NutiketAiel

LOL. Well, the powers could be Lerasium alloys as well. Where does the info about all Atium alloys being temporal come from?

Thank you, Kurkistan. :-) I agree that trying to assign attributes to the various god-metal alloys is largely futile, but there's no harm in theorizing, especially when Brandon has said that the solution to this problem will involve powers that we haven't seen yet.

Which is part of the reason that, as I note above, I think allomancy using an as-yet-unknown metal or pair of metals is more likely than feruchemy to produce the desired effect.

My pet theory was always that Allomantic FTL involved Mass Effect style mass shifting, but an Alcubierre Drive is a much more elegant theory. However, I think we're limiting ourselves by considering it only in terms of Feruchemy and Feruchemical devices. After all, every physical and cognitive Feruchemical power that we know of works on a purely internal basis. The ones that work, or seem to work, directly on those outside the Feruchemist's own body (Duralumin and Chromium, and possibly Aluminum and Nicrosil depending on how exactly they function) are all spiritual in nature, not physical. This assumes that the Terris are correct in their classification system, but the four metals that they classify as spiritual do seem to have a very strong spiritual basis. Chromium is the big possible exception, but it depends on exactly what they mean by "Luck," and we simply have no example of the power functioning from which to draw conclusions. Of particular note is that Feruchemical Iron does not even allow the Feruchemist to affect their own metalminds, making actual "weightlessness" (or "masslessness" if you prefer) a theoretical exercise at best, since the Feruchemist would always need to be in physical contact with a source of iron, which would still have mass. However, I digress. Allomancy, on the other hand, has a great many powers, physical and mental (and possibly spiritual, depending on how you classify certain things) that directly affect persons or things outside the Allomancer's own body. I think that it is more likely that one (or more) of the unknown metals (that is to say, an as yet unseen Atium or Lerasium alloy) allows an Allomancer to alter the relative mass of objects outside their own body. There are many possible ways for this power (or powers) to function; I have outlined a few that occur to me below: 1. A metal that allows an Allomancer to transfer mass from one object to another. This transference could be either permanent or only last as long as the Allomancer kept burning, depending on how the power functioned. Both temporary and permanent transfers have points for and against, and either could be in keeping with what we have seen of Allomancy so far. 2. A set of paired metals, one of which allows the Allomancer to reduce the mass of an object, another that allows the Allomancer to increase the mass of an object. Again, the effect could be either permanent or temporary, but temporary is far more likely given conservation of mass issues. 3. A metal that allows an Allomancer to transfer mass from an object to herself, and back again, or vice versa, allowing an Allomancer to transfer her own mass to an object and back again. This would almost certainly only last as long as the Allomancer was burning. Hypothetically, this could also allow an Allomancer to shuttle mass using her body as a medium; i.e., take mass from Object A into the Allomancer's body, then transfer that mass from the Allomancer's body to Object B. 4. A set of paired metals, one of which allows the Allomancer to take mass from an object into her own body, another that allows the Allomancer to take her own mass and transfer it into an object. Once again, this would certainly only last as long as the Allomancer was burning. Note that the mass shuttling noted in #3 would not be possible except for a Mistborn, or someone who had both abilities through some other means, i.e. Hemalurgy. 5. A set of paired metals, one of which allows the Allomancer to create a "bubble" of reduced mass, another that allows the Allomancer to create a "bubble" of increased mass. 6. A single metal that allows the Allomancer to create two bubbles simultaneously- one of reduced mass, the other of proportionally increased mass (i.e., the mass would be "transferred" from one bubble to the other). Yes, more bubbles. We already have two metals that can compress and expand time in bubbles. The idea of having metals that can compress and expand space (i.e. mass) in bubbles is a natural extension of that, and fits rather elegantly (if I do say so myself) into the principles of Sanderson's Third Law. Option 5 (which I think would be expressed as the alloys Atium-Cadmium and Atium-Bendalloy, with Cadatium increasing mass and Bendatium decreasing mass) would fit well within our understanding of Allomancy and would solve some of the theoretical problems of an Alcubierre Drive in the Cosmere (not to mention fitting within Brandon's word that Allomantic FTL involves abilities we haven't seen yet). Option 5 does have a few major problems, the most notable of which is its apparent violation of conservation of mass- even within temporary bubbles, the extra mass has to come from somewhere, or go somewhere. Option 6 solves that problem, but introduces others- how does the mass get from Bubble A to Bubble B? Does it travel faster than light to get between bubbles? If not, would the application of Allomantic Bendalloy bubbles between Bubble A and Bubble B solve that problem? Or perhaps the violation can be justified since it is only temporary- it cannot affect a permanent change to the amount of mass in the Cosmere, so conservation of mass is not violated. Option 2 runs into the same conservation of mass issues, though options 1, 3 and 4 avoid it by directly transferring mass either from one object to another, or between objects and the allomancer. Other possibilities exist. For example, we know that matter can be moved into the cognitive realm. The temporary transfer of mass from the physical realm to the cognitive realm would also be a plausible means of solving the conservation of mass problems inherent with Option 5. I have no idea what effect this would have on the inhabitants of the cognitive realm, which adds a potentially interesting dynamic to the idea of allomantic FTL- the idea that it is environmentally destructive to the denizens of the cognitive realm in the areas where it is used (the local spren, in other words). Though, now that I think about it, the very fact that matter can move in and out of the cognitive realm lends support to the idea that a temporary increase or decrease in mass would not be a violation of conservation of mass in the cosmere, since technically the mass of the physical realm is reduced every time someone or something is moved into the cognitive realm, and remains reduced until that person returns to the physical realm. That also raises the question of what happens if a person's mass changes while they are in the cognitive realm. I smell another theory there, but that's a discussion for another time. So, in any case, there are numerous ways to get around conservation of mass problems. I think the main remaining question is, as Tempus pointed out, whether negative mass can exist in the Cosmere, which is a question that we cannot answer. But, as it stands, my theory is that Allomantic FTL will function through the application of Allomantic Cadatium and Bendatium, possibly assisted by allomantic Nicrosil, to create bubbles of negative and positive mass ahead and behind a vessel through the principles of an Alcubierre Drive. This could function through the use of mistborn, mistings or allomantic devices. I was sitting next to the table when you asked him this, Kurkistan, if you'll recall. You interpret it as meaning that time bubbles are necessary for Allomantic FTL, but I think this theory would also qualify. :-D

