Deus Ex Biotica

Right, but he clearly doesn't know exactly where the bullet is going to end up until he sees it deflect.

The discussion is about whether you could, given time, meaningfully compensate for the deflection/refraction, allowing to shoot out of it and hit things, rather than waiting until the moment it drops (as Wax does for his second, much more carefully-aimed, shot).

"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero."

If you know where someone is going to be, and nothing you care about is too close to it, a sufficiently deadly explosion could vaporize even a Gold Compounder. There's no question of that. Defensively, the problem with most Mistings (especially things like Mistborn, Coinshot Twinborn, and Keepers) is the extra ways they move, and the difficulty defending against all those possibilities. This becomes a real nightmare if you're facing a team of them.

Offensively, it's even tougher, since you're trying to catch them somewhere you might not have all your fancy aluminum toys.

Therefore, the core of my Scadrial defenses is a facade. Maintain a manor in Elendel, and set some baseline defensive efforts (guards, minimal metal on the perimeter, etc.), but nothing impenetrable. Come and go regularly from this residence... but don't actually stay there. Instead, do things Set-style with tunnels under the building, and come and go through those. With any luck, an attack will miss your real hideout, while revealing your enemies' abilities. Without that much luck, they will find the tunnel, and a lone guard at the far end will seal both ends off with massive stone doors. Have three such tunnels, each only able to be sealed/unsealed from the inside, and all watched constantly, so that even if you have someone trapped, you may still come and go at will.

For defense while walking around, I am tempted to say "have a couple of badass bodyguards," but the goal here is to find ways of fighting Mistings/Ferrings which are both practical and require no magic of your own. The best bodyguards, then, are not simply strong men with dueling canes (and, if appropriate, aluminum guns) who are used to fighting Allomancers. The best guard is one who excels in rapidly changing the landscape of the fight. As observed before, the best weapon against Allomancy is the unexpected - have people with a lot of tricks for making loud noises, sticky or slippery surfaces, moving around, using lassos or harpoons to tie things to their foe, etc. A given trick might not be deeply effective against a given foe, but the simple mental effort of realizing what it is should keep them off-balance, giving enemies a chance.

One more piece of tactical advice: if you are ambushed by an unknown magic-using enemy indoors, immediately head outside, and vice-versa. Range is everything in an Allomantic fight - Coinshots are deadliest when they can stay away from you, while Thugs are a nightmare up close. Trust your enemy to know their best range... and do not let them have it.

Hunting an Allomancer is primarily a matter of bait. Almost any combat Allomancer can either outrun you, or stay away from you indefinitely. If you manage to lure them in in "neutral territory," (say, a narrow alley, or an abandoned building), you probably have not managed to rig up sealable rooms, or mounted rotary guns (if you can lure them into a trap that deadly, congratulations! Just don't get complacent), so you need a concealable and man-portable weapon. I recommend crossbows with non-metal lances (coated in a sticky substance), attached to the strongest non-metallic tether available (is there silk in Scadrial? Hemp? Eventually, there will probably be strong plastics...). Almost any kind of Allomancer is at a huge disadvantage when tied down - even a Thug will be impeded. Three to five people armed with such weapons give good odds of scoring at least a hit or two (and, even if the foe uses something as a shield or wears armor, the adhesive will give them a few problems), while another 2-4 members of the team are given more conventional weaponry (dueling canes, obsidian throwing knives, bows, etc.) to use quickly on the target while they are dealing with the grapples. Ideally, each squad member is trained with each weapon, so that if the initial burst of grapples only scores limited hits, the two teams can switch roles (since reloading the grapples described would be highly difficult). It goes without saying that these people should drill as a squad, and wear the best non-metal armor available.

One final note: if you expect several Allomantic or Feruchemical enemies, use the least flashy methods you can, fight at night or in hidden spaces, and do everything you can to obscure knowledge of your victory. Explosions, rotary guns, flamethrowers, and so on may be effective, but even they become increasingly ineffective as people learn to expect them. The great weakness of your enemy is that they have a very specific set of abilities to utilize, and must learn how to apply them to each situation - never let them be prepared for you. This goes both ways: if attacked by unknown enemies, work to expose their specific abilities, to have an edge later.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

And it has been tried (at least somewhat). Sazed mentions that "Feruchemy can do some very odd things, like age" in the first book. Although I'd imagine it's untried with the current deficit of Atium.[/left]

AKA, the current only-one-person-in-the-world-has-a-single-bead-of-Atium?

