Stormrunner1730

Isn't this basically Jasnah's Order (at least her combination of surges)?

I don't know how much of Amaram's intentions are to help others. I think he thinks his intentions are to help others. I think his motivations are so tied to religion that his reality is defined by whether or not his actions lead to the re-ascension of the Vorin Church. So I would say that his motivations are tied to his religious ideals moreso than an ideal to "help others", I would probably still not consider him evil. But I don't think he has altruistic motivations.

Not on the list, but seeing the Stone Shamans come back to get Jezrien's Honorblade. If that scene were to include Szeth, it could be an absolutely perfect sequence.

I'll have to check out the Graphic Audio adaptation. But yeah I think the only Szeth moment with more emotion is the "I am not Truthless!" moment from his and Kaladin's fight later on (which is perhaps my favorite fight sequence in a story ever).

Just wanted to comment on how brilliantly constructed the chapter "The One Who Hate" in Word of Radiance is (I just read it on my Stormlight re-read). For reference, it's the chapter where Szeth first tries to assassinate Dalinar and ends up fighting Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin. The title is perfect, as it references both (primarily) Odium and his presence/influence throughout the event (or rather the fact that someone is trying to kill one of his leading antagonists) and Szeth (who hates having to carry out this order, but does it anyways). The chapter is also paced perfectly. I love how Sanderson cuts between Shallan's POV and Kaladin/Adolin's POV. The POV cuts are quick and serve to show the rising tension in the sequence. You can feel Kaladin's desperation as he realizes that something real bad is about to happen. The entire scene funnels into the image of Szeth in the hallway (such an awesome image btw). The fight itself is epic and provides awesome character moments for all involved (Szeth's burst of emotion at finding out Kaladin is a Surgebinder is perfect). In an unrelated comment, my favorite chapter title in the series is probably "Death Wears White" though (Szeth WOK interlude where he kills the king of Jah Kaved).

It's a really good bet that the Dalinar/Nightwatcher scene will be the last flashback of the book. Or at least close to the end.

When you're in a city and you start debating which skyscraper would be the most fun to Pull/Push yourself up to.

I apologize for not speaking to all of your points. Specifically on the last point though. Obviously the Stormlight Archive will not be an argument for the murder of invalids/actions like that. However, what Brandon seems to be saying is that even the most extreme events (i.e. the end of the world) do not have a morally black and white solution. In order for something to be entirely morally good, every single person on Earth would have to have the exact same viewpoint on that issue. If there is even one person who doesn't agree, then the issue is no longer black and white. There can obviously be a consensus (i.e. the Holocaust was one of the most morally bad things to ever happen in history). But even then, people in Nazi Germany were convinced to enact Hitler's agenda. Most people would consider those who view the Holocaust as a positive event to be pretty awful people. But it doesn't change the fact that they have a differing viewpoint (even if it is warped and deluded).

How far back in the writing process do people think Brandon planned on bringing Kelsier back to life? I have mixed feelings about the topic, and hope that it wasn't recently. Part of what I loved about the Final Empire, was that Brandon was willing to kill off the person that the story was about. I initially felt cheated that he would bring Kelsier back. Ultimately, I think it works because of how it was done in Secret History. I also trust that Brandon has some really cool stuff planned with the character. I just felt kind of miffed initially.

That makes sense. The Heralds are presumably one of these "hacks" (although we don't really know the exact details of their existence at this time). Also, (Mistborn Secret History spoilers)

I agree with your first statement about the shards themselves being amoral. I should have specified that I was referring to Odium and Rayse as a combined entity. Short of some major revelation in which all of the other Shardholders severely wronged Rayse in the past, I can't think of a justification for his actions that would not be considered evil. Also, to your point, Hoid has stated that Rayse is not a particularly great person. Obviously, Hoid is prone to deception, etc, but stopping Odium/Rayse seems to be a genuine goal of his. So, I would believe his word in the letter/assessment in this case.

So his cognitive shadow is still present and actively sentient in the Stormfather (as opposed to kind of being a tape-recorder type awareness)?

