kari-no-sugata

Thanks for asking! Hmm. I think we have solid dates for the Heirocracy (began in earnest 500 years ago and ended 300 years ago). I don't think we have any idea about year 0 in the calendar refers to - it's year 1173 at the start of the story. 1173 years since what? Is this specific to the Alethi? To the Vorim kingdoms in general? To Roshar in general? I suspect that the Recreance was about 1500 years ago and year 0 in the calendar is the official founding of the modern Vorin kingdoms. I can't think of any other timeline questions that wouldn't be RAFO bait.

Hmm. Sounds like you're expecting Dalinar to immediately issue a judgement against Adolin without a trial. Am I reading that right? Dalinar planned to hold a trial for Amaram when he got back. Adolin can also demand a trial (even higher level darkeyes can). So unless Adolin completely capitulates I'd expect there to be a trial of some kind. Ialai may be able to demand a formal trial too even if Adolin capitulates - for example, she could allege that Dalinar ordered Adolin to assassinate Sadeas. So the scenario I've been envisioning is that one way or another Adolin is "imprisoned" until the situation is more sorted - ie unless he's willing to abandon everything and run away he has to stay in the same place, probably with some guards permanently assigned both to watch him and protect him against reprisals. So I expect him to technically keep ownership of his Shards until the trial is complete. I'm not actually expecting a heavy legal battle though - more like there'll be a lot of arguments going on behind the scenes until the trial is due to start... and the trial itself may never actually occur. Knowing him, Adolin may eventually demand trial by combat as well - for example, I could see him offering to duel a full Shardbearer with only his Shardblade (Adolin has just the Blade, opponent has both Blade and Plate).

Thanks. I was very happy with how my ideas came out. Now, whether they're in any way accurate is another matter - I'm almost happier to be wrong because it means I learn something new and am surprised. I know, I know. You expect this, I expect this, everyone expects this... but it does feel a little unfair to criticise him for being unfair before it's actually happened Anyway... this does lead me to my promised thoughts on how I think Adolin's situation could develop in SA3. How to break Adolin Kholin Hands up if you would willingly experience Kaladin or Shallan's life it would mean possibly gaining the magic powers they have? I don't think I would take it up if offered. Their lives are pretty damnation horrible. They were broken. However, I don't think this is what we should expect to be typical of Radiants - I suspect that their experiences are more extreme than most. There's various hints from Dalinar, Jasnah and Lift that they've been through very painful experiences. Renarin is (so far) the odd-one-out, which is rather typical of him since he's always been the "misfit". We'll probably have to wait until his book to really understand what he went through and why but there's some good hints scattered around. From a story narrative point of view then, it would be "unfair" if Adolin gets to be a Radiant without obviously going through significant suffering. (This is not to say that Adolin hasn't suffered until now). Also, from a technical point of view it seems he'll have to be "broken" enough to be able to form an enduring spren bond. In other words, for Adolin to be able to revive the spren in his Shardblade he'll have to be broken first. So, how? While I'm sure that physically torturing him would work I doubt we'll get that - instead it'll be mental torture. Like, remember when Kaladin is imprisoned in WoR and he's going increasingly dark because of that? That was quite chilling to read but what I suspect is coming Adolin's way will be far worse and for far longer. So... how? I think there's already a good hint in WoR when Jakamav turns out to not just be a fair-weather friend but someone who would turn against him. Imagine if Dalinar... and Renarin... and Navani... and Shallan all turn against him! (At least, from his point of view and I imagine that Kaladin will be away). Imagine if he's imprisoned. Cut off from everyone and everything. Alone. Abandoned. With nobody to talk to except his Shardblade. To stress again, I'm not saying that the others really would turn against him, just that things could develop in such a way that he could believe it. For example, maybe Renarin's Truthwatcher ability accidentally leads to him revealing Adolin to be the culprit. Maybe Dalinar himself decides to press charges against Adolin. With Shallan there's a huge range of possibilities.

Here's a very simple question: When was the Recreance? Could also ask: For the ordinary people of Roshar, did the Recreance have any significant short-term effects (cultural, economic, political)

Generally, I don't tend to pick "favourites"... but even in this case, I can't really separate them even if forced to. I felt that WoR had slightly better prose, but tWoK was better structured/balanced. WoR has a lot of fun and memorable scenes but also has two scenes that annoy me, even on re-reading - by which I mean the way it is presented rather than the actual events. In tWoK there was a scene that annoyed me on first read but on a re-read I realised that I had miss-read it. As a sequel, one thing I like about WoR is that it answers many questions from the previous book - it doesn't make the world notably more complex.

Older thread but couldn't help wanting to reply here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel I would describe them as typically being around 200 pages (and released in small paperback format only) specifically aimed at a YA audience.They often have a few pages of colour illustrations at the front with actual scenes from the novel and inside there will be some B&W illustrations of scenes too. The illustrations will include clear views of all the major characters - very often the anime version of a light novel will have pretty much the same character designs. From this point of view the illustrations are pretty much the opposite of what Brandon has done with the Stormlight Archive interior art.