Horray!! Thank you. :-)

I have seen that the new Terris sourcebook for the Mistborn Adventure Game is available in digital format on Drive Thru RPG. Has anyone heard if a print or print on demand edition is going to be released? I'd hate to waste money on some PDF if a real book is going to be available at some point.

It's not just a matter of "sealing." Those spikes go most of the way through where the Inquisitors' brains should be. They may look more human, but the Inquisitors are every bit as alien as the Kandra and Koloss. They aren't just getting new powers- the Hemalurgy is altering their anatomy. They're a new species, no longer human. I quote Hero of Ages Epigraph 41: And Epigraph 44: An individual with just a single spike, like Vin, Spook, Zane or Penrod, is obviously less extensively changed. However, Penrod's case gives us particular insight into the issue- the single spike literally pierced his heart. He was physically fine when it was in place, but began to die when the surgeons tried to remove it. Obviously the hemalurgic spike was either changing his anatomy to accommodate itself while it was present in his body (as with the Inquisitors, but on a much smaller scale), or it was actively preventing him from suffering the harmful effects of its presence while it was in his body. Given that we already know that hemalurgic spikes can work in such a manner (and in accordance with Sanderson's Third Law), I suspect the former is the correct explanation. In other words, while the spike is in a person's body, it makes whatever physiological changes are necessary to keep the person alive and healthy with the spike in its current position, whether that is as dramatic as rearranging organs, or as simple as warding off infection at the wound site. ...But you'll STILL put your eye out. :-P

You'll put your eye out!

Ugh. And frownie face for Quiver for making me think of Superboy Prime. :-(

It's an interesting idea. I can't say that I agree with it at this point, but I'd love to see the arguments for it. Does anyone know where we can find that theory?

He may be able to learn some things, but he remains fundamentally stunted. The human emotions and experiences that make "evil" more than just a word are totally alien to him. He's gotten better at talking Vasher into stuff, but that doesn't mean he really understands.