Good show with that quote - it states both the vast capacity of Atium (which also helps explain how Rashek Compounded it so effectively) and the fact that Atium can take you to your "youth," not just your physical prime.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Good one!

I think that a fast-time bubble which spanned a stream would create a wave. Between the deflection of water going in and out¹, and the fact that all the water which was inside when the bubble was created would be exiting at almost the same time, it still probably wouldn't be huge, but could be noteworthy. A bubble which only came partway across would probably do much the same thing, but with an even more muted effect. In either case, I think the water level inside would steadily fall, as the water is not flowing in as fast as it flows out.

A slow-time bubble which completely spans a river (or, given its larger size, maybe an entire canal) would be the opposite: it would fill with water, since the water inside moves more slowly than the water outside. Once it filled even a little, though, water would be flowing out the sides in all directions, even back up stream, so it probably would not fill very fast. It would still be cool to watch, though. If you kept it going long enough, however, it might appreciably reduce the water level downstream, while the bubble held.

The behavior of a totally submerged bubble would probably be harder to notice.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

¹:I refuse to believe that deflection entering and exiting a time bubble cancel each other out, since if they did, that would mean the deflection is entirely predictable, which in turn means that a shot as good as Max could learn to accurately compensate for it.

Whoever wrote the Ars Arcanum said that when Feruchemists store investiture in nicrosil, they definitely don't know what they're doing. This implies to me that whoever wrote the Ars Arcanum has seen a Feruchemist store investiture, or else the author wouldn't know what nicrosil did.

Ah - that's an excellent point! The writer clearly notes that even the people of Terris have no idea what they are talking about with regards to Chromiumminds. And since Terris clearly has ongoing cultural contact with the Elendel Basin, it is logical to assume that the people of the Basin do, too.

I suppose it remains possible that Nicrosil is still a mystery, however.

Clearly, I need to re-read Sazed's fights in Well of Ascension. As for this:

5)By definition, there would be no sonic boom (sound cannot travel faster than mach 1 to make one). I doubt if there would even be a very loud noise, or else it would not work to have a conversation inside one without deafening everyone outside of it.

People outside the bubble to hear a fast jumbling of everything said inside, though (Wayne covers this by coughing). And Wax and Wayne are probably speaking pretty quietly (Marasi isn't when the explosion comes at her, but any noise she made was dwarfed by, well, the explosion). Since a sonic boom is the result of sound waves forced to interfere with each other, it seems to me that the edge of a time bubble is a perfect environment to generate them.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. I am saddened that nobody else has seen fit to share their quandaries in my thread. I can't be the only person who thinks of these things!

Say you have a Archivist Ferring who's also a Pulser. Once he's stored his memories, he spends nearly all his time burning cadmium, and if anyone wants to consult him they put up a sign or something and he drops the bubble. He could feasibly stay alive and consultable for about 5 or 6 times the usual.

That seems like a really expensive way to do something which could be accomplished by people reciting their Copperminds to each other, Keeper-style.

On the other hand, a sufficiently-powerful religion might pay for it in order to keep a prophetic figure or saint alive.

The technology level is meant to be about 1910 New York, but their electrical wires are mostly underground, and technology lags 1910 in certain areas and is ahead in certain areas (especially metallurgy). Let's say that internal combustion engines are at 1910 level, metallurgy is decades ahead, and anything involving electricity is decades behind. Also, I have no idea at all about the current state of medicine.

Also lagging behind: weaponry. We were starting to move from double-action revolvers to semiautomatics in 1910. But, of course, it makes perfect sense that a world without large-scale wars would be lagging behind in weaponry (and, to a lesser degree, medicine), so I really like that.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. I second the request for an unambiguous yes/no on whether Scadrial has telegraphs, assuming that such a thing is know. But, either way, thanks for the detail!

4) Ironminds store weight, but not volume or density. Pewterminds, on the other hand, do change your volume when you use them. Do they also change weight, or do you weigh the same amount no matter how much "bulk" of muscles you create with it? Would the extra bulk decrease your agility? Do Metalminds resize to match, and if not, how is Sazed not cutting himself up when he taps Strength?

5) If you made a lot of loud noises in a Bendalloy bubble, would them being compressed together as they leave it result in a sonic boom?

DISCLAIMER: The flamethrower suggestion was just a bit tongue-in-cheek. Try not to bite my head off.

That's the problem: it's actually a very useful idea, which is why it was hard to take as a joke. A limited one in many ways, but certainly useful against a wide variety of defenses (just ask Harry Dresden).