If we consider the current Roshar to how it used to be in the Silver Kingdoms Epoch, it's much more divided now. There used to be 10 kingdoms who were further united by Urithiru but most of those kingdoms have splintered apart - there seems to be around 20 now. Even the most powerful kingdom (Alethkar) is only vaguely united and that is more recent. Apparently Jah Keved is not much different. If we consider Jasnah's historical summary (chapter 29 of tWoK) then things are getting worse, not better. Seems that though technology and science are progressing other aspects of humanity are regressing. I strongly suspect this is due to Odium's long-term plan via the Unnmade and maybe others. Bondsmiths: Dalinar's place in the world The following is highly speculative... It may be that the requirements for being able to become a Bondsmith are as follows: someone who can lead a huge army well but also truly care for each individual so as to keep losses to the minimum, someone who can lead without using fear or other negative methods, someone who truly would not make anyone do anything that they would not be willing to do themselves, someone who will wage war for a higher purpose and never for personal motives. Someone who can lead the world against Odium's forces and win. Essentially, Dalinar has to unite the world, put it on a war-footing and survive against an entity that fights by enhancing humanity's dark side. If this line of thinking is correct then Taravangian's current approach is flawed because he is using Odium style tactics - though if he stops seeing his touchy-feely side as a curse and abandons the Diagram's plan then maybe he could become a Bondsmith too. This near impossible balancing act of waging war effectively while strongly avoiding the dark arts of war is perhaps what makes Bondsmiths fundamentally rare. If we consider how Dalinar has run the Kholin army, he's basically on the right track: they are highly disciplined, have high morale, they are effective in battle, are not willing to waste lives and Dalinar leads from the front. I wonder if the modern Vorin religion grew out of a more secular system that aimed to give everyone a sense of purpose, of being part of a huge joint effort, that encouraged everyone to improve themselves...? I also wonder if Nohadon was not just a Bondsmith but the first Bondsmith - that Honor saw what he did and approved so much he ordered the Stormfather to bond Nohadon and created the order of Bondsmiths. Anyway.... if the above view of Bondsmiths is correct (and to repeat, this is just speculative) then it's no wonder they have the divine attributes of "pious" and "guiding" - they need exhort humanity to be better and to lead by example. Dalinar is probably going to become more and more pious as his responsibilities increase. I also expect him to welcome any suggestions or examples of how humanity could be better or used to be better - eg the old Alethi Codes of War, the in-world book The Way of Kings. He needs to be open to many opinions and viewpoints and then determine what's best. He also needs to be benevolent, to forgive mistakes and crimes, to be the first to reach out and to trust others, to put aside personal enmity, to be balanced and fair. What does this mean for MBTI? I don't think there's necessarily one particular type that's more suited for Bondsmiths than others. Actually, I feel that as they progress Bondsmiths might become MBTI-neutral as it were. At the least, they probably need to avoid extremes - I think they need to find the right balance and try to get the best of both worlds. I can't really justify this line of reasoning but somehow it feels right. This is far easier said than done. It's one thing to be trusting but if people expect you to be blindly trusting then they will take advantage of you. Yet if you're obviously keeping watch on allies or potential allies then that can destabilise trust. So for example, though I'm sure Shallan would be more than capable of infiltrating an ally or potential ally to sniff out possible misdeeds I suspect that Dalinar would never ask her to actually spy - though he probably wouldn't exactly ban her either. Things get sticker with crimes and punishment. When Shallan first meets Dalinar and raises the issue of the deserters she brought with her, Dalinar is readily willing to pardon them and says it always feels like a waste to hang soldiers. I think that's generally a fine approach for what's coming... except that it would probably be smart to check first what actual crimes they have supposedly committed and so on. In a Desolation, people will be under heavy strain and quickly resorting to capital punishment (ie fear) is not going to improve morale. Better to keep as many soldiers alive if you can going by how devastating Desolations can be. But going too far and being too benevolent will cause other problems. This is in particular where I think he went wrong with Sadeas and Amaram. The situation with Sadeas was very delicate because Dalinar could have triggered a civil war if he moved too strongly against Sadeas. Yet from a reader's point of view, Sadeas is pretty much a traitor to mankind, he was promoting Odium's goals and he was too far gone to save. Dalinar never actually tries to punish Sadeas himself and instead takes a slow round-about method. I think the problem Dalinar has here is he knows he did much the same as Sadeas in the past, that he is unsure of himself and never fully let go of his friendship with Sadeas - this makes him hesitant (opposite error compared to the deserters where he was too quick to decide). Though Dalinar had few options I still think he treated Sadeas with kid-gloves and failed in "strength before weakness". Could he himself have done more? Yes and not only that we are given an example in the book - Shallan's plan to use the King's Boon and trap Sadeas. Dalinar can hardly claim to have forgotten the incident since he raises it in chapter 8 of WoR. He could also have challenged Sadeas directly himself. A big gamble... and Sadeas probably wouldn't have agreed. It would have at least made it clear that Dalinar was not going to tolerate Sadeas's actions and that would have weakened Sadeas. The way he just lets Amaram go makes little sense, particularly since he's about to embark on a high risk mission. Surprise surprise, Amaram isn't simply going to sit around nicely waiting to be punished. At this moment in time, most of us are expecting Dalinar to react very poorly to Adolin killing Sadeas. It obviously hasn't happened yet, so I don't want to criticise him for something he may never actually do, but if he does react very strongly a reasonable person might ask why is he being so inconsistent - and being inconsistent is a bad trait for a leader. Such a situation would be very awkward for Dalinar but is also the sort of thing that could help him grow. I think what he'll need to do is realise that he gave Sadeas too much leeway and by doing that it was hard for others to trust Dalinar to deal with Sadeas properly - I doubt Adolin would have lost it against Sadeas if he knew Dalinar was going to deal with him properly and promptly. If things had continued as they had, as I strongly suspect Sadeas would have ordered an assassination on Navani - is that what it would have taken for Dalinar to fully oppose Sadeas? I don't know what legal options are available but at least from a moral point of view Dalinar will need to retro-actively accept that Sadeas was a traitor to mankind and needed to be punished immediately - without something like that I don't think he'll be able to forgive Adolin. Note, this is not to say that Adolin will escape punishment. Going back to Bondsmiths in general, what I described above may sound like an impossible task but they have an incredible resource to call upon - the rest of the Knights Radiant. Need to investigate someone's crimes - get a Skybreaker. Need help with research, resources or communications - get a Elsecaller. Need help with morale, diplomacy or counselling - get a Lightweaver. Need help with attack or defence - get one of the more combat orientated orders. And so on. In short to combine the best aspects of all the Radiants together.

I adore the Warbreaker cover. Not just best Cosmere book cover, but best damnation book cover I've ever seen.

Hi maxal, thanks again for the interesting commentary. I just finished a nice long bath and managed to re-read a chunk of Dalinar chapters (oh for a water-proof e-reader) and caught your post just before going to bed. One quick correction: I said Adolin thinks he's happy with Alethi society but he actually isn't (and that's precisely why he's having problems) A quick thought on Dalinar: Personally, I think he's being too benevolent much of the time and I suspect he's over-compensating for his tyrant days. Blackthorn Dalinar is not the solution but neither is kid-gloves Dalinar (I'm thinking in particular of Sadeas and Amaram) And one final thing I've been wanting to throw out for a while: this is a series where lots of characters have various major "issues" and some are managing better than others. I suspect that Elhokar falls into this category - except he became king well before he was ready. I think he's trying to be something he's not while not having the "luxury" of fading into the background to figure himself out in a low-stakes environment. He feels overdue some proper character development (though whether that'll be a big time fail or turning his life around is another matter). Feel free to ignore if you don't want to discuss him

Hi little wilson, thanks for joining in. Relative to Adolin, Dalinar definitely feels more I to me. However... I took the MBTI test pretending to be Adolin about 2 weeks ago and got like 95% E or thereabouts so almost everyone would be more I than him (I'd be curious to see what others get) It would be nice to see more discussion on Dalinar - in a way he's "officially" the most important person on Roshar right now. I think he's a very interesting character and his decisions will make a big impact so it's a shame that we didn't see too much from him in book 2. And like all the other characters he has his skills, flaws and particular characteristics. It will be interesting to see how those develop - it's quite fascinating to see a 50-something warlord realise that his entire approach for much of his life has been plain wrong! I'm also really curious to find out just what Bondsmiths can do. I'll see what I can do to gather my thoughts. Regarding the discussion on Adolin: I don't see that scene as being indicative of him being a masquerading I, more like a fish that finally found water as it were. To continue my line of thinking from my previous post: There's been lots of discussion about Adolin's problems with girlfriends and it seems to be generally assumed that it shows a flaw or fault in Adolin. Yet... we know Alethi society as a whole has deep flaws. We don't consider Jasnah to be flawed for struggling to find Lighteyed girls who are worth taking on as wards (picky maybe, but not flawed). Obviously they're looking for different things in Lighteyed girls... but it may be a surprising valid comparison. The crucial difference of course is that Jasnah knows for sure what she is looking for and knows how to evaluate prospective wards. Adolin doesn't know, consciously at least, so he's confused. Here's what could be going on: Unlike almost all his peers, Adolin has been raised in a decent household and has proper working relationships with his family. He thinks he's happy with Alethi society (and is trying to encourage Dalinar to be more Alethi-like for much of tWoK) but he's actually not happy with the Alethi way and by WoR he's come to realise this. He still hasn't realised what went "wrong" with all his girlfriends but maybe his subconscious has been warning him the whole time. ie his "flaw" is to want a relationship with a proper human being. It would be interesting if Dalinar went through something similar: his wife wasn't Alethi either (Kaladin wonders if she was from Rira, which is NW from the Purelake). I suspect we might dig deeper into the darker side of Alethi society sooner or later. If Dalinar is really going to be able to unite people I think he'll need to fix some of the bigger flaws, such as slavery.

I don't actually visit this particular forum too often and I'm probably not the only one. If it wasn't down to luck that I decided to check it out the previous time I would probably missed you theory, which is a shame since it's a good one. I think you'd get more responses to your theory on the SA forum.

