mirahound

Aiyaiyai, what monster have I created? This is a forum about a series of books we all love. There's no need to get nasty if we have differing opinions. If you want to fight it out, please find somewhere else to do it.

Personally I would like Syl to be his partner, but that would be impossible. Anyway, I just finished that chapter where he rode the horse with "spunk", looking back, I can conclude that Jenet is Adolin's previous girl. I would not want to see Kaladin getting Adolin's "left-overs" - no offense intended.

I can definitely see the concern, but from the little we've seen of Jenet, I personally wouldn't feel like she was "left-overs". At least, she certainly wouldn't let Kaladin see her like that. 

So, I know I'm totally opening up an explosive topic here, but I'm curious. Is there anyone else that kinda ships Kaladin with Jenet (the woman in charge of Dalinar's horses, that started throwing rocks at Adolin)? I just think it would be funny, considering the way she was totally unimpressed by Captain Stormblessed. On a more serious note (or as serious as this topic can be), I think Kaladin needs a wife who will challenge him. Obviously Jenet has no problem with this ("You're the one they call Stormblessed? You need a haircut). 

Granted, we haven't seen much of her at all, and this is more a crack theory than anything, but what think you?

I just reread the Jasnah WoR prologue, and I actually think she did break when her father died. She was obviously hurt by it and didn't seem broken to me before, although I know that's not concrete. I know the biggest argument against this is the belief she had already bonded Ivory, but this was clearly the first time she'd visited Shadesmar and the first time she saw the spren, but not the first time her shadow started acting up. The problem with that is she visited Shadesmar just before Gavilar's death, not after. But I'm wondering if the spren are attracted to their people before they're broken. Maybe they're there when the person breaks, ready to bond, and that's how Jasnah visited Shadesmar when she did. This doesn't seem to hold true for Kaladin but there is evidence that Shallan, Jasnah, and Dalinar either had experiences with their spren before breaking or exhibited symptoms of the bond before they were clearly bonded.

Shallan had access to Pattern at a very young age and I "think" the thing that broke her was accomplished with Pattern, but that may not hold true. I don't remember the sequence of events that well.

Jasnah visited Shadesmar before breaking, "if" I end up being right. That ones a big if.

Dalinar experienced quite a few symptoms of the bond before bonding the Stormfather, such as aversion to Blades and using Stormlight to heal during battle before bonding the Stormfather, and one post said losing the Thrill was a symptom of that as well. Dalinar is my strongest example for this theory.

This is only a sort of half theory right now. I wanted to post my thoughts while they're fresh so I don't forget. Any thoughts in support or against?

These are actually a few really good points I hadn't considered before. After all, we saw in one of Kaladin's flashbacks that Syl was hanging around before Kaladin was made a slave, even if she was still acting like a windspren at the time. I do still wonder if characters like Shallan and Jasnah would have had to have a stronger bond than spren just hanging around would provide, though. Then again, we don't know too much about their orders at the moment, so maybe I'm wrong.

You have no idea how happy this topic makes me!  I think wolf is perfect for Kaladin. I really can't see another animal working better. Jasnah... Hm. It would need to be something elegant, but dangerous. I almost wonder if she wouldn't be a large cat as well. Probably smaller than Navani, maybe an ocelot. Elhokar would probably be some sort of baby bird that hasn't figured out how to fly yet, and I can see Dalinar as either an eagle or a lion.

As for Szeth... rabid dog?

As much as I would love to see something like this, I'm honestly not sure it could work very well. Too much of the story happens inside the character's minds.

 

For example, Szeth can be a pretty sympathetic character in the book. But if you were just watching him from the outside he looks like nothing more than a psychopath. He hardly ever speaks. It would be difficult to portray his descent into madness without changing his character quite a bit. How do you portray the screaming in his head without it being awkward?

 

Eshonai is another good example. The entire Listener race, for that matter. The amount of exposition you'd need to explain all the things the characters just happen to know would get pretty awkward. How do you explain the meaningful difference between the Rhythms? Most of it is felt by the character. We know the significance of the entire population singing to Awe only because Eshonai knows what the song means. If we just witnessed the characters singing it how do we know what it means? Does someone name the song out loud?

 

All of the PoV characters would have this problem to some extent. Dalinar never ever speaks about his memory loss. Does the audience hear Shshshsh when Dalinar does? And what about the spren? Does someone name each and every one out loud? If you've read the books you'd probably recognize them but what about someone who's just watching the show? It could get really confusing really easily.

