Ansalem

Not a theory, but one of the things I'm looking forward to the most is learning about the surge of Tension. It's one of the only two we know absolutely nothing about (the other being Cohesion), and Dalinar has it now.

The quote people are saying points to Jasnah because she's a heretic is exactly the quote that I believe rules her out completely. Jasnah proclaims herself as a heretic. Proudly. No one needs "further proof" that she is a heretic (she'll claim it herself to your face if you ask), and she does not care that they think of her that way regardless.

There's no way Jasnah wrote that line.

Also, it could easily be Dalinar or Renarin, too. Both of them could fit if it's written after future events. Dalinar claims God is dead, a heresy. Renarin can see the future, another heresy. Plus, men can write books, too. Gavilar basically wrote his accounts of meeting the Parshendi. They simply do it by dictating to a scribe instead of writing it by their own hand. We can't rule out male authors.

Considering this is Dalinar's book, he is the most obvious author in my mind and Jasnah is not even a possibility.

Just now, Hafrigado said:

So we have Rotspren (deterioration caused by bacteria or fungi) and Decayspren (any deterioration)?

It's feasible at least. I'm not sure I'm sold on the idea myself, just wanted to point out that in terms of definitions, all rot is decay but not all decay is rot.

16 minutes ago, Catladyman said:

Going along with that idea, I like the idea of decayspren bonding with Dustbringers, with rotspen as the cousinspren. However, aren't decay and rot essentially the same thing? In the other cases we have seen, associated types aren't really synonymous. 

No, rot is a sub-category of decay. Decay can happen to anything, think stone crumbling over time or metal rusting away. Rot can only happen to organic matter. Food rots, metal does not rot, but they both decay.

Just now, Nymeros said:

Smart theory....though it doesnt explain why the weeping stopped and then started again or why Stormfather is being so shifty.

Well, I would wager that it's because the Everstorm is messing up the normal weather pattern, too. I read it as the rain stopping and starting again. That could happen because the Everstorm is pushing the clouds away ahead of it as it passes then it starts back up again afterward. But just based off the one mention of it, I couldn't say for sure.

Regular weather is complicated enough, it's pretty hard to guess what's happening when normal weather mixes with magical weather. 

The sapient spren name themselves. Humans may call them something different, though. See Cryptics not liking the name liespren. There's no real reason they need to represent some human-centric concept. Cultivationspren are called that because they name themselves that. Humans may not choose that name for them, they could just as easily name them something like growthspren or vinespren or something less human-centric like that.

That being the case, I suspect humans would probably call the Truthwatcher spren lightspren. That's what I would call them if I saw one. But they may call themselves something else, such as truthspren. Appearing as light due to the concept of truth being a light cast upon the darkness of ignorance. Plus the obvious connection to the surge of Illumination, the name Truthwatcher, and Renarin claiming that he "sees" all having some connection to either truth or light (or both). Not sure how the surge of Progression ties into that, but then I'm not sure how Wyndle represents Abrasion, either.

So my bet for the Truthwatcher spren's name is either truthspren or lightspren.

Also, I agree with @Calderis that inkspren are tied to scholarship and their subspren would be logicspren.

46 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Why the he'll isn't the Stormfather sending highstorms? That used to be his entire shtick.

I'm pretty sure it's still the Weeping. We still don't know for certain the reason the Weeping exists or the reason for the Light Years either for that matter. If you remember, the storm sent at the end of WoR was sent when there wasn't supposed to be one. Given the nature of Investiture, I think the fact that the Stormfather sent that extra storm may have messed up the pattern as well. Most likely the Investiture needs to build back up again before a new storm can be sent which is the reason for Weepings, so I expect the Stormfather can't actually send any storms now. He doesn't have an unlimited amount of Investiture that he can spend on storms. The extra one he sent at the end of WoR was probably all he could do at the time, so now he has to go back to waiting on the Investiture to refill before he can get back to his normal pattern. And if I'm right, the pattern may be off from now on. Storms and Weepings may come a bit later than they have before, although the pattern itself should still be the same once it starts again, just delayed. So they may be without Stormlight for longer than expected.

Of course I could be wrong about all of that.

The ending itself was super satisfying, and the family reunion is really nice to see (so glad momma & daddy Stormblessed are alive). But the overall chapter leaves more questions open than it answered to me. If I had the whole book in front of me I'd consider that a great thing, but since I have to wait another week to maybe get back to Hearthstone... pretty unsatisfying. 