My work desk is quite clean but I think that's more because I rarely need anything else. My flat is a horrible mess most of the time... For the Oathgate, I was in particular thinking about the following aspects: guessing that Stormseat is in the middle of the Shattered Plains - even Pattern thought she was wrong... but as she said, "use a little imagination" Another thing was deciding to draw out the entire Shattered Plains on a huge canvas - she was sure she needed to do it but had no idea how it would be useful in advance. There's some other things though it's hard to determine how much was good observation and logical reasoning and how much is intuition. Thank you. Glad I could help. Hmm. That's certainly a very clear and strong example... Well, for Shallan the scene that sprung to mind was this: Deliberately risking your life to be able to see a chasmfiend - good enough...? Personally, while I would like her to be more confident in herself and I mostly enjoy it when she takes bold action, I hope she doesn't lose her tendency for self-depreciation or otherwise not taking herself too seriously. She'd become an entirely different character to me and I'd probably find her to be less interesting. I'm hoping for something more like Mat from The Wheel of Time or Moist from Discworld (ie becomes more mature and complex but never quite grow up either) Pendulum huh? Hmm. I have three mental images for Shallan and I'm not quite sure which to go with. One is a jack-in-the-box (she's spent most of her life being pressed down and now is bouncing back, surprising everyone). The second is a runaway train. The third is an explosion in slow-motion. I tend to go with the first one. Shallan often seems to be thinking of several things at the same time and Adolin definitely brings out the teenage girl in her too... but when Shallan considers the possibility of using illusions to enhance herself she does think ahead to (possible) married life - do you consider that to be typical of teenagers from Roshar? For Shallan's reaction to the causal, when she did ponder what she knew of Adolin she recalled daydreams of meeting a prince not marrying one. Her joy at the causal was much more because it was a simple but effective solution to her problems. Her personal feelings towards Adolin in advance were more muted: I think Shallan was mentally prepared for Adolin to be rather different and was being entirely honest when she describes Adolin as "a wonderful surprise". I previously said "the interesting thing about their arranged marriage is that there's no pressure on them from others, only from themselves" and what you say above is the sort of things I was thinking about for "from themselves". Looks like we agree Hmm, I don't remember any indication that they talked of such things or that they were close. Shallan had only been off the Davar estate 3 times before she set off to find Jasnah (probably all occasions like Middlefest) so she and Eylita wouldn't have been able to meet up much at all - I don't think Eylita was able to come to the Davar estate much until Lin Davar died (Lin didn't approve of Eylita at all and Eylita's parents didn't like Lin at all). I don't know how much they wrote to each other but I don't remember any indication that they talked about anything other than Balat. I'm not quite settled on my understand of Shallan myself and I've re-read her scenes more than any other character. I'm not sure where Brandon is going to go with Shallan and Kaladin long-term but my current impression of Kaladin is that right now, he'd likely make a poor boyfriend - he's rather too married to his job and to a soldier's way of thinking. Even his men complain he's a workaholic. It also looks likely that he's going to be away for much of book 3. (Side note: I hope I'm not coming across as overly negative on Kaladin here. He's done incredible things and he certainly deserves happiness. However, he also has scars. Unless he's incredibly lucky I think he'll have real trouble with long term romance any time soon - not that I'm good at it myself and I have fewer excuses. I'm not saying he has no chance with Shallan either or doesn't deserve a chance) As I see it, Kaladin needed to get to know Shallan better to get over his prejudice of Lighteyes. At the start of WoR he's extremely distrustful of all Lighteyes and makes only a moderate exception for Dalinar. Though he generally becomes more negative as the book progressed he added Renarin and then Adolin to his list of exceptions. Until the chasm scenes he'd only viewed Shallan as a "typical Lighteyes". I used to wonder why Brandon wrote the whole "boots" scene, since it seemed unnecessary but after thinking about it for a while I think it was mostly so that Kaladin would give himself an easy excuse to only view Shallan as a typical Lighteyes - which means that when they have their chasm scenes it has a bigger impact on him as he starts to re-evaluate her. One major effect of the chasm scenes for Kaladin was to be forced to realise that his default way of viewing Lighteyes was wrong and that he was mistaken in his assumptions. On a side note, I'm not sure if it's rare or typical of Lightweavers but Shallan ends up being a sort-of mental healer for a lot of people, Kaladin included. Too many to be a co-incidence. Particularly when how suitable INFJs are considered to be for such tasks. Thinking a bit more on Adolin's previous girlfriends and the Alethi in general: it's clear that the Alethi Highprinces are far from shining examples of humanity. This is not a new thing either. There doesn't seem to be anything indicating that the younger generation are any better. In addition to the examples already raised, early in tWoK Jasnah notes that Shallan didn't throw a tantrum - sounds like she's come to expect such reactions from prospective wards! I remember Dalinar being a bit surprised that Jasnah took on a new ward since Jasnah often claimed to not have the time. Seems like it's more like that they were not worth her time - if she really didn't have time or inclination she would reject them much earlier. Jasnah and Adolin are evaluating quite different attributes among the same group of people but they're both looking for quality and both are finding the options to be lacking. Interesting thought... That's not where I was going with that scenario at all, honest! I agree Brandon wouldn't go there either. However, I'll give you an interesting scenario to picture that could actually happen: exact setting doesn't matter but lets say that Shallan gets a chance to make "any" request of Adolin... and what she asks for is... for Adolin to pose nude for her - all in the name of art, honest! I'm thinking something a bit like the sketch scene in the film Titanic, but with the genders reversed. I think Adolin could agree to such a request though would be quite embarrassed initially, while Shallan would get increasingly flustered. I'm also envisioning Shallan being unable to forget for a week afterwards and having a tendency to blush at odd moments, leading everyone else to jump to the wrong conclusion... Hmm. I have several thoughts on all this but I'll leave them to a later post. I need to ponder it a bit more - I had not originally been rating the probability of Adolin reviving his Shardblade that high but now I'm kinda expecting it so thinking through how this could play out. One thing though: you seem to view it as likely that Shallan and Adolin will be having some difficulties in their relationship from the start of the next book, even before stuff with Sadeas comes out. However, your reasons seem to assume that Adolin has already found out various things you've listed that could cause problems - he may well find them out but not necessarily immediately. Instead I'd expect that things go from being nice and sunny to stormy once the Sadeas stuff comes out.

Hmm, some really good theorising here... but one question: why here and not the general SA forum...?

Agreed Aleksiel. Dalinar interprets "them" as being the Alethi Highprinces but I suspect it means "the people of Roshar"