Honestly, I doubt it. An awakened object simply doesn't have the emotional or moral background that a human would. Vasher has spent centuries with Nightblood, and the thing hasn't gotten any better. That tells me that the very concept of endowing an inanimate object with sentience is inherently flawed. It simply can't act and react the way a sentient person is supposed to. You're really going to use 1000 breaths to awaken a saucepan? I don't think this comparison tracks. Syl and Pattern were already sentient beings in the Cognitive Realm. They "traveled" to the Physical Realm and bonded with a human, allowing them to regain the sentience they already had. Nightblood is an artificially constructed personality. He was never sentient before the process of being Awakened. It's a totally different thing. Nightblood's entire persona, his whole being, is based around the command "destroy evil." A command that he is not equipped to understand. It's almost like shardic intent. Over time, the intent of the shard warps the personality of the shardholder. Well, with Nightblood, there was no personality to warp- the intent is all there is. There's nothing to give it context, no human emotions or compassion to interpret it. The entire personality is based around those two words- and one of them is an abstraction that it can't understand, and hasn't been able to learn to understand despite centuries of trying. A single command, no matter what it is, is not enough to build a functioning person. Any attempt to do so is, in my opinion, doomed to failure. The best we can hope for would be some kind of idiot savant persona, something that isn't really functional, but isnt really harmful, either. More likely, we'd just end up with more Nightbloods. Which is, of course, exactly what Vasher was afraid of.

You'd get a sword that wants to protect anyone helpless. That would probably include changing sides in a battle to protect whichever happens to be losing at the time. Not to mention more common situations, like killing a parent to protect a child from their discipline, or freeing criminals because they are in prison and therefore can't protect themselves from the police. And that's assuming that a piece of awakened metal would even make the proper distinction between sentient and non-sentient life. I can see it attacking farmers to protect the cattle that cannot protect themselves, or maybe even lumberjacks to protect the trees that cannot protect themselves. So, yeah, I foresee disaster. I don't think there is any command, no matter how cleverly phrased, that would result in anything but disaster. A sword simply does not have the compassion, the emotional context, to interpret its Command in an appropriate way. It would remain a mockery of human life.

Given how Hoid seems to have no problem getting from planet to planet in time to be there for every novel he wants to be in, and that the (presumably mortal) members of the 17th Shard (not us, that OTHER 17th Shard) are also able to hop from planet to planet within their lifetimes, I don't think this would be much of a factor. Of course, Hoid travels through the cognitive realm, and we don't precisely know how the 17th Sharders are doing it. I suppose that it is possible that the shardholders are confined to a slower form of interstellar travel, but we've seen no real evidence of it, and I don't know why they would be limited in this way. As for millennia of bickering... remember that the shardholders we know of so far, including Ati and Leras, were human. It's one thing to set a thousand year plan into motion because you're, say, trapped in the Well of Ascension and have no choice. It's another to bicker with someone for thousands of years and refuse to act in all that time while also free. Shardic intent is a factor in this to be sure, but remember that Ati and Leras would have been holding their shards for a much shorter time at this period, and so would presumably not have been as warped by the intents of their shards yet. So, while thousands of years of bickering are certainly possible, I don't consider it to be likely. I think there are two good explanations- the first is that Preservation and Ruin created non-sentient life on Scadrial first, and only added humans later. I believe that the text supports this, though I don't have my books in front of me to find a reference. I recall, however, the decision to make sentient life was a separate decision. The second explanation (which can coexist with the first) is that the Well of Ascension has been used multiple times. Just because we only know of two uses (Rashek and Vin) doesn't mean that there weren't more before. The Lord Ruler did a fantastic job of twisting culture and history to his own benefit during his reign. I would not be at all surprised if part of that campaign was to eliminate all myths and legends of previous uses of the Well. With that in mind, humanity could have stretched back for quite a few millennia, going through multiple cycles before Ruin was finally able to corrupt Preservation's chosen hero (and he failed anyway thanks to Rashek. Yay Lord Ruler!). But that's just Scadrial. My main problem with your theory is this- what kind of god lets people carve pieces off of it? A singluar event makes much more sense to me. Whether Adonalsium allowed it to happen, or whether it was somehow against its will, it happened all at once. If it was against his will, maybe someone could get away with it the first time, but I would think the second time someone tried, the god that was still composed of 15/16ths of its ultimate power would put a stop to it. On the other hand, if Adonalsium was a willing participant in its own shattering, then it still makes sense for it to happen all at once. Presumably, its personality would change as each shard and its accompanying intent was removed. Who knows how that would affect its mind, or its willingness to participate? Once its Honor was removed, what would hold it to prior agreements? Or perhaps its Devotion to the plan would be stripped from him. If it did happen, though (and I still think it unlikely), I think the "Survival" shard would have to have been the first to go. Removing the godhead's survival instinct might make it more pliable to having pieces carved off of it in the future. I imagine a being with every aspect of its personality except the desire to survive would be pretty damned depressed. "Oh, why do I even bother surviving? I have no drive to. I hate living like this. Why don't you go ahead and take away my hate? ... OK, that's better. Thank you, mysterious Yolen people."