I really hope we see him or other (Szeth?) fight some Stone Shamans. As to how/why he got Nightblood, I have no idea. I'm sure it'll make sense what Brandon explains it since Vasher and Nightblood were originally conceived as Stormlight characters. I want to see what Nale says about Ishar, since he claimed to be acting on Ishar's guidance. I think that would give us a window into the Heralds' insanity. I also want to see Nale interact with Dalinar. That would be such a cool conversation, as it would essentially be bringing the Heralds back into the "mainstream" (I'm not counting Taln [who I do think is Taln, just an insane version of him] since he hasn't been "publicly" confirmed to be a Herald who has returned). Dalinar and Nale could also have a very interesting philosophical discussion.

Well Ruin is complicated in that sense. Brandon has said that Ruin and Cultivation are pretty similar. Ruin could be looked at as wanting to destroy a certain way of life/phase in order to make way for a new way of life. Mistborn Spoiler:

I agree with all of this. The reason i see Odium as the only truly evil thing in SA is that he is an abstract of the very concept of hatred. Well, the whole Shard-Vessel relationship makes that a little complicated. But either way Odium is hatred existing without context, (which the way I see it is just pure negative emotion towards all existence). I'm sure we'll get more about Rayse either by the end of SA or in Dragonsteel, but until then his hatred has no context the way I see it.

Yeah I don't disagree with this. That's why it would have to be under very specific contexts. And we don't know enough about Rayse to be able to say he's at all justified. For now all we have to go on are his methods (which include, but are not limited to: effectively destroying Shards, trying to completely wipe out humanity on Roshar every few thousand years, torturing the Heralds for said thousands of years... just because he can).

Are there any characters in the Stormlight Archive that you would consider to be evil? I'm bringing this over as a thread from the "Dichotomy of Villains" thread since a discussion there started to become a discussion of morality rather than the original post. I would say that Odium is only character I would currently consider to be truly evil. We don't know a whole lot about Odium the Shard or Rayse, but their combined Intent is nothing other than hatred itself, which I would say is a negative emotion that cannot have positive or "good" effects without very specific contexts. I would also include Sadeas on this list. However, I would say that Sadeas merely acts selfishly/in his own self interest. This leads to a discussion of whether or not selfishness is evil. I would argue in this case that Sadeas' selfishness led him to do evil and immoral things (the 4 on 1 duel, double crossing/abandoning Dalinar at the end of WOK). One could still very much argue a different point on this, but I would stick by Sadeas as an evil person in the context of SA. I would however, still concede that this is based on my point of view and opinions. I would say that Szeth and Taravangian are not evil because they are following a certain code that is not inherently bad. Whether or not those codes (the Shin religion and Diagram respectively) are evil depends on your point of view. But they were both simply following the codes that have ruled their existence for years. Sanderson also makes a point of avoiding dichotomies of "good" and "evil" (from his point of view at least). I would not say that Amaram is evil as his goal is to bring back the Heralds. We'll don't know a whole lot about the Sons of Honor yet, but given what little we know, that's my view on Amaram. He has done some pretty despicable things (branding Kaladin and killing his squad, etc.). But this would be a combination of my view on Sadeas and Taravangian/Szeth. Amaram is following a code with a goal that is not inherently "bad." He also knows and recognizes that he's done some pretty bad stuff. While I personally think his approach is wrong, there are valid arguments against that. Otherwise, Brandon wouldn't have made Gavilar a Son of Honor.

Morality gets tricky. I personally don't feel that Szeth or Taravangian's murders are justified (Adolin's murder of Sadeas certainly isn't. As happy as that moment made me...). But "good" and "evil" are in the eye of the beholder. Do all humans agree on what is good and what is not? If we did, there would never be conflict of any sort. As such though, no human has had the same exact experience. We all have different upbringings and perspectives. I might start a new topic for this since we're getting kind of off topic to the original post.

That makes sense. I forgot to think of it from the perspective of Dalinar and co. not knowing that the Shardblades are dead spren (although I think that will change in Oathbringer). I would say that the second paragraph of your answer is pretty on point. Obviously it would depend on the situation as you said. But it's an interesting conundrum to think about.

Per the topic title, I'm curious if people think it's morally "right" for people to be wielding dead Shardblades in battle? It's something I've kind of been think of lately as I'm re-reading WOK. It seems kind of wrong for Dalinar and Adolin to be swinging around a dead spren. That being said, if they didn't wield their dead shardblades, Szeth probably would have killed both of them in WOR and neither would have stood a chance against Eshonai. I more just want to see what people think of this in general than take a particular stance on it (besides what I said above).