Wall of text is back! Apparently it's not uncommon for INFJs to have a "messy desk" - I think it's because they care more about the quality of the output more than the process. In RL, I think many people undervalue "intuition"... or maybe I should say that they don't realise how much they're already using it unconsciously and that they could use it a lot more. What you describe above sounds just fine to me With regards to Shallan using intuition, here's some examples I can think of: figuring out that Jasnah's Soulcaster was a fake and confronting her about it (though it's debatable just how much was intuition and how much was reasoning, but she believed in her answer much more strongly than would be explained by pure logic). In WoR: there's when she guesses that Dalinar would respond well to blunt honesty within a few minutes of meeting him, there's when she guesses that infusing Stormlight into Pattern would help with the problem of keeping her illusions up remotely, that the Ghostbloods were watching the tree from the same building she was in, when she felt a strong threat from Mraize and hid in an illusionary boulder for hours, there's how she figured out the location Stormseat, the location of the Oathgate and how to use it. Also, on the day she killed her father she went to get the poison before she even knew what her father had done - she had a really bad premonition. With regards to your general thoughts on F-type (not just from this post), according to MBTI theory whether someone is P or J has a big impact on F (or T) since it affects their dominant cognitive function - if Shallan is INFJ then her dominant function would be "introverted intuition" while if she was INFP then her dominant function would be "introverted feeling". This may explain why you find that Shallan's way of feeling is different to your own or that she feels a bit INTJ-like since INTJ and INFJ are more similar than INFP and INFJ, because INFJ and INTJ both use "introverted intuition" as their dominant function. Regarding Shallan acting irrationally, here's some examples I can think of: early in tWoK when dealing with the book seller, later in tWoK when she saw the Cryptics in her drawings she really panics the second time. The second time Shallan meets with Jasnah, she has to sit down and calm herself after Jasnah speaks harshly to her. In WoR when confronting the assassins who killed Jasnah (particularly over refusing to use her Shardblade), when confronting Kaladin when she meets him for the second time at the Pinnacle, somewhat during the first time she goes outside as Veil and somewhat during her time down in the chasms (eg when she had to create a cubby). It could also be argued that her overwhelming desire to keep her freedom lead to a rather irrational choice - hoping that Sebarial would take her in without ever having met him. For criticising books, big example would be in tWoK when Shallan is complaining about the "assuredness movement" and jokes how she'd like to like to stab it in the back. There's also a section where she notes that scholars would often be good at prose but not art or vice-versa or if they were good at both their logic/science would be terrible. In WoR there's a part where she complains about historians being a bunch of liars and basically not producing work that was actually useful. With regards to her deferring to experts, I think this is tricky to analyse because this is one area where her rapid growth is changing her. I think she expected "real" scholars to be far more capable than her (since she's basically self-taught) and is slowly coming to realise that this is not the case. She's becoming more confident in herself and late in WoR she encounters Inadara who is supposed to be a great scholar but Shallan doesn't seem impressed. I think we'll still see her deferring to experts but that her bar for "expert" has gone up a lot. I would liked to have seen a similar chapter from Adolin's POV too but I suspect the main reason we did not get this is that there would not be enough tension in the scene if there's not enough at stake for Adolin - which there isn't for much of WoR but this could change a lot in the next book. After the date we see a bit from Adolin but the main tension is all due to Sadeas. He also spends a few hours personally looking for a present for Shallan - sweet. I sort of agree and disagree. For a normal modern teenage girl from Earth, what would be at stake on a first date? Personal pride, opportunity for new experiences and maybe some other things depending upon their situation? What about a teenage girl from an upper class background in a more medieval period and in a semi-arranged marriage? Well, the same but in addition the reputation and future of the family could be at stake. In Shallan's case it's "all of the above" and in addition it could impact her goal to help prevent the return of the Voidbringers... but on the other hand she only has to answer to herself and all the additional pressures are her own since nobody is forcing them upon her. So in a sense it's the same - the interesting thing about their arranged marriage is that there's no pressure on them from others, only from themselves. Though on another level it's quite different - growing up, Shallan never expected to have a choice in who she would marry. Clearly she had allowed herself to dream a bit but she also had nobody to discuss such things with, really. She doesn't even have friends. I don't think even us readers know her favourite colour or food Well, she's fond of jam but she doesn't describe it as her favourite. Not that Adolin asked her much either - I also don't remember him asking previous girlfriends. No rush though. At least Shallan gave some indications of the sorts of things that interest her... though I suspect Adolin would struggle to find a chasmfiend plushie as a present Thank you for revising your assessment - yay for improving understanding through dialogue Regarding your questions, without more thoughts from Shallan it's hard to say. My general thinking of why their relationship works is that they're both giving each other something they "need". They can both relax around each other and be themselves (for the most part). Considering Shallan's background, she's known very few nice people and has had a lot of stress in her life so until Adolin she's had precious few options for relaxing and all those options were solitary. She has enough challenges in her life - she doesn't need more. I'm sure a theoretical relationship with Kaladin would be much more of a "challenge" but it would leave Shallan quite stressed out. For Adolin, I feel he can also relax with her - his other girlfriends all seemed quite "high maintenance" in comparison. I suspect he feels that Shallan is not so much of a challenge but a stream of interesting experiences. He already seems to be growing as a result. But, their relationship is still in its early stages... and as they get closer there would be new challenges. I think Shallan does have a number of quiet fears around their relationship. Simplest one is that events could conspire to nullify the betrothal. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Shallan feels tainted by her past and fears revealing it to someone like Adolin - she seems to consider herself broken and only partially sane. She is definitely holding back still and if their relationship did crumble due to a lack of trust and communication I think it's much more likely that Shallan would be largely to blame. So why could she trust Kaladin with some of her past? Likely because she felt he would understand, based on his own experiences - Shallan would probably not have spoken of her past if Kaladin hadn't spoken first. This is also why I think that Adolin murdering Sadeas will not necessarily cause long term difficulties and if anything could actually lead them to becoming much closer and genuinely opening up to each other - because Shallan could then have real hope that Adolin would accept and understand her terrible past. I think Shallan is currently too passive with relationships. I'm sure she'll improve with experience. Also, I see her as someone who will naturally improve the more time she spends with someone. One interesting observation: when Adolin is duelling the 4 Shardbearers, Shallan decides to send out Pattern to help. But, she doesn't tell Pattern to help Adolin but Renarin. Why? Because she's noticed that Adolin is trying to do something even though she's not entirely sure what or why but guesses it involves Renarin. So instead of simply protecting Adolin she tries to protect the things he cares about. There does appear to be multiple lines of evidence that the Alethi are more prudish/reserved than Vedens, at least in public. I have no idea if Shallan accurately knows what is considered "normal" in Alethi society and I have no idea how her actions compares to courting in Vedenar - we don't see much of Balat and Eylita's courtship. I do think it's clear enough that Shallan has a personal desire to be intimate with Adolin but whether her goals are fuelling that or simply removing any limiters is harder to say - either way the combination is stronger. I agree with your assessment of Adolin's previous relationships. Hmm. The way I read it, Adolin picked up that Shallan was nervous/uncomfortable but misinterpreted the cause due to lack of information. Adolin's upcoming ordeal... indeed. Maybe I'm too optimistic (in terms of how it will affect them) but this is how I'm currently envisioning events: I see no reason why Shallan wouldn't want to know why it happened - I can easily see her being initially shocked and withdrawing... and then getting up in the middle of the night to go find Adolin and get some answers simply because she can't calm down otherwise. It seems unlikely that she would be prevented by others from asking. So, would Adolin be willing to explain in detail? We've already seen that he can be quite open and liable to talk but this could be very hard for him. However, I don't see Shallan taking no for an answer and she seems capable of picking up lies. Either way I expect her to get to the truth... and I expect her to sympathise with Adolin and also see him as being more real due to his flaws. It certainly won't be news to her that Adolin hates Sadeas... just the degree and what Adolin was prepared to do. I have no idea if we'll get it but what I'm hoping for is that Shallan goes from shocked to understanding relatively quickly. (There's certainly other options depending on how events unfold of course). Instead of there being serious long term conflict between Adolin and Shallan... I expect it to be more Dalinar vs Shallan over Adolin's actions (I think that would be much more interesting at least). Not that I'm expecting everything between Shallan and Adolin to be all blossoms and cake either - I expect he'll at least be under house arrest until things are sorted. Plenty of time for him to get to know his Edgedancer Shardblade better

Hmm, very interesting. Thanks for posting celder. We know that reviving a dead blade is hard - I wonder how important it is that the person attempting it and the spren involved are "compatible".

(runs in...) Ouch. See this post (and other replies) about auto-saved posts and restoring them: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22712-phoenix-signing-121/#entry219451 Glad you're enjoying it. I've been doing some background reading on MBTI and I'm increasingly convinced that Shallan has to be INFJ. Two notes from my background reading on MBTI: it's more about underlying natural preference rather than skill or strength. So a "left handed person" who only trains to be right-handed would be considered right-handed in a job/skills test but left-handed in a MBTI-style test. Other is that relative importance of the 4 MBTI traits for decision making is different for different types, as this chart makes clear: https://zombiesruineverything.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/basics3.png For bit of fun I took the personality test from that site pretending to be Shallan and this is what I got: Wonder how the spren would rate... (...runs out)

This topic has come up a few times before - here's a quick summary of my thoughts: I think it's more likely than not that those were Cryptics. Elhokar makes no reference to them in WoR except to say that they're not showing up any more - Elhokar thinks that it's due to Kaladin but it's also possible that it's due to Shallan re-bonding Pattern (timing is close enough). I don't think Cryptics or Odiumspren would be scared off by an honorspren. I suspect that many (but not all) spren types would prefer to bond someone near a Bondsmith or many other Radiants - hence the cluster around Dalinar. It may be the the Cryptics investigated Elhokar to see if he could be a Lightweaver. Maybe they gave up on him (not suitable enough). Maybe he was a backup plan in case Shallan and Pattern didn't work out. It could also be that they were investigating someone around Elhokar and not Elhokar himself. Looking ahead to the next book: It'll be interesting to see Elhokar's reaction to Pattern - this could happen quite early on. We should see Shallan investigating Shadesmar (and Soulcasting) more and may be able to talk to other Cryptics - she could simply ask if they were doing anything with Elhokar and if so why. Elhokar has not been developed much to date and Shallan might just be the right person to help him develop a bit too.

Regarding the unique abilities in general: they've sometimes been referred to as 'passives' - this seems reasonable since they seem to be "always on" (though the strength might vary with depth of spren bond). Shallan's memory is good in general - being able to take a snapshot seems to be more like something she developed with many years of self-training rather than something intrinsic. Having numerous and particularly strong Squires seems like something that would also be "always on". This is speculation but it seems reasonable: these spren-specific abilities are a direct result of bonding spren and depend directly on the nature of the spren. It doesn't necessarily mean that there's a direct correlation between the "type" of the spren. It also seems reasonable to say that these abilities are not Surges or the like and don't consume any Stormlight. There may be some exceptions though.