If I were in Roshar right now, the anticipationspren would fill the room.

28 minutes ago, Jess said:

Is it just me, or is this a really weird thing for Jasnah to say? People don't claim she's a heretic; they know she is. She's a professed atheist. She's not shy about it. But the language here is almost defensive, like the author doesn't consider themself a heretic and doesn't like being considered one by others.

I just can't shake the feeling that the hints toward Jasnah being the epigraph author are red herrings. The details are incongruous. Seeing "beyond" Shadesmar, "I thought that I was surely dead"... if that is Jasnah I think it is referring to an event we haven't seen yet, and not anything in WoR.

Yeah, that quote made me say "so not Jasnah, then" when I read it. There's no way that's her writing that. Unless it gets revised in the final print, which could happen I suppose. But as it's written it's 100% not Jasnah.

In order of who I think is most likely: Renarin, Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, anyone else we know, someone we haven't met yet..............Jasnah.

1 hour ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

This would be very interesting.  I'd be really curious to see how books 4 and 5 play out if this happens.  I would guess that conquering Alethkar is somewhere on the Diagram (Isn't Taravangian's goal to eventually conquer the world to save it?  Or at least that a potential goal of his?)

Well, the Diagram did say "you must become king. Of everything."

On 9/3/2017 at 7:26 AM, bridge4 said:

Oh good one. That makes me want to get the graphic audio for it. It's so expensive tho. One day I might cave tho

The Graphic Audio is really good. Not only are they my favorite books, I think they're GA's best work so far (that I've heard at least).

To add to the topic, my favorite scenes have already been mentioned (Honor is dead, duel), so I'll add my second favorite to the list.

Syl standing against the storm trying to shield Kaladin, and then fighting off the deathspren are tied. Makes me choke up every time.

39 minutes ago, Irregular said:

We don't really know if Parshendi can be squires ( they supposedly can't be KR). Personally, I'm waiting for Gaz to squire up

Actually, I'm pretty sure the WoB is that no Parshendi has been a KR before but it is possible (not sure how/where to search those though so someone else will have to tell me if I remember that right, sorry).

I actually think if Adolin becomes a squire it will be under Kaladin. I don't really think he will become a squire at all, but I think Kaladin is a better fit than anyone else. The Windrunners seem to be one of the military wings of the KR and Adolin is a military man. He isn't Bondsmith or Truthwatcher material, I think. Bondsmith looks like more of a leadership role (as in social leadership) and Truthwatcher will probably be more of an advisory/support role I expect. Plus he wants to protect people, although maybe in a bit of a different way than Kaladin, and he believes in doing what is right above what is legal or acceptable to society the same as Syl.

Now, nobody forget to heap praise upon me when Adolin becomes Kaladin's squire. 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And most people miss it. It's common knowledge here, because it's been confirmed. That PoV was Shallan's though and there's no attention brought to it beyond the moment itself.. 

I know a few people who have read the books that aren't on here and none of them have a clue about Renarin and the carvings. They all take the scene with Dalinar's knife as proof he wrote them himself m

We have so many new people here recently, that this is going to surprise a lot of people. 

I've read/listened to it 4 or 5 times now and I only realized Renarin was the one writing the countdown a few days ago when I read a post about it on here. Now it seems so obvious but apparently it isn't.

I think it's because there's so much happening at that point. I thought it was odd but I didn't actually think about it beyond that because of everything else that's going on. I didn't actually think about it being one of those carvings, I just thought Renarin went insane for a second or something.

5 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

@Spicker it wasn't so much as red eyes, but I seem to recall in book one of the characters mention a hateful look (not paranoid/suspicious) in his eyes at one point, which is why I found it suspect. I'll need to search the books again, because i it did find strange, as I was reminded of Papa Davar's behaviour when I read it. It may have been when Elhokar and Dalinar were speaking at one time

There was one time, I think from Adolin's PoV, when Elhokar looked like he was suspicious of him and Dalinar. Adolin started to mention it to Dalinar afterward and Dalinar cut him off saying he would speak to Elhokar about it. Then another time from Dalinar's PoV when he was talking to Elhokar, the King flashed another suspicious look at Dalinar and Dalinar thought that the King was getting worse.

I can't remember specifically where those two things happened. I'm pretty sure the first time was right after the chasmfiend hunt when Elhokar was asking about the strap or it might have been when they were reporting back about the strap a little later. The second one I'm not sure about. The scene sticks out pretty clearly in my mind but I can't place what larger scene it was a part of. I do think the King and Dalinar were alone then, though.