Oh I'm by no means saying it makes what Szeth did better. Szeth did some terrible stuff, which is not to be excused. But his motivations were not evil. As far as we know, Szeth has no other point of reference for morality other than the Shin religion (I'm sure this will be explored in his flashback book). But as afar as we know, he was just following what he believed. Take the issue of gay marriage and Christianity. An LGBTQ person would argue that a fundamentalist Christian is intolerant and evil because they won't accept gay marriage. A fundamentalist Christian might argue that homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says it is (it doesn't actually say this if you look at it from a certain point of view/context, but that's not a whole different topic/not a discussion for this thread), and therefore an LGBTQ person is evil. Neither group is morally wrong from an absolute point of view. It's all about the perspective. Likewise, Szeth is not evil for following the Shin religion to the letter. Just like Moash isn't inherently evil for wanting to kill Elokhar. Like @Caderis said, Taravangian isn't evil for wanting to save humanity. He's done some pretty messed up things, but from his perspective, they are justified if he saves humanity from the Desolation. I'm also going to jump on the bandwagon and praise this series for sparking this type of discussion. I could talk about this stuff all day. For the record, I love this whole dialogue and I hope I haven't come across as being too bullheaded about this (the lack of absolute good and evil in regards to certain characters at least).

Like I said before, Szeth was morally against his own actions. He was simply sticking to the belief system that had governed his way of life and thought process for his entire life. This is what Honor has defined as a key attribute for a Radiant. Brandon has been very careful about not labelling Shards or their Intents as "good" or "evil". So, Szeth acting according to his belief system does not make him evil. He's most certainly an antagonist to anyone not on Taravangian's team until the end of WOR. But that doesn't make Szeth as a character evil. All of the Heralds are insane. Nale was acting on information fed to him by Ishar. In his added state of mind, what Ishar told him about Radiats brining about the Desolation made sense. Once Lift convinced him otherwise, he abandoned this line of thought (well, that we know of).

Granted, but you now have so much work that you are compelled to do that you never have time for anything else. I wish I could finish writing the story ideas I come up with.

It wasn't his choice to murder those people (or at least he perceived it as not being his choice). His intentions were to follow his code/religion (the only thing keeping him sane/justifying his continued existence in his eyes). He was bound to obey the owner of his Oathstone by his honor (which is incidentally what makes him a great Radiant candidate; or more specifically Skybreaker candidate). Therefore he only saw himself as a tool. His internal monologues during his POVs are all about how he thinks he's a monster for what he's doing. Granted you could argue that he killed all of those people regardless. But Szeth's intentions weren't evil. In other words, Szeth knew what he was doing was wrong, but his intent was not inherently evil, as he was morally against his own actions.

I really like this idea, but I think it holds true for some characters, but not others due to the natures of the difference characters and their arcs/struggles. Brandon also doesn't often make things that black and white for this type of thing. Dalinar/Taravangian is perfect since they have directly contrasting agendas. Or rather their agendas will collide since both of their philosophies cannot survive without at least one of them budging slightly. I don't think Jasnah will really have a direct antagonist (although I like the Amaram idea). Since her quest is more nebulous and without a specific goal besides "save the world", I see her antagonists as more the different secret societies as a whole (Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor). Eshonai's antagonist is 100% Venli. Kaladin's is almost himself and his view of lighteyes more than anything else. Although I would argue that Amaram/Adolin/Roshone are all antagonists at certain points (Sadeas too, but less directly). Szeth isn't really a personal antagonist of his so much as an opponent to help create one of my favorite fight scenes in any fictional story I've ever read haha. Shallan's was Tyn at one point, arguably Jasnah in WOK (their differing philosophies, ets. Plus Shallan's goal for the first half of the book is to steal from Jasnah). But in general I more see Shallan's antagonists more along the lines of Jasnah (less clearly defined because of the nature of her work/Order) So ultimately I think it really depends on the character. Most characters in SA have different antagonists at differing times depending on their current goal. There are exceptions to this (Dalinar/Taravangian, Venli/Eshonai), but I would be careful about simplifying a character's obstacles to a single person/entity (Excluding Shards haha). I mostly say that because Brandon is very careful to not have absolute moral labels such as "good" or "evil" assigned to most characters in his stories. That being said, obviously you could totally look at a character from a certain perspective and show that they have a specific antagonist in a specific instance (i.e. Moash for Kaladin at the end of WOR, etc.)