Background note: I don't remember Brandon talking in depth his original plans for WoR but I'm pretty sure that his original plan was for Jasnah and Shallan to get to the Shattered Plains without much incident. The problem he had with that is Shallan wouldn't grow much in such a setting and so he changed his plan. I don't think he's ever said why Shallan wouldn't grow but it seems obvious enough to me - Shallan would defer too much to Jasnah and wouldn't leave her comfort zone enough. She'd grow, just not quickly enough - she'd be more like Jasnah's side-kick. You could say that Shallan respects Jasnah too much (at the beginning of WoR) and it's not until she sees Jasnah's vulnerable side that she starts seeing Jasnah as human again, which she needs to otherwise she wouldn't be able to believe she could continue Jasnah's work. In a sense, Shallan inherits Jasnah's will and determination. Net result is Shallan pushes herself way outside her comfort zone for pretty much the entire book. Thanks, I'm enjoying this conversation too I enjoy reading all the characters, even if they all annoy me at times. I do find Shallan the most fun to think about but actually, the two chapters I find the most annoying are both Shallan-centric ones. It's enjoyable to watch characters overcome their flaws so I don't mind them having annoying aspects so long as it doesn't become a trope. Does this mean you think she's much more like Jasnah then? I don't see that. However, what I do see is that when Shallan is feeling under a lot of pressure or particularly out of her depth she starts over-thinking things - you could say she becomes more INTJ-like under stress (extreme case being the "coldness of clarity" mode). I think she also picked up some "bad habits" from her mentors (Jasnah/Tyn) and I suspect she'll "apprentice" to Navani in book 3, which probably won't help her with her strengths but will help her with some of her weaknesses. Hopefully Pattern will help her with her strengths. Down in the chasms, Shallan tells Kaladin at one point "I hate logic. Always have.” This isn't an isolated comment but it is the strongest such one. Navani's first comment on reading Shallan's notes is "you think like an artist". When surprised, Shallan tends to react with emotion - for example, when re-meeting Wit her reaction is to hug and thank him. Shallan is definitely smart and can think logically... but I don't think she finds it that natural. I would say that she is good at connecting with people at an emotional level but not logically - which is why she gets easily irate at textbook authors. Jasnah seems to be the opposite - perfectly at home in considering and analysing other academic viewpoints and methods: she'd get annoyed with poor logic more than she would at the author. I would like to respond to all your points but I'm a bit short on time this week and instead I'd like to dig a bit deeper into one particular chapter where I suspect we have quite different viewpoints: Shallan and Adolin's "first date", chapter 49 (Watching the World Transform). I find this chapter very amusing to read... even on the 10th+ re-read. Right before the date gets going we see Shallan wondering if she even has any "feminine wiles": Shallan is quite serious about this though from my perspective it's quite an ironic line and intentionally so (she doesn't realise how naturally good she is). She also considers using Lightweaving to make herself more attractive but rejects it - she rejects the idea from more from a logical perspective (it would cause long-term practical difficulties) but there is also a hint that she'd rather Adolin accept her for what she is, though I don't think she's yet started connecting much with Adolin emotionally yet. Some more background: Shallan has been trying to discuss Jasnah's work with Navani but not succeeded (so far). This is Shallan's preferred choice but since it's going nowhere it makes it much more important that her relationship with Adolin works out. She's definitely thinking strategically. She's also both and very determined and very nervous - she's way out of her depth here and knows from both Jasnah and Tyn that Adolin has way more experience than her with romantic relationships. She doesn't yet have much of an emotional bond with Adolin but unlike Shallan's early relationship with Jasnah, Shallan would much prefer to have a long-term relationship from the outset and she doesn't need much from Adolin himself apart from the same (the things she needs from him are more indirect). On to the chapter itself. I suspect that in the line below, the word "control" in particular is setting off alarm-bells with you: But I find this bit combined with the next to be comedic - her intents above have been slightly exaggerated for comedic effect since the next bit is: And I'm laughing and also thinking "Poor Shallan, trying so hard, thinking so hard... and all Adolin has to do is smile at her and she melts into a puddle" Shallan is close to panic here. She's desperately trying to be what she thinks she should be, but struggling. Note that in her next line she calls him "Brightlord" rather than rather than "Adolin". Note her instinctive emotional response... and then trying to clamp down on that. Though Shallan's "I’m always at the edge of panic these days" feels a bit exaggerated for comedic effect, I feel that this works because it's more like the truth getting out accidentally (I find this exchange to be hilarious). Shallan is still trying hard to be something she's not. Adolin's making mistakes too. Fortunately for him, Shallan finds being clingy to be "nauseating" (due to her father's approach). Still trying to act based on her research and trying to do what she thinks is expected of her. Note that she wasn't expecting that to work in advance. It was unplanned... but it worked. Natural Shallan beat unnatural Shallan. This is arguably the main turning point of the chapter, though it's not like Shallan immediately abandons everything she thought about in advance. I think the next bit about chasmfiends was unplanned or mostly unplanned. Note that she wants to earn his trust. She wants to be helpful. There's logical long-term thinking attached too but she's certainly not thinking of this being a one-sided con. Previous not-quite-relationship didn't help. I still don't really get why Shallan feels a "chill". The only thing that makes sense to me is that her problem with authority figures (ie Dalinar) is quite strong and she's not warmed up to Dalinar at all yet. Shame, since if she'd asked Adolin more about this she might have realised that they were both working on similar things. Note that she's attempting to rein in her natural instincts - her logical side is holding her back. This is also the last reference to Kabsal in the entire book. After this, she stops worrying about what happened with Kabsal. After this, Shallan does clearly explain what she fears about the Parshmen but she decides not to press it due to Adolin's reaction. Adolin seems to forget about this topic though, or at least I don't remember him thinking about it. She doesn't tell Adolin about Urithiru though she sent Navani some of Jasnah's notes about it at some point. Shallan has to be rather patient about getting to kiss his lips She's a lot more relaxed here and enjoying herself. As best as I can tell, Shallan stops using Jasnah or Tyn as a reference for interacting with Adolin after this (and doesn't worry about what happened with Kabsal anymore). Shallan's approach going into the date is very different afterwards - her planning was mostly wasted and if anything a hindrance. She seems to largely just relax and be herself with Adolin after this. But... and I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm just guessing... but I suspect you don't like the "manipulate the prince more" bit. Which is fair enough because "more" implies there was at least some deliberate manipulation. However, my reading of the text is that any manipulation was very mild and not damaging. She could have trusted Adolin more for sure and could have told him more - the bigger problem is with what she doesn't do or say. We don't actually see that much Shallan/Adolin interaction from Shallan's PoV for the rest of the book. However, I think there are a few things worth mentioning. Firstly in chapter 53 from Adolin's PoV: Adolin takes her hesitation to be shyness... but as we find out a bit later, Shallan was actually lying here - she was actually late because she was checking Amaram's compound. Personally, I think this is a very minor lie - I don't blame her for keeping her activities with the Ghostbloods hidden and something like this is very unlikely to cause problems later. Still... Shallan regrets having to lie - which is why she feels awkward. And in chapter 77: Note that she doesn't need a logical explanation as to why she would get saddle-sore - she trusts Adolin and his opinion enough (and can read it from his expression) that she doesn't need one. And when Shallan's Radiant side is found out by Adolin: She immediately feels guilty and apologises. and near the end: Before kissing him. It feels to me that this was what Shallan was most afraid of if she had told Adolin about being a Radiant - that it would change their relationship. She seemed content with how things were. Anyway... that's it for now - might be a several days before I post again.

This sounds highly plausible.... I wonder if people in Shinovar are typically less healthy then?

Few random thoughts: I guess Stormlight has an effect similar to the basic health benefits of Breath. I wonder if it has more? Another: I guess Brandon wanted to be able to create a reasonably realistic fantasy world without the crippling diseases and mortality rates that would be typical for the medical knowledge. Perhaps the most chilling thing I ever did was reading a some death records from the late 1800s - most of the deaths were of children aged 0 or 1 (I was researching some family history at the time). That wasn't during some plague or the like either. And finally: perhaps there's been some subtle hints about this in the books. I forget the exact quotes but I seem to remember some references in tWoK about carrying spheres "for luck".