Strength compounders really wouldn't be much trouble, provided you've got a nice marksman like Wax. Shoot him in the brain and drop him quick. Though, it might be difficult to keep your cool while watching a ten-foot-wide hulk lurch through the walls at you.

Wax is probably one of the best marksmen in the world (he hit a moving bullet using a handgun!), and even he has some trouble finding clean shots against Tarson - the combination of inhuman speed with the knowledge that if he grabs you once it's all over is potent! And a Compounder could be constantly smashing through walls, or carrying a 10,000 lb piece of metal as a shield/potential projectile, or otherwise making a nuisance of themselves.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. You raise a really good point I had been overlooking with the "10 foot wide" detail, but that's a matter for http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1349-allomatic-thought-experiments/.

Honestly, much as I love elaborate death traps, I doubt we'll ever get more efficient than Yomen: lure them into a very sturdy room, then seal it off. Even Miles would be neutralized by that. The only problem I forsee is a Strength Compounder, who could have the power to get out, even from the sturdiest room. Really, that would be a nightmare to defend against in general, since as a Thug, they'd also heal fast and be resistant to poisons. For someone like that, I think you're best served dropping them down a pit, then flooding it with water to drown them.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. The pit is not my solution of choice for everyone, because Coinshots are pretty hard to drop, and fairly common.

Easy enough: have a breakaway ceiling with concealed spikes in it, and repulsing magnet below the floor. Granted, it probably still only works on people with magnetic Metalminds.

I wonder if one could make a magnet, but still allomatically inert, alloy of aluminum...

Would the delay even be noticeable with a near-light speed process of electron transfer, though, however complex the signal it conveyed?

To be fair, those exploded when Pulled, and so might go off too far away. In a modern era, with the tech to make real exploding bullets that go off upon impact, it becomes a bit nastier.

Uh, as Spook helpfully demonstrated in Hero Of Ages, fire does not work nearly as well on pewter burners as you might expect. Also, I'm pretty sure most designs include metal. And Aluminum and napalm mix burningly, so that's not a terribly helpful option.

Flames rising off of burning wood are one thing, and actually having napalm (2-3 times hotter) on your skin is another. And you'd need some pretty small shavings of aluminum (and iron) to make thermite. I don't deny that getting a working Hazekiller Flamethrower would be hard, though.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

In Scadrial, metal is power. So I do not think that the Tears could be burned. However, if you ground them up, you might be able to alloy them with the other sixteen metals and get a burnable result.

Myself, I had been wondering if you could charge Atium crystals with Stormlight.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

While we're on the subject of Mist Snapping, I've been meaning to ask: did we ever learn whether the Mists still Snap people in Alloy of Law?

It wouldn't be too far a stretch to say that Wax could probably outrun a train if he had enough steel to burn. (I'm assuming that allomantic steel is fairly cheap.)

Yet again, Wax does outrun a train, seemingly easily. (He could not outrun a telegraph, but that's a whole different issue) the debate of Coinshots versus mundane messengers is one of price and availability - Pony Express riders could just be any orphans, after all, but Allomancers know they could get good wages in several fields. The same goes for Steel Ferrings, Thugs you expect to Drag, etc.

So, I suspect that both super-couriers and more mundane ones are used.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Interestingly, Kurk, looking back at that conversation, I tend to read it in exactly the opposite way: the sixteen metals from the Ars Arcanum are all known, but people are confused by ancient references to Atium and Malatium.

I suppose both are plausible, though.

Points about fiberglass and polyester resin - it's not flammable (though it will melt at 400+F) after it has cured, you can make that stuff in basically any form you want, and it's freaky sturdy. I'm making a few things out of this stuff right now, actually.

I will make another: It's useless for Hemalurgy, since that art requires metal.

Also, it would be the odd flamethrower which does not reach 400F (Napalm burns at something like 1500F, or 800c for people who like real units), and it study, but probably too brittle to make good bladed weapons (certainly, I've seen plenty of sailboat rudders made of it snap in half).

Some sort of high-grade ceramics might avoid all these problems except the Feruchemy one, once available.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

...stray cats...

You of all people know that any good Hazekiller must be prepared to fight any and all stray cats they meet.

Weeeeeeeeeeell... I am not so sure.

Until the Lord Ruler's death, Ruin seemed more limited in his actions, and even if he weren't, he can't pull together and end the world until he's been let out of the Well of Ascension.

That said, for what Leviathan is describing, it would make more sense to me for there to be a hidden cache from some dead House, Mistborn, or Kandra (think like Zane's stash, but much bigger) that someone finds - in the case of a defunct Noble House, that could be decades or centuries of Atium, carefully hidden in the middle of nowhere, for some modern-day baddie to discover. For bonus points, said baddie could pretend privately that they had a secret Atium Mine, to further confuse the matter.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Short answer: I don't know. You'd have to handwave it just like the other light effects were handwaved. A real mess is what it would be.

I know! That's why it's such a cool thought experiment!

As you say, you need a blade thicker than his neck (like a koloss blade, perhaps?) or you need a way to pull his head clean off at the same time you cut it.

Finally, a legitimate use for the FLYING GUILLOTINE!

I think a pump-pressurized flamethrower could clear a room of coinshots, lurchers, tineyes, and pewterarms quite easily. I submit this as my defensive weapon of choice.

As for building defenses into my mansion, I think an absurdly powerful electromagnet beneath select parts of the floor would do nicely. Just imagine it: a misting with fresh metal reserves strolling confidently through the household. Then SLAP I hit the button and the metals in his belly are either ripped clean out or yank him through the floor. Either way, he is at my mercy.

I'm not sure there's an electromagnet strong enough to pick up a few metal flakes in someone's stomach, but that would be devastating against Ferrings.

And a stead spray of napalm is great, for as long as you can keep it up. It would be a little grim, living in your all-cement manor house (wood or plastics would get ruined by the napalm, and of course you're not using metal), but it's certainly a strong defense - Coinshots and Sliders could get some advantages to avoiding the stream, but even for them it would be a credible threat. I think your biggest hole is long-ranged attackers in general and Tineyes in particular, who just never come within napalm range. And when your biggest weakness is "smart people are too afraid to come close," your probably onto something.

I still don't think you're likely to beat a Gold Compounder this way, though. You'll run out of fuel before they run out of healing (fuel is why flamethrowers tend not to be practical weapons of war, along with the range limits). Also, it would take some work to make a flamethrower with no metal parts, though I guess there's always aluminum...

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Complacency is huge, and almost inevitable when you have 8-32 superpowers. Mistborn fights are all about trying to mislead your opponent long enough to take them down (or who has the Atium, depending).

Hazekilling a Misting or Twinborn requires a more focused approach, since your foe is in the habit of approaching every situation with their power. Thus, you either want to mislead them (as thee Coinshot Rounds showed, Vin's trick works as well on a Misting as an Inquisitor), or presenting a situation they cannot easily answer with their powers:

* Against a Slider, try throwing a short-fused stick of dynamite. If they stop time before it gets there, then that will keep them thinking about the bomb, rather than how to attack you. If it lands inside their bubble, then they're really in a bind, since if they throw it out, it will probably still be close enough to get them in its blast when they drop the bubble. Either way, the bubble keeps them from easily escaping the blast. (Sure, they could pull the fuse, but it's hard to think that fast when you're used to people all being slowed down).

* Against a Thug, try using weapons coated in an anti-coagulant, then running away. With any luck, they won't notice they're bleeding until they've really exacerbated their wounds.

* If you have an area you want to keep Lurchers, Coinshots, and Mistborn out of, construct it using wooden pegs and stone nails (such building do exist in the real world), but with a few strategically placed pieces of metal which, when pushed/pulled, set off alarms, get shot off far from the building (so as to surprisingly provide no purchase as Anchors), and other nasty tricks.

* If you, like me, are terrified by the possibilities of Steelminds, set up rooms with movable floors (since their minds are not sped up to match), or hallways filled with razor-thin wire they might not see (but beware of Coishots cutting you with that wire). If you expect to meet them where you cannot control the place as much, bring buckets of tar, and coat the floor.

* Wax needing to deal with the chandelier before saving Wayne makes me think tht non-metal-fastened ropes just strung randomly around the ceiling of a large room would really cut don on how much advantage a Coinshot could take of it. Someone with an Ironmind might be able to climb them impressively, though.

* Here's an idea I'd like to pitch to Ranette: A Hazekiller gun similar to a LeMat, with one set of chambers that fire normal rounds, and an aluminum round in the extra barrel. When engaged, it fires both barrels at once, so that while your enemy smugly Pushes or Pulls the bullet, they don't realize you fired two until it's too late. This has the advantage of working just as well on Pullers as Pushers.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Oooh! Maybe on this world, Tesla will beat Edison, and we'll actually get some of his awesome inventions!

I like to imagine that the Words Of Founding have a line which reads "alternating current is in every meaningful way the superior to direct current as soon as the technology to utilize it is available. Do not waste time on this. (Also, make sure all your famous inventors are really the ones inventing most of their claims.)"