 

Exposition would need to be handled very carefully not to ruin the whole experience. I'm not sure it's really possible to do on-screen.

 

I hope to be proven wrong, though.

... Is it bad I would love to hear Shshshsh every time Dalinar did? I kinda think it would be funny...

Oooh, more information on Shshsh!! Is that why he carries her necklace? If she were more moral than the Blackthorne (assuming the Blackthorne only ever cared about killing in those days) would she have been a calming influence on him? Is that why he was such a heavy drinker before Gavilar's death? I NEED MORE ABOUT SHSHSH!!

I would agree that there is definitely a correlation between Jasnah's distance from her mother and when Jasnah broke/bonded Ivory.  However, think about it--her mother is an artifabrian, and all modern fabrials use trapped spren.  What would happen if a bonded, sentient spren were trapped to power a fabrial?  What sort of experiments would artifabrians wish to conduct?  (Even if Navani wouldn't have done these things, I can't imagine that she wouldn't start looking for other sentient/stronger spren as well, which would lead others, which would--bad things.)

 

Towards what broke Jasnah, physical abuse at the hands of a man that is hinted at is the boring answer.  It's the predictable answer.  I genuinely hope for it to be a red herring simply because I have higher expectations from Sanderson as an author.  And, if it had been Amaram, then Amaram would be dead.  I hope that we can all agree to that; she had secured the services of a Shardblade-wielding assassin, after all, and at the time Amaram had some political power and probably a well-crafted suit of armor and sword that would be zero defense at all.  Whatever problem that she had with him was something else entirely.

I'll definitely agree with your thoughts on Amaram. I think if Jasnah was abused, whoever committed the act is long dead. 

I believe the reason some people claim having Jasnah chose the life of a scholar as opposed to the life of a married woman for personal reasons not linked to past abuses makes her stronger is not in terms of character strength. Many of us think it appealing she would have genuinely chose to evolve outside the normality of her society and to turn this choice into the consequence of an unfortunate past as opposed to have her voluntarily chose it makes up for a lesser story arc. In other words, it is not Jasnah, as a person, who would be weaker had she been abused, but her choice. If the reasons behind it is past abuse, then her choice to become a single scholar does not bear the same strength. In fact, the second there is either an abuse or an shunned upon sexual orientation to justify her life of celibacy, then it stops being her choice.

 

Many of us want Jasnah to have chosen this life, not have it impose on her by circumstances outside her control. That is what people mean when they say it would make her a weaker character. 

I disagree. I think choosing a lifestyle that is both something you enjoy AND something that is safe from abuse is one of the bravest choices Jasnah could have made. And I think the coolest thing is that she hasn't completely shut herself off in order to do it. As mentioned, she's open to new ideas, and to going back to old ideas. If a devotary manages to convince her to return to Vorinism, she's willing to give it a try. That suggests to me that if someone can convince her marriage is worth the risk, she's willing to try again, which means she's HEALING. That, to me, makes an incredibly powerful story and character.

Why does the fact she chose not to marry need to be explained? Why does she need to have been molested to justify her decision? These thoughts are exactly what prompts me to think there is nothing more to her past than unhappy parents and having find out Vorinism was a lie.

 

 

 

I didn't think so. Galivar was being very condescending when he spoke to her and it has always bothered me. 

Oh, I'm not trying to explain her reasons for not getting married, just for her breaking. Process of elimination (and foreshadowing with Shallan) suggests that either Jasnah or someone she knew was hurt by a man. I can definitely see where you might think Gavilar was condescending, but I've always read it as teasing more than cruel. It's the same sort of thing my older brothers would say if they were trying to tease me, at least. So I read her relationship with her father as fairly healthy. It's hinted she has some sort of beef with Navani, and considering what she says about her in her letter with Dalinar, I can see it being enough to break her, but I don't think we have enough textual evidence for that yet. On the other hand, her reactions to the muggers she kills, as well as Shallan's thoughts about what happened, tell me that there's at least enough there that Brandon wanted to draw attention to it.

Good points. I had forgotten about her prologue chapter. Although if he had been abusive towards her wouldn't we likely have seen something in the way she interacted with him in that chapter? Not necessarily anything blatant, but something? To be fair I don't remember that chapter very well, so maybe there was something off about it and I just don't remember.

That's what I meant. Her interactions with Gavilar were perfectly normal for a healthy father/daughter relationship, which is why I don't think he contributed to her breaking. Sorry if that wasn't very clear, I have a tendency to overcomplicate everything I say. 