LOL, that's a very good point. It's certainly possible.

Hmmm. Interesting idea. However, if it came from meeting the Heralds who abandonned the pact, that only accounts for 9 fools. What about Taln, who only recently returned to Roshar?

Thanks. :-) I never have as much time as I'd like to be on the forums, but it's good to be back and participating.I suspect that the similarity in appearance is due to the fact that both the spren and the mist are undergoing the same process. If we assume that, it makes perfect sense for the descriptions to be nearly identical. As for why they specifically look "vine-like," that's harder to answer. I do have a theory, though. Take a look at the descriptions of awakened objects on Nalthis, in Warbreaker. When possible, they tend to take the form of living things, even when not strictly necessary to perform their functions. For example, a tapestry ordered to lift the awakener took the general shape of a hand, complete with veins, rather than simply wrapping around the awakener. The investiture (biochromatic breath in this case) was inclined to take the form of a living thing- more specifically, a human, as the breath comes from humans. I suspect that it is the natural tendency of manifestations of investiture to take on the semblance of life when they are able, when manifesting in the physical realm. If the investiture is derived from a particular form of life, like breath, it will tend to take a form similar to that life form if it can. If it is not derived from a particular form of physical realm life, I theorize that it will take a more generic form that imitates some life form that is condusive to the intended function. The tendrils of mist were reaching out on Scadrial; on Roshar, they were stretching out to form a long blade. Reaching, stretching- in both cases, a vine is a life form that would exemplify that motion. We know of a profusion of vines on Roshar, and we have no reason to believe that vines didn't exist on pre-Ascension or post-Final Ascension Scadrial. Plus, I think I recall a description of ivy vines in one of the cultivated gardens in the first Mistborn trilogy. Renoux Manor maybe? Even if there are no vines on Scadrial during the Final Empire, Leras almost certainly was familiar with the concept of vines. My point being, a vine life form was available for the gaseous investiture to emulate on both Roshar and Scadrial.

Actually, my thought was always that the Ten Fools referred to the Heralds themselves, in a kind of inverse way. I mean, we have these positive aspects of the Heralds that everybody is supposed to emulate. I believe that the attributes of the Ten Fools are the inverse of these properties, told as a cautionary tale in the mythology. Whether the stories of the Ten Fools have a basis in actual actions of the Heralds in the distant past or not, I don't know, but whatever the Vorins think, the Heralds are human, so they must act foolish sometimes. ;-) Let's look at what we know. We have Eshu, who acts knowledgeable about subjects of which he is ignorant in front of experts (or something like that, I don't have the quote in front of me). Sounds to me like the opposite of Battar, who's attributes are Wisdom and Caring, or perhaps Paliah, who is Learned and Giving, or maybe the Guiding aspect of Ishar. Shalash might make the most sense, since pretending to be an expert in front of actual experts is dishonest, and definitely a failed application of creativity. Then we have Cabine, who acts like a child even though he is grown. Sounds like the opposite of Talenel, who is Dependable and Resourceful, or maybe Kalak, the Resolute Builder. It could also be Jezrien, since being childish is kind of the opposite of Protecting and Leading people. These are pure guesses on my part, but I think Shalash and Jezrien make the most sense. Hmmm... if Eshu = Shalash and Cabine = Jezrien, then the book in which we learned about the Fool is also the book dedicated to the Order that follows the corresponding Herald. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we continued to learn the attributes of one Fool in each book. ;-)

Why, thank you. :-)

The Aimians do need to be accounted for, but we have so little information about them it is difficult to form a working theory. Based on what little we know right now, I believe that the Aimians are not originally native to Roshar. However, that is entirely speculation on my part and I have no data to back this up. It's just a gut feeling. Ultimately, we need more information. However, for the record, we do have one example of a world with three native sentient life forms- Yolen. There are (or were?) three sentient races on Yolen- Humans, Shodel and Dragons. And Yolen was populated before the Shattering. So, if I am wrong in my guess about the Aimians and they are originally native to Roshar, it does not preclude the idea that the Listeners are also pre-Shattering natives of Roshar, since the one pre-Shattering inhabited world we know of had three species on it. So, food for thought I guess.

