StormyAngel

The Stormwardens seem to be closely allied/joined with the Sons of Honor, as Kelek's breath has indicated above. Especially since Amaram's notes were in Stormwarden glyph-script and the stormwarden was complicit in the murder of kaladin's men. Also don't forget that Gavilar did seem awfully close with Amaram. I want to highlight the fact that at one point in TWOK, one of the ardents goes to great lengths to assure Dalinar that "they" hold him in high esteem. He then promises to be in touch. This is either another potential group, or an ardent who is part of the existing groups we know about. (As the parshmen are proving, slaves (the ardentia are too) who have their hand in everything make potentially dangerous groups...) Interestingly, the person in charge of Taravangian's "Silent Gatherers" is also an ardent. We don't know much about him, except that he supposedly discovered the diagramists on his own, then joined them. To me, that just reeks of a spy being planted.

I agree that the judgement and assignment basis for the afterlife doesn't seem to fit, but I think there may still be some significance to calling the place Hell. The Shades certainly don't seem like nice happy people, so Sol Invictus theory strikes me as good. Given that we accept Sol Invictus' theory, I wonder why it is that the simple rules provoke them. Is breaking the simple rules really a spiritual action? Is it Cognitive? And why those three things in particular? The actions look more like they have a cognitive element to them, since drawing blood, starting a fire, and moving quickly are all actions tied into life one way or another.

OK, simple and whimsical theory here, and probably wrong. Shadows For Silence in the Forests of Hell is a cosmere work, one which Sanderson specifically said he wrote in order to highlight the Cosmere afterlife a bit. Or the...kind of afterlife. Whatever it is. Is it possible that he's just being ridiculously blunt, and the truth is in the title? Its the Forests of Hell. Therefore, these forests are the Cosmere's physical manifestation of Hell, the place where bad shardfolk go from all over the cosmere. It's too simplistic, but knowing Sanderson's habit for putting the truth in obvious places...I find it hard to let go. More importantly, I like the idea of trying to understand what this says about the cosmere afterlife by starting with this assumption. Instead of trying to figure out how this ties into the Cosmere afterlife by examining the shades' actions, let's examine their actions with the assumption that these are the shades in hell...

Only when it needs to be... This is my absolute least favorite chapter epigraph. Either it refers to someone I really don't want it to, and I hate it, or it refers to nobody I care about, and Sanderson is the cruelest troll ever. Unfortunately, I don't think this fits Nale. If anything, it's more like nine heralds betrayed Taln. Although I don't think they're all bad, I just doubt they're a very cohesive group. They seem more like a family that wishes they didn't have to spend so much time together.

That also gives him something colorful to draw on if he needs to awaken something...

Death rattles, Unmade, and seeing the future. It's too uncertain an area to draw any definite conclusions, but I think it's fair to say Sanderson uses them to foreshadow. Although he may just want them to build suspense and tension, since they do that really well. Makes me wonder if Odium will win in the end, but we'll just have to wait and see. See what you've done? Now I have even more reasons to worry about this series.

Well Shardblades are spren right? So the Half-Shards can probably only block them because they're augmented by a trapped spren. I'm not sure how far spread it is but I once heard a theory that shardplate is made up of spren. If that's true, then it make sense to me that a shield tied to a spren (even if it is imprisoned) could block a shardblade. The artifabrians accidently imitated shardplate.

Significantly, that mention was one of the few changes from the version we got in the newsletter. Meaning that Sanderson doesn't want us misinterpreting the line about being the last of the Rekoners as confirming her death. So she's probably still alive out there somewhere.

I think they don't have to be lies to be wrong. Remember how Sanderson described seeing the future works: like a breaking window, and the further you look the smaller the pieces get. Or was that Honor? I forget. Now i need to look it up. Yes that was honor see the end of WOK.

Shard Arrows could be super useful for assassinating people though. They think they're safe behind that thick stone wall, and besides, you couldn't possibly get close enough to cut a hole in the wall without being seen. But with a good bow and a Shard arrow...you've got no problems. Plus, it comes back to you so limitless ammo?

O.O I never could figure out how that first death rattle fit into it all. But if that combination is accurate, and the things you're extrapolating from it are as well...Then Stormfather! That strikes me as ominous. I don't disagree with the night/odium associations. (In fact, Nale being seen as such a dark figure by those who don't know who he is is part of the reason I think he's playing into Odium's hands.) In the interest of the books having any kind of happy or satisfying ending though I sincerely hope that this is wrong somehow.

So basically through hemalurgic spike, general influence, or Kandra servant: Sazed would be the one messing with Wax. For whatever purpose. And I sort of thought he liked Wax. Of course, Wax could just be suffering from a mental disorder or breakdown. The book is call "Shadows of Self" after all. That just screams "story about a man with a haunted past".

Hm. All very valid points pretty much just as possible if not more probable than my suggestions. This is probably the best argument though against my main point. The Parshendi may have been influenced, but they definitely wanted to kill Gavilar. And I had forgotten the Sons of Honor but given their goals and Gavilar's ties to them, that may not have been an entirely bad thing. Regarding Taravangian and Nale. I think maybe you're right, in that there's a certain logic to their points of view given what we know. I still can't shake the feeling though that they're playing into Odium's hands though. An unstable world isn't going to fend off Odium better with Taravangian actively depopulating and destabilizing it. Taravangian's plan is unfortunately doomed though because it's outside of his power to enforce it. As evidenced by Dalinar's survival, despite the supposed necessity of his death. There are some things he just won't be able to manage. I guess my main worry is with all these different groups: Former Heralds, Proto-Radiants, Diagramists, Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods, etc. that none of their plans are going to survive interaction intact. Instead they're all just going to ruin each other's survival plan and they could end up all failing. That's why the whole honorable means thing is so important. None of them can succeed if they're going to be destroying just as much as they're building. So Szeth under Nale's direction wins back the Honorblades. But what happens when Nale decides that he doesn't like the new Radiants? Suddenly we have powerful shardbearing/surgebinding enemies mixed in with the general chaos of the end of the world.

The Radiants good for Odium. Hmmmm. That would be a pretty awesome twist if Sanderson pulls it off, and would be something of a gamechanger for the series in my opinion. I think most of the evidence suggesting that comes from bad sources though, since Taravangian and Nale's actions seem to be playing into Odium's hands. In short, anyone with Kaladin: Good. Anyone against him: bad. (Yes, that's far too simplistic. But also fun to say!)

He's finished another book (the fifth?) but it won't be published until the new copies of the other four come out. I don't remember when exactly but the information's probably out there. Sometime in the next couple of years I think. Also, after that i think he said he was done. Oh, and welcome!

Ooh, this ties in really well with some thoughts I've been having lately. Taravangian's actions, while theoretically to save the world, are really all focused on making him King. That's in the diagram. He's basically decided that he's got to be in charge of everything in order to save a small portion of humanity, which has inadvertently led him to trying to cut down anyone more powerful than he is. Rather than raising nations up, he's tearing them down to his level. So i can totally buy him working under Odium's influence.

Possible, but also somewhat questionable. All of the Hemalurgy induced hallucinations were Ruin's doing. So the question would be, Why is Harmony messing with Wax's head? Another possibility for Bloody Tam: some Kandra ate his body. Again, not sure why he would be there (nor why he would run away), but either way Scadrial has way too many options when it comes to magical impