole cosmere arc. 

I arrived at this exact theory independently of you and I'm irrationally disappointed that I'm not the only one who thought of it or the first to post about it. TBH I only come to this site every few weeks so for all I know there's a whole subset of fans who read this as the path Sanderson is taking us. 

So I'll just add a few prominent reasons I agree:

1) the good guys must counter what Moash is currently doing somehow. Heralds apparently matter a great deal so we must not be without them. 

2) a new and improved oathpact is a conclusive/satisfying enough wrap up to the 5 book arc, while still allowing for any number of problems to be introduced by book 6 to reintroduce conflict. 

3) The story of Fleet (which Kaladin reluctantly tells to Wit in WoR) seems to foreshadow Kal running very hard for a long distance, then dying in order to stop the storm, and being satisfied with that fate. That story is basically the cover letter for his application to be a Herald. These books are his resume.  

Ever since Kaladin told Wit the story of Fleet in WoR, I've been pretty sure this will happen. 

My bet is he dies heroically to wrap his main arc and it's a true sacrifice and everyone is appropriately sad, then resurrects in some form (most likely as the new Windrunner Herald) for back 5. As a Herald he can take a smaller part in the back 5 arc. Maybe just cameo or something or appear at big battles to help. 

10 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Group Three: Dalinar and Jasnah

...

Group One: Kaladin, Venli, Szeth, Adolin, and Moash

...

Group Two: Shallan and Renarin

Group 3- good points. I can see both D and J wanting to stay behind at Uruthiru. However, I think there are plenty of shenanigans that Szeth and Dalinar could get into. I imagine Szeth begging for permission to exact justice and Dalinar holding him back until, in part five, there's someone truly evil and Dalinar let's Szeth off his leash. Like Eddie Brock at the end of Venom.

And as much as I want Jasnah to teach us about Uruthiru, I'd rather see more of her learning to endure the dim wits of the larger party in group one. I'm not shipping her and Kaladin, but I'd love to see them bump heads more. Let him show her the dark[eyes]side of the Nation she now rules. Most importantly, these two typify the two most important perspectives on the justice of fighting the Parshendi. Maybe he can bring her around to a more tolerant perspective and maybe she can help him reach his 4th ideal. Let Adolin, Navani, and Lift come along. I want more bromance with Adolin and Kaladin. I like Navani but am bored by her arc so far so maybe she can have a more critical role here. And Lift would be useful to have along, would brighten the spirits, and could do some growing up. Or Venli, I don't care.

Shallan and Renarin makes too much sense for me to have anything to say about it. Seriously great points, @Jofwu! 

Now this may contradict much of what I said regarding group 1, but don't we need to see more of Roshar about now? I don't want another book too be primarily in Alethkar and Uruthiru. Maybe Lift needs to be their guide somewhere in central or east Roshar since she's explored much of it. Better secure Azimir? Conquer Iri?

Biggest and boldest prediction: 2 parties leave Uruthiru on missions and the 3rd is chased out by Odium's armies in part 5. Then Book 5 is a battle to get it back. Sorry if this is out of place here. Feel free to not address it....

Roshar is kind of like the central transit hub of the Cosmere, right? I'm betting that "Unite them" was meant on all levels: Alethi Princedoms, Rosharan kingdoms, Radiant Orders and, eventually, shards/shardworlds. I think Dalinar, as Unity, will bring the shards together for one cosmere-spanning conflict. 

If Mistborn is fantasy Ocean's Eleven, then Stormlight Archive is fantasy Avengers. 

"There was an idea...The idea was to bring together a group of remarkable people, see if they could become something more. See if they could work together when we needed them to to fight the battles we never could." -Nick Fury

Quote

“You ate chicken?” Renarin asked as Adolin took the helm. 

“For breakfast.” 

“And you talked to the sword?” 


“Had an entire conversation.” 



“Mother’s chain in your pocket?” 


“Checked three times.” 

Navani folded her arms. “You still hold to those foolish superstitions?” 

Quote

“Now, you ate chicken?” Renarin asked. 


“Two plates of the stuff, with curry.” 

“Mother’s chain?” 

Adolin felt in his pocket. 

Then he felt in his other one. 

“What?” Renarin asked, fingers tightening on Adolin’s shoulder. 

“I could havesworn I slipped it in.” 

Renarin cursed. 

“Might be back in my rooms,” Adolin said. “In the warcamps. On my end table.” 
Assuming he hadn’t grabbed it, then lost it on the way. Storms. 

Why wasn't it ever described as a necklace or jewelry? In both instances it is referred to as Evi's chain.

Ready...set...speculate!

3 hours ago, old aggie said:

You are correct about how it usually goes. At signings I've attended, he takes questions from the whole crowd first, then you can ask something quick when you get your copy signed. They suggest that you write out what you'd like for your personalization on a post-it or something, if you want something specific, but I usually just ask for "something about [character X]" and he comes up with something cool. He also has a couple things he uses for when fans don't have special requests. You'll also get a moment to have your picture taken with Brandon -- the organizers are great about handling that.

Looking forward to seeing everyone this evening! and this morning in line! :-)

Thanks! It's helpful to know what to expect!

I've never been to a QA with Brandon before. Could someone describe what it's like? Do we just line up for personalizations and you get 30 seconds or so to ask what questions we want before walking away with a personalized book? Does he write answers to your questions in the book? How much pressure is there to step aside quickly?

Please don't mock me if the answer is obvious... But who are the two figures stomping off after the Highstorm while Kaladin and Shallan are in the chasm at the end of WoR?

One was an "enormous figure walking up there, a glowing inhuman form, followed by another, alien and sleek striding the storm. Leg after leg, until the glow passed."

I remember being fascinated and confused but then getting too caught up in the climax of the book to dwell on it. 

The reason I'm asking this here: my initial subconscious explanation was that Cultivation strides the Highstorms to mix her own investiture with that of Honor's. Weak, I know. But I can't come up with anything better.

5 hours ago, Jonathon said:

Granted, but you forget to send them all in

 

I wish I wasn't such a bad person

Granted, but you will now perceive the person you love most as despicable.

I wish Shallan would only get 5 maximum POV chapters per SA book.

@DiamondMind, your analysis > mine and I'm man enough to admit it.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I don't agree with the conclusion. Just because Shallan thinks, based on his expression, Renarin knows something does not mean he does: it just means Shallan is very uncomfortable with Renarin and finds him creepy. Besides, if Renarin knew, then he would have confronted Adolin with his knowledge, just as he did when he thought Adolin was mistrusting his guards. This isn't something Renarin would keep silent for weeks without ever trying to talk to his brother and if such talk happened, well, it didn't happened behind closed doors.

The scene was very clearly foreshadowing that Renarin knows something the rest don't. It is so much more than her finding Renarin creepy. But you're right that we can't be sure what exactly Renarin knows. 

We also can't assume that he would confront Adolin over murder. No previous circumstances in a relationship can tell you how you respond to finding out a loved one is a murderer. Comparing that revelation to confronting Adolin over mistrusting his guards is a bit asymmetric, don't you think?

My conclusion: maybe Renarin knows. I like the reasoning others have put forth. Personally I think he is merely suspicious and has Seen some of the future potential Adolins and is figuring out what led him to each. I'm of the opinion that truthwatchers see the future only and view it as strings of probabilities like in Dune. I don't think he saw the murder, just its consequences on Adolin.

So we know/think we know what some of the unmade gimmicks are (or at least the common consequences of them):

Re-Shepir- makes midnight essences

Moelach- death rattles

Sja-anat- thunderclasts (or something more broad with spren inhabiting inanimate objects?)

Ner-Gaoul- the Thrill

***********

So what about the unmade we have yet to see it that we may have seen but not identified?

I invite your best theories on what some of the yet-to-be-seen Unmade do.

I believe that true to Rosharan symmetry, each unmade is a sick parody of a KR order. I know that leaves one order unaccounted for. I have no explanation for that. Anyway:

Re-Shepir seems to be the anti-lightweaver

Moelach- anti-truthwatcher

Sja-anat- anti-stoneward?

Ner gaoul- anti-skybreakers?

Dai-gonarthis- ???

I think that the anti-windrunner may be what turned the parshendi at Narak to stormform. It leads them, but by compulsion rather than compassion.

The anti-elsecaller might corrupt written records (we've seen this elsewhere in the cosmere) It would be interesting to know that an Unmade orchestrated the corruption of history that had been such a nuisance.

Is there any other mischief (read: horror and destruction) on Roshar that may be tied to Unmade?

We learned in an interlude of WoK that the old magic doesn't operate on verbal technicalities. It is straightforward and clear in both curses and boons and you don't have to carefully close up lexical loopholes with the nightwatcher. 

So if forgetting Evi was his boon (have we ruled this out?), No way would the nightwatcher be so tricksy as to transfer it to Navani.

If his curse was to forget Evi specifically, that's obviously not transferrable. 

If his curse was to forget "the woman he loves," I have a hard time imagining it would take this long to start forgetting her. I believe he loved Evi just fine, but is his current love for Navani so minor in comparison that no effects have set in yet?

If his curse was to forget "his wife", well that seems unlike Nightwatcher to hinge the curse on the marriage vows rather than the relationship itself. If they had been married under normal circumstances (without a bond to the Stormfather), they could just get divorced and be lifelong companions, making it a pretty reversible curse. 

I also doubt the old magic can be bested in such a way as to secure one's boon and ditch one's curse. That would be too convenient. 

There is something weird going on with the old magic as it interfaces with surgebinders. I wonder if they're somehow incompatible. Lift's boon is failing her too. Will Taravangian's genius start failing him? 

12 hours ago, Aminar said:

That would be a truly ludicrous and offensive character arc. It, along with Renarin going evil, would actually stop me from reading Sanderson. 

That's not how DID works. You don't create a character and then it "takes over" The effects of the disorder are 100% involuntary. And really nothing like what we're talking about. Pop culture multiple personalities are stupidly wrong, but then putting the onus for the disorder on the people suffering from it like that... 

Brandon is smarter than that. He does his research better than that. 

Her character arc might very well be learning not to use these characters, and to be comfortable in her own skin. That would be fine. But the way you're talking about it. No. 

I apologize for any offense you've taken, but I never meant that this speculative Shallan arc would be representative of real life DID. I agree that attributing a fictional character's fictional behavior to an actual disorder that it does not accurately resemble can be harmful. Still, said arc would be interesting to me, far as it may be from DID or any other real mental illness. I personally don't think it's cheesey or cliche, but we all consume different media so to each his own.

I don't think it's wrong to draw comparisons to disorders that it would--very very loosely--resemble though. It helps to have some real life parallel, even if they're quite different in many regards. My point: I'm not saying she has DID. 

On 9/27/2017 at 1:25 AM, aemetha said:

A few points. The DSM-V can only be used to diagnose "anyone" with a mental disorder if one ignores the catch all intended to prevent "anyone" from being diagnosed. It is not enough to just exhibit the specific diagnostic criteria for a disorder, it must also constitute significant impairment or distress in order to be clinically significant. Also, it is considered an ethical breach to diagnose someone publicly and without a private consultation, and so the armchair psychologists and psychiatrists that have caused the development of this misinterpretation of the dsm should be acknowledged for exactly what they are - unethical hacks.

As is pointed out above, dissociative identity disorder is an unconscious protective response, which is quite different from what Shallan is doing, which would best be described as an avoidance stress coping technique. Generally speaking avoidance stress coping techniques are considered adaptive in the short term as they shield the person from sudden overwhelming trauma but may become maladaptive in the longer term if appropriate approach techniques for coping with the stressor are not employed.

...

It is also worth considering that several very prominent psychologists would tell you that Shallans traumatic past just isn't worthy of this degree of analysis. Why does it matter that she killed her parents, the issue is that she feels guilty when she holds her sword. Ellis and Beck would encourage her to explore the faulty assumption that is causing her to have this irrational (Ellis) or dysfunctional (Beck) response, and not give more attention to the history of it than is required to disabuse her of that assumption. Emperically the cognitive school of psychotherapy is as valid, if not more than the psychodynamic traditions.

 

Dissociative identity becomes a disorder when it becomes involuntary and interferes significantly in the person's life. Right now Shallan can control it, making it a coping method as stated above. However, I agree with others that it's dangerous because I feel pretty confident that her arc will be losing control of her personas. I think she will create several in rapid succession and fail to keep control of them (she created Radiant in a fit of desperation and without thought for the consequences). One may take over and "lock Shallan up", so to speak. I think pattern would cease to allow her to surgebind if true ego Shallan is no longer in control of them. I wonder if she'll create some personas that are truly dangerous to herself and others (think of the movie Split). 

Now I'm not a psychologist, but this much I know: insanity is a legal definition, not a psychological one. It means one cannot discern right from wrong and can therefore not be held legally accountable for their actions. When people on this thread say insane, I suspect they mostly mean psychotic. Psychosis is a severe break from external reality. I don't think Shallan is there, so long as she remembers that she created veil and Radiant. The second she forgets that and forgets/loses her ability to decide which persona is in control, I think we can call her psychotic.

23 hours ago, Dahak said:

I'm wondering between unscratchable rock and Shallans problems drawing Urithru if like Lift it isn't partially in the Cognitive Realm.

Or it's just a side effect of how they built the place and the Dawncities using some massive cymatic effect.

This is an interesting thought. I'm kind of jealous it hadn't occurred to me that that is why she can't seem to take it all in. We need Shallan to visit Shadesmar Uruthiru to confirm. I wonder if the strata help navigate the building. Perhaps they glow and guide you with intuitive patterns. That would explain Shallan's aptitude for using the strata in the physical realm, being somewhat more acquainted with the cognitive realm than others.

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

 

2 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

I never said stop discussing it. I'm just asking in exasperation why we are still discussing it. 

It's this kind of topic where opinions get touted as facts the most, and arguments get nasty and don't convince anyone. There's also the thing that there are a dozen other threads on this topic. 

The last thing I intended here was to cause more tension in this thing. My post was intended to diffuse the tension this topic invariably creates. Now I was ninjad by Calderis, so I'll see what he has to say. 

Sorry for ribbing you. My point was just that there are so many threads on this forum that you have to kind of plan on plenty of them being uninteresting to you and then tolerantly leave them be. Where we're getting new releases each week that dramatically change our views of the characters, I'm glad we start with a clean slate periodically rather than reviving some old shipping thread. 

Your cause for exasperation may be (and apparently is) another man's (or several fans') engaging conversation. 

Also it's a scientific fact that Shalladin is stupid and I hate everyone who disagrees. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

55 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I swear I am so done with the shipping wars. JUST LET THE BOOK HAPPEN FOR STORMS SAKE

Guys, Steeldancer's done with the shipping wars. Somebody close this thread down immediately.

Sorry, @Steeldancer, didn't realize you were done. Our bad. 

My problem is I like Kaladin and I think Shallan is only annoying and not cool at all. I rarely like BS romances because the awkward preteen bicker-flirting is so cheesy it makes me physically grimace reading it. 

Shallan's story is interesting but her POV and dialogue is the most annoying I've ever read. I want to scream at her "It ceases to be clever the second you address the cleverness! Stop dissecting your own mediocre quips!" Kaladin deserves a cooler girl. Age gap be rusted, I want Jasnadin to happen but I doubt Brandon will veer from his Shalladin warpath.

Dude, the traitor is 100% Moash

46 minutes ago, Gaussian said:

In Shallan's new chapters we've noticed several mentions of the patterns on the walls of Urithiru.  Now, this may just be a coincidence due to her greater aesthetic refinement, but I think there is more to it than that.  We know that Lightweaving involves "Light, Sound, and other waveforms."  To me, the patterns could very well be some of these other "waveforms."  Thus, the majority of the information the Radiants had gathered is encoded in the walls, waiting to be unlocked by an appropriately aware Lightweaver.  This is part of Urithiru's protection, since even if an enemy gets inside, they can't get at any of the Radiant's information since they aren't bonded with a Cryptic and don't have the surges to interpret it.  Let me know if you have any other ideas as to why so much time has been spent expositing the walls.

I agree that there is something to it, but I doubt "other waveforms" means strata of rock sediment. 

I kind of think there is significance to soulcast rock that we have yet to learn. Since her lightweaving was explored so much in WoR, I bet Shallan soulcasting will be heavily featured in Oathbringer. And in learning to do so, she will have to make the connection between the strata and something she encounters in shadesmar. The cover, ft. Jasnah soulcasting a wall, shows the same strata Shallan has been focusing on. I don't think Jasnah is transmitting a code... Just fixing a wall.

Less exciting than your theory, I know :/

Ok, time to speculate wildly about what Shallan's first two truths were. There is a clear progression so they probably didn't have to be as dramatic as 3 and 4, but still powerful enough to justify the bond. Also it would fit for the truths to have to be about herself.

Might #1 have simply been "I'm a surgebinder" ? After noticing proto status in herself? Maybe Heloran observed her doing  proto things and told her what it means, and she had to accept it.

I'm stuck on #2 though. Perhaps something about her potential, like "I'm dangerous." That would fit the bill for a truth she seems to have suppressed. Unless it's another truth about something she had done, but I can't imagine what pre-matricide Shallan was like at all.

6 hours ago, Elena said:

Since we're talking about Elhokar (one of my favourite people to speculate about, in case it wasn't clear) there's something we haven't really discussed so far.

How is he going to react when he finds out that Kaladin had a hand in the botched assassination attempt he rescued him from? How is he even going to find out? I'm assuming Kaladin will tell somebody at some point, plus we haven't seen the last of Moash yet, so a reckoning is definitely coming up.

Truth be told, I think the assassination attempt was the best thing that could have happened to Elhokar; it kicked off all that introspection and gave Elhokar some more Poweful Truths to serve to all those cryptics stalking him, but it wasn't exactly Kaladin's best moment. How will Elhokar react when he finds out that the man he basically hero worships (even though he cannot yet be bothered to remember Kaladin's name) at one point wanted him dead? I can see him getting enraged. I can see him going all 'everybody wants me gone, but I'll show them' again. I can see him really taking it hard - I still maintain that Elhokar getting drunk and depressed before the attempt was less a consequence of Moash's co-conspirators criticizing him within hearshot and more about Kaladin showing nothing but contempt a few chapters earlier.

Whatever happens, I think it will further Elhokar's character development more than it will make him regress, but I really hope it could also serve as a moment of growth for Kaladin, too - I'd love it if they actually went on their Awkward Roadtrip of Heroes and Kaladin actually confessed. Better that than the truth coming out in some explosive way later on, plus Elhokar needs to do some more growing up asap before he deals with the fact that his wife is behind the mess in his city

Has anybody here seen Galavant season 2? Because that is exactly how the Elokhar/Kaladin story should go (But less ridiculous).

6 hours ago, platnumkid said:

You are right, but I feel like it doesn't fit.  Dalinar doesn't even know any of these groups exist yet.  From his POV there is no need for a covert intelligence network.  Sure they need info on the voidbringers and what "the enemy" is upto but he should view this more as scouting and recon than infiltration.  At least thats how I believe Dalinar would look at the current situation.

Oh, but Jasnah knows about at least the ghost bloods. She should initiate this plan and just kind of let Dalinar know "Hey, I'm a KR too, so consider Elsecallers founded or whatever but I've got some krem to take care of so see you later!"