I believe that it's related to the different ways that shards manifest in the physical realm. On Scadrial, we see Preservation manifested in the physical realm in three different states: Solid- Beads of Lerasium Liquid- The Well of Ascension Gaseous- Mist/Deepness We also see Ruin in all three of those states: Solid- Atium Beads Liquid- The lake in the mountains of pre-Lord Ruler Terris, encountered by Alendi & co on their way to the Well of Ascension Gaseous- The black smoke Vin and Elend walk through in the antechamber of the Well of Ascension We also see the shardpool of Devotion on Sel (the pool in the mountain above Elantris), and we know for a fact that Devotion has been splintered. Therefore, it stands to reason that the shards, or portions thereof, are capable of manifesting in the physical realm in solid, liquid or gaseous states. We also know that majority of the Spren are splinters of Honor or Cultivation, and that those who are not are splinters of Adonalsium himself (Or is it Himself? Itself? What pronouns do we conventionally use for Adonalsium, anyway?). Therefore, I do not find the similarity unusual at all. Indeed, it should be expected. Remember Sanderson's Third Law: In this context, it makes perfect sense to me. My theory is that the spren are using the gaseous form as part of a transitional state. That is to say, immaterial -to- gaseous -to- solid, but that's pure speculation on my part. Hell, it could even run the gamut and be immaterial -to- gaseous -to- liquid -to- solid; remember, we have numerous examples of shardblades being described as wet or dew covered just after they manifest. I've usually taken the assumption that this is simply condensation from the "mist" state of the transformation, but it could be a remnant of a brief time the blade is in a liquid state between mist and solidity. This change in states, incidentally, is something we have also most likely seen before. The Lord Ruler moved Ruin's shardpool underground, at what became the Pits of Hathsin. The liquid coalescing there, then, is what probably led to the beads of atium forming in the Hathsin geodes. The specifics of the transformation doesn't really matter, though. The initial post was about the similarities in description, and whether they were a coincidence or not. As I've outlined here, a coincidence seems unlikely- they seem to be in keeping with what we know about the various states of shardic manifestations in the physical realm.

I thought they just wanted to feel pretty...

Speaking of speculation, I wonder what kind of changes one would have to forge in themselves to enable entry to the Cognitive Realm...

Well, thank you all for hearing me out. I knew mine was the minority opinion, but I felt the need to voice it anyway. I appreciate receiving a respectful hearing, and wish you the best of luck in implementing this new idea, and in continuing to administer the Coppermind.