From the WoR tour: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7058-words-of-radiance-tour-chicago-signing-mar-22/page-2#entry116818

I don't think Shallan would like a job in sales, or at least "product" sales where you're selling something pre-packaged. I would expect her to instinctively want to be open with others - I would expect she would rebel against compelled (explicitly or implicitly) by a corporation to use manipulation or dubious tactics for the sake of profit or commission. I think she'd prefer to be self-employed or working in a small company... or selling full "services" (in-depth and long-term work with customers and creating custom solutions to their specific needs). While she can be quite "slippery" at times, I don't remember Shallan taking pleasure or enjoyment from lies while there's plenty of examples where she's unhappy with her lies. She rarely disguises her emotions (mostly acting more confident than she actually is) which is why she blushes all the time (I think) while a true con artist would be very different - Shallan never even hides her name, except from the Ghostbloods. Maybe in the future we'll see her being able to create separate personas but she's failed when tried so far (Veil was basically Shallan with different visuals) though she can imitate others (eg Jasnah). In tWoK one of Kaladin's inner conflicts is between the "soldier" and the "surgeon" while one of Shallan's inner conflicts is between her desire for "the Truth" while being adept at deceiving herself and others when necessary. I don't know if this will be a persistent problem for her or if it will come to a head in the next book - she will likely need to resolve this if she is to become a full Lightweaver/Radiant. If she's unlucky or foolish then it could easily end badly for her (I hope she doesn't repeat Kaladin's mistakes from WoR). I don't remember her ever conning or deceiving Palona (Sebarial's darkeyed mistress) and she straight up admitted to "bullying" Sebarial and that she didn't want to be "restricted" by being in the Kholin house. Apart from saying she burnt down the ship rather than Soulcasting it I don't think Shallan lied to or deceived Navani. I don't think she lied to or deceived Jasnah in WoR. I don't think she lied to or deceived her brothers or step-mother. I don't think she treats her goals like a game. Also, consider this: she came out and told Dalinar she was a proto-Radiant entirely voluntarily and on just the third meeting between them that we see in the book - before Dalinar's head bodyguard (Kaladin), his own son (Renarin) and his own niece (Jasnah). She trusted Kabsal (against Jasnah's advice) and regretted it, trusted Tyn and regretted it, trusted Mraize and regretted it... and was still willing to try trusting Dalinar despite not particularly liking authority figures. In the chapter from Kaladin's POV where Adolin and Shallan go to the menagerie, do you think Kaladin's view of Shallan (and Lighteyes in general) is fair and reasonable? I'd say it's obviously unfair (it's to hint at Kaladin's problems) and that Kaladin himself at the end of WoR would disagree his view at that time. During most of WoR her primary focus is on advancing Jasnah's ideas on the Parshendi/Parshmen/Voidbringers (ie hoping to avert a world-wide disaster). It's why she goes to the Shattered Plains - she believes there's clues there to get to Urithiru. She hopes that Urithiru will contain the necessary evidence to persuade the Highprinces that the Parshmen are dangerous Voidbringers - though she doesn't know that it's almost impossible to stop before she even gets there. It's why she wants to discuss Jasnah's work with Navani and tries again and again. It's why she wants to be able to tap the Kholins' resources - to help her explore the Shattered Plains and also help persuade everyone to give up the Parshmen. It's why she infiltrates the Ghostbloods - she knowns they're investigating similar things and hopes they have information that could help her. She does hope she might be able to help her family situation in some way with the Ghostbloods too but it was only a hope that never got anywhere (with sting in the tail that now Mraize holds her brothers). A lot of things she works on are directly related to the above. Most obviously, investigating Jasnah's notes to learn more about Urithiru. Some of her earlier work on Lightweaving is more open-ended (ie what is it and what can I do with it) while later on it's more goal-orientated (how can I achieve this, how can I avoid this potential problem) and most of those goals involve the Ghostbloods. Her brief "apprenticeship" to Tyn is a mixed bag: initially it pretty much just fell into her lap - Tyn figures Shallan to be someone like herself and reveals herself to Shallan and wants in on her secrets. This puts Shallan in a difficult position - if she rejects Tyn's assumptions and refuses to cooperate then that effectively makes them enemies to some degree, a complication Shallan could do without. Tyn also clearly has more information (and access to further information) that Shallan does not - initially her desire for information through Tyn is more about the state of her country (and how it could affect her brothers) but it also becomes her gateway to the Ghostbloods. Shallan was certainly happy to learn what skills she could from Tyn once she started and it was interesting how she made use of certain things later on (mostly against the Ghostbloods), but I don't think that was much of a factor early on. Her relationship with Adolin is another mixed bag: prior to arriving at the war camps the whole betrothal thing was not a big deal for her since she wasn't optimistic that it would even continue without Jasnah to support her and her primary goal was finding Urithiru and preparing for the Voidbringers. Though the betrothal could help with both that and her brothers she also knew she had to be prepared to go it alone too (if both help from Navani and the betrothal fall through). When she actually gets there her hopes for help from Navani go down in flames but the betrothal continues and Shallan gets a brand new (and personal) reason to want to make the best of it - she finds Adolin brain-meltingly attractive and (later on) just really pleasant to be with. Essentially, with Adolin, all her desires (for herself, for her brothers, for saving the world) all line up together. It's hard to say what motivated her to come up with the King's Boon plan since the only specific clue to her thoughts on it (that I remember seeing) is during their first date when Adolin talks about recent events involving Sadeas and it's there Shallan feels a burning desire to help Adolin - in a later chapter (after the duel) we see a general thought about needing to impress and excite Adolin but it's not clear if that influenced her previously. The thing that seemed to be most for her own benefit was deciding not to join Dalinar's clerk army and taking a massive leap of faith with Sebarial instead. She did consider more tactical benefits too but it all largely boiled down to having freedom, even if it did require her to work more. I'll also note that at the end of tWoK she decided that the threat from the Parshmen/Voidbringers was more important than her brothers. At the time, I was surprised she did that but she's consistently kept doing it during WoR. Summary: generally, the more I've dug into Shallan's character and story the more realistic I find her to be. She does have flaws, makes mistakes and does things that annoy me etc but for whatever reason (I have some ideas) she often doesn't get the benefit of the doubt while other characters do. But, maybe I'm wrong to defend her so much. Maybe you can change my mind like with Adolin. There's lots of ways to research this I guess. Lots of authors do "people watching" I think.

Yes, I go back to the thread I was replying to, click "more reply options" at the bottom then look for "view auto saved content". Maybe there's a simpler way though. Back on topic: I liked the background info on the Recreance. I've wondered before how big an impact it had on the world, culturally, economically, politically etc. I smiled at Brandon's computer programming experience and Elantris magic. I've sometimes thought you could liken a well defined magic system to highly specialised scripting languages like SQL or regular expressions (with a god-like entity managing the magic being like the computer).