But it did definitely happen at least twice.

There are too many Radiants in one family. What makes the Kholins so special? There are already 3, there's potential for 2 more, plus Gavilar was on his way before he died.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Kholins.

Is there any evidence, WoB or in the books, that says the bond HAS to start or spren have to appear after the breaking event? I posted last night a theory, in this thread, that the spren are attracted to their people before the person is broken and have a little evidence of that in Dalinar and Jasnah, possibly Shallan as well. It would explain why Jasnah apparently had just started experiencing effects from Ivory's presence in the prologue but there is little evidence of her being already broken.

I would say we have evidence of it with Kaladin as well, although maybe not as strong. But Syl tells him that she was looking for him when he was in Hearthstone and that was before Roshone had even arrived so none of the things that eventually led to his breaking had happened yet. (When he asked her if she was with him when he first picked up the quarterstaff) Of course it might be that she wasn't looking for Kaladin specifically but just looking for anyone to fit the requirements.

lol It's fine. Probably my fault for being too lazy to crop my normal avatar.

Ansalem:

 

Having woken up, I re-read the post I made last night. I came across as much more of a jerk than I really am. I should know better than to post right before bed. I apologize for my tone, though not for the content.

 

I still disagree with you. I've written out three times now a rebuttal to what you've said, and frankly I cannot find ways to say it without seeming insulting. To be fully blunt, I think you've taken your thesis, "Teft knows what he's talking about," and now you're changing and interpreting the evidence to support your thesis, rather than looking at the evidence and allowing conclusions to rise. Showing you that your interpretation is flawed is never going to change your mind, because you will always find a new way to interpret it. You said you were part of the old conversation, so there's really nothing new for me to say. You've brought up no points I didn't address in the old conversation, so rehashing my half will do nothing but increase contention.

Well, I'm not the one who said those things, so...

I would conclude therefore that Kaladin is talented with the spear/quarterstaff, and therefore even without the bond better at combat with one than an average soldier. The Bond does not grant innate skill, but it does enhance Kaladin's innate skill and talent. Kaladin would not be as good a fighter without the Bond. That being said, the Bond does probably make him one of the best fighters in Alethkar if not Roshar. 

Well, considering he took out Szeth, someone who had taken out multiple Shardbearers and a squad of bodyguards in a matter of seconds, I would say Kaladin is very likely the greatest warrior on Roshar at the moment. Unless you count some of the Heralds which I'm not sure if we can just now since we don't actually know their capabilities in the present and without their Blades.

Anyway this is basically what I meant when I said that Oudeis was playing loose with definitions. It's blatantly obvious that Stormlight enhances abilities far beyond normal. Oudeis is saying that this means there is some supernatural addition on top of innate abilities. Personally I don't see what difference there is between that and simply having a more powerful weapon at your disposal. A person with Stormlight is inherently more powerful than an ordinary person of the same skill in the same way that a person with an assault rifle is more powerful than someone with a BB gun.

Are the skills supernaturally enhanced or are the innate skills being applied to a supernatural weapon? And what difference is there either way? The line seems pretty blurry to me. And regardless of which it is, Kaladin is still a master spearman all by himself.

As a side note, I didn't say Kaladin could dodge like that without Stormlight. My point is that his ability to dodge at all comes from his honed instincts and the Stormlight enhances his speed and focus. If he didn't have those instincts the Stormlight wouldn't have made him able to dodge any better than an ordinary person in that situation. But because he does have those instincts the Stormlight enhances that skill beyond normal. Stormlight by itself gives him nothing resembling skill.

That isn't even close to what I'm saying.

 

Teft's statement was clear. The bond can perfect, but it cannot grant skill. Teft was absolutely certain that while Kaladin might be faster, stronger, with more endurance due to the bond, 100% of his skill came from himself, not from the bond. I'm saying we know, for a fact, that's not true. Sure, he's trained a ton, for years, and even when his supernatural talent is stripped from him he's still got his training to fall back on. But Teft was wrong. A portion of Kaladin's skill came from the bond.

 

 

 

Nope. Teft is unequivocal. The Bond might enhance Kaladin's physical attributes, but it cannot grant any skill at all. And from the very first time Kal picked up a staff, Syl's bond was there to make him supernaturally good. The very first time he ever fought, in his entire life, without supernatural skill was when he jumped into a chasmfiend's mouth. That was his first experience in literally ever fighting without magical talent.

 

Eh... It is technically the case that Teft knows some things most people do not. The problem is, he also THINKS he knows a bunch of stuff about which he is flat wrong. I would much rather someone like Sigzil, who knows absolutely nothing, but is able to start building real knowledge from actual data, as opposed to someone like Teft, who has a great many things he is sure is right, when something like 75% of them are wrong. Better to be unsure, then sure-but-wrong.

 

Of course, best ever is someone like Jasnah, who has dug through a great many records, does her own tests, and is trained in how to separate fact from fiction from ancient reports.

I feel like you're playing pretty loose with definitions. You're saying that Teft is wrong to say that Kaladin's skill improves by the Bond because some of Kaladin's skill comes from the Bond. Teft and you are both right. Actually I would say that Teft is more right than you are.

If you are right that some portion of Kaladin's skill is directly from the Bond rather than the Bond improving his natural talents then that would mean any non-warrior who has a Bond should automatically be a more skilled fighter than average. This is clearly not the case. Renarin is still clumsy despite training by a sword master. The way Syl describes it is perfectly apt. Having a Bond might make you predisposed to achieving a higher level of skill but you still have to put in the actual work. Kaladin's skill is all Kaladin, anything he does beyond that is adaptation to a new tool. He killed the chasmfiend without the Bond, something a trained full Shardbearer would have difficulty doing. When he dances with the wind it's nothing more than years of trained instinct guided by heightened senses in the moment. I know he says he feels like he could dodge with his eyes closed, but notice that he doesn't actually close his eyes.

Also, nowhere does it show that the first time he picked up that quarterstaff that there was anything supernatural about his skill. He got beat pretty soundly. Just because it felt right to hold doesn't mean anything. Some people are just naturally more inclined to certain activities than others. When a child musical prodigy with synesthesia sits down at a piano and plays a melody the first time, you don't equate it with supernatural aid. Which is exactly what Syl meant. She said herself that she wasn't there, she was still searching for him at the time. 

If you are familiar with skill floors and skill ceilings, the Bond raises the skill ceiling but not the skill floor.

When Taravangian wrote the Diagram, he knew things he couldn't have possibly known from just sitting in his room. 

No, he didn't. Whatever information he had before that day was all the information he had on that day. He didn't magically gain knowledge he didn't already have, he just became superhumanly intelligent, so he made connections he otherwise wouldn't have been able to make.

Or at least, that's what Taravangian himself believes. Whether or not that's actually the case is yet to be shown.

I don't think he's a Sliver, though, because that isn't a one time thing. Besides, why would Cultivation give her Shard to Taravangian for even a brief moment if she intended to pick it back up again? That's insanely risky, he could easily have just kept it.

Well in the plains some bridgemen are says to glow from stormlight, so i suppose that they are a squire and no little-surgebinder.

 

Then seems that Lopen don't have a Spren-bond, or at least he never speaks with is "spren", Lopen thinks to could use the stormlight to put somebody at the wall. The only Radiant with the Adesion power are Windrunner and Bondsmith.

I think we could put out the Bondsmith of the discussion, and Syl says "I'm the only Honorspren, to came in the Physical Realm".

 

Maybe is not a 100% sure prove, but at least I think is more plausible for Lopen to be a squire.

PS: Sorry for the poor English

All true, but if he is somehow a full Radiant and not just a squire, him thinking he can stick someone to a wall doesn't mean he actually could. He might be from a different Order and not know it yet. The only Surgebinding powers he knows about are Kaladin's so of course he would just assume he would have the same ones. People in this world know basically nothing about the Knights Radiant and Surges.

He is probably a squire, though.

Brandon has used the word "sapient" for this distinction.

As should everyone else. People almost always mean sapient when they say sentient.

Sentient means aware of your environment, or able to feel or perceive things. Anything with even a rudimentary brain is sentient. Gnats are sentient. Worms are sentient. Technically, your PC might be sentient depending on how strictly you want to define it.

Sapient means of at least human level intelligence. Although you could probably argue it out to be a bit broader than that. Some apes might be sapient, for example, because they are capable of some level of abstract thought. Humans are just a convenient mile marker more than a strict threshold. Intelligence is awfully fuzzy.

Note that neither one of these words actually means self-aware. Theoretically a sapient being could be non-sentient or not self-aware, though that seems incredibly unlikely in actuality. The three concepts are separate and could exist independently, though.

Well, provoking hatred from others doesn't necessarily mean provoking their hatred toward you. It could just as easily mean that Odium inspires others to hate each other instead.