Honestly? You have not. In fact, looking at your examples, I am even more convinced that including theories is detrimental to the Coppermind. I think this comes down to a fundamental difference in views between you and I about the purpose of the wiki. You seem to be dedicated to providing a "comprehensive" view of the various subjects. That is a laudable goal, but I do not think it is the right goal for the wiki. I think the goal of the Coppermind should be to present facts. By presenting only things that we know to be true, whether from the books, the annotations or the WoB, we provide the reader with information, then allow them to draw their own conclusions, come up with their own theories. By putting theories, guesses and speculation on the Coppermind, we lend those theories undue weight and rob the reader of the chance to come to them on their own. The bolded part is the jump in logic, the part that is not directly confirmed by Brandon, but pretty implied, in my opinion. This paragraph provides critical information on the subject of Allomancy. Do you know how many people, back in the day, were confused by the question of why, exactly, Allomancy is of Preservation? A great deal. That was why I had to include this paragraph of explanation, and it does require a small leap. In fact, the argument I present here is, in fact, the argument I originally presented in my Principle of Intent. Yes, it is a small supposition, but I do think it gives a good context on why things work. The cosmere is very logical, and if a person comes out of an article thinking that something does not make sense, we've failed. The bolded part provides your idea on why allomancy is of Preservation. It is certainly a reasonable theory, but it is just that- a theory. Even if it were a universally accepted theory (which I am sure it is not), it would still be just a theory. The article would be perfectly fine without your theory in it. The cosmere is very logical, but that doesn't mean that we are always right in our understanding of that logic. If a person comes out of an article thinking that something does not make sense, that means that there is insufficient information available for that person to come to a conclusion about how it works. We haven't failed. Nobody has failed. There is not failure there- simply one reader not drawing the same conclusion that you did. If, on the other hand, every person who reads that article comes out with the exact same theory that you did because your theory is in there, then we have failed. In that case, the theory wasn't arrived at independently; the reader saw the theory and concluded that that was the only logical explanation, rather than trying to think of one for themselves and possibly coming up with a new approach to the problem. Yes, the current Realmatic Theory article is trash. You know what would be worse? Padding out the article with paragraphs and paragraphs of unproven theory and speculation. There is no way to write a good, comprehensive article on Realmatic Theory right now because we don't have comprehensive information on realmatic theory. The article we have right now is barely more than a stub, but at least the information we have in there is composed entirely of facts we know to be true. An article filled with theories would do a disservice to the reader. This does provide something extra to the article, and gives readers something to think about. In this case, there is no citation, and it's pure speculation. But you know, I'm very okay with that, because maybe casual readers skipped over that line, when they should probably be quite concerned with it or its implications. The extra thing this provides to the article is an unproven guess. I don't think that the wiki's purpose is to give the readers something to think about. I think the wiki's purpose is to give the reader facts and let them come to their own theories. Sure, Miles' men of red and gold could be the people from the southern continent. They could also be worldhoppers, or a secret society within their society, or a new race secretly crafted with hemalurgy. Do I think these theories are likely? No. I think the men and gold are the inhabitants of the southern continent. But I would never put my supposition on the Coppermind. It leads a reader to that assumption, rather than letting them come to it, or some other theory, on their own. I see the Coppermind's job as to present facts, not to lead readers by the nose to our pet theories. Especially when there is no real evidence for or against a theory, which, in this case, there isn't as far as I know. It's pure guesswork, unless I've missed something. Again, good ideas for someone to think about, and totally adds to the article. Again, a guess. This seriously detracts from the article by, once again, leading the reader by the nose to one particular theory. There are other possible explanations. This is still not an unreasonable theory. A Day of Recreance article that doesn't put some possibilities of why the Recreance happened is a bad Recreance article. It just doesn't contain all the relevant information a reader might want to know. (However, note this does not contain Words of Radiance knowledge at the moment) A Day of Recreance article that puts unproven possibilities about why the Recreance happened when we have no evidence whatsoever for those possibilities is a bad Recreance article. It contains irrelevant information based on the guesswork of 17th Sharders. A good Recreance article would present the information we have and leave the reader to draw their own conclusions. Even if the theory had merit (which, in this case, i think it does not), it would still be out of place. Indeed; just about all the information in this article is cited to factual sources. This is a fairly good example of an article that gives a good look at what we know of a subject without straying into the realm of theories and guesswork. Besides the title itself, which is necessary because we don't have a canon name for the concept, this article seems OK and probably doesn't even need the theory tag, though it could stand to have a few more citations. Here's the problematic statement: "Presumably their objective is to seek information about the Desolations and the Parshendi. Because of that they put forth the failed attempt to assassinate Jasnah Kholin, who was their main rival in their search." It's a total guess. It has no place in the article. Though I do agree with you, the article is very badly written in its current state. "Truly great"? We don't need great articles, we need factual articles. Our goal should not be beautiful prose, it should be to make the most effective and factual resource for the readers. Brandon can handle the prose. We're not writing novels, we're writing factual articles. You're right, this is a subject we know nothing about. There is nothing wrong with a short article, or even a stub, when we have no good information to fill it. Removing the "speculation" section would allow the article to contain all of the information that we know to be true (or knew to be true at the time it was written) without straying into guesswork, however well founded that guesswork may be. Anyway, I don't have time right now to go through the rest of your examples point by point, but I think you see the gist of where I'm coming from. i can, and absolutely do, say that there should be no theoretical information on the Coppermind. Relevant though you may think it is, it does a disservice to the reader by its very presence. I think that the Coppermind's purpose of being "comprehensive" is secondary to its purpose of presenting factual information. Nothing is being lost by keeping theories off the Coppermind. We still have the theories, and we still discuss them- but HERE, where speculation belongs. Not in our encyclopedia. As I said at the beginning of this post, it comes down to the purpose of the Coppermind. I see the Coppermind as a resource for readers and fans- a place to collect facts, and only facts, in a single, convenient place with appropriate citations for the readers to use on their own, and in their own way. A place where they can go to find information to help them come up with theories, or find support for their theories, or help them rebut theories with factual information. I do not see it as a place where we store information on our own theories, or push those theories on others, however reasonable we may think they are. I suppose that I am in the minority in this opinion. Most of you seem to be fine with including theories on the Coppermind. And that's fine; if that's where the community consensus is, so be it. You don't see me moving through the Coppermind, trying to excise large sections of articles that I think are inappropriate, because it would be inappropriate, disrespectful and counter-productive for me to do so. But I retain my opinion that the inclusion of speculative information is detrimental to the Coppermind and makes it less useful to the readers. I can only hope that I have convinced some of you of the merits of my position.