So, um, Regalia said that every Epic has to go through a rending (whether or not facing fears before gaining powers negates that is a topic for another day). We know Prof has to have gone through a rending, and we know that the school he taught at was destroyed by an Epic... is it possible Prof was the Epic who destroyed the school during his Rending?

That's one interpretation, the other is that by facing his fear before actually receiving the power he just didn't receive it. Which given that as of the opening of Calamity he still hasn't used any powers makes a bit more sense, plus again the whole getting gifted to thing.

It wouldn't surprise me if David really did end up with powers, and just doesn't realize it. That would explain why he doesn't use his powers when they could be helpful. It also *SPOILERS FOR THE EXCERPT* explains the prologue given in the Calamity excerpt.

Going with this theory and considering the research Jasnah is doing, maybe her father wasn't abusive, maybe just the discovery that her father was trying to end the world would be enough to break her. For all we know she worshipped her father as a child and found out about his "extra-curricular" activities, which could have broken her.

I agree that it might help break her, but I kind of doubt she found out in time. If it had been enough to break her, she would have most likely cut any emotional ties with her father, even if she acted the same as always in order to watch him. However, in her POV prologue she was friendly with him, and there's no reason to suspect she was faking that. And even if she found out later, she was already broken enough to travel to Shadesmar. 

That's actually a really good question, I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up yet (unless it has and I've just missed the thread.  ). I wonder if maybe it has something to do with Adolin? Trying not to upstage his brother? Also, it wouldn't surprise me if he suspected he was the one writing the countdown on the walls, and it scared him. If he's a Truthwatcher who can see the future, he might have seen something that disturbed or worried him enough to keep him quiet until he could figure it out.

My personal opinion is that there was a negative experience with men that contributed to Jasnah's breaking. It may not have actually happened to her personally - I would expect her interactions around men to be a bit more volatile if it had - but I can see her discovering something that happened to a friend or close acquaintance that would both close her mind to the idea of marriage and help break her enough for a bond.

*Spoilers galore* I think a lot of that has to do with what exactly it was Shallan did to hurt Pattern. Was it suppressing the memories, or was it the fact that she outright rejected him? And was he "killed" in the same way Syl was, or was he merely wounded or banished back to the Cognitive Realm?

I think it will depend on the book. Obviously Kaladin and Shallan know, and probably Renarin as well, considering how he reacted during the four-on-one duel, but as for the other Radiants, I'm not sure. I think as more people learn what happened to the spren, there will be more ethical debates about whether or not the Alethi should continue to use Shards. However, considering the way the Alethi lighteyes behave, I imagine getting them to give up their Shards, even knowing that they are essentially spren corpses, would be incredibly difficult.

I think any radiant can heal themselves with Stormlight, which is how Kaladin fixes his arm after Szeth's Honorblade cuts it, but only those with Progression can heal others.

I think if bacteria could have killed him it would have been the first thing the Reckoners tried. However, I do love the idea of big, invincible Steelheart desperately trying to ignore a mosquito bite. 

I always imagined him fairly lean, with thick, messy brown hair.

Personally, I'd both chop and dye my hair (probably to some crazy color my family would never expect), force myself to lose a TON of weight, and possibly buy colored contacts.

Shallan's bond was forming quite a bit before her Mother tried to kill her, enough to apparently have spoken the requisite words for Level 3 (as Pattern implied she was a lot further along the Radiant path than Kaladin at the end of WoR; having just spoken her 3rd truth, combined with the first oath > first truth > second truth, making her a level 4 Radiant). So going from this, it is hard to say what Shallan's early childhood was like, as she most likely repressed those memories due to associating them with her Mother, but most likely something terrible caused her to crack badly enough for a bond to start forming.

I definitely think there was more going on in Shallan's family before her mother tried to kill her. I just think there's no way she would have had a Shardblade otherwise, and honestly, something just felt off to me about her interaction with her father right after she kills her mother.

It's been mentioned several times that new Epics will usually go after the people that they know first, because they're most likely to guess an Epic's weakness. So, if someone you knew were to suddenly become an Epic, and you were trapped in the same city with them with no way to get out, how would you hide from them?

Honestly, for me reading Way of Kings actually taught me a lot about writing. I have a tendency to make my plotlines overly simple (ie, BORING!!!), and reading something that takes so many fantasy ideas that would normally make people laugh, and then makes them work so well, really helped me open up and actually start having fun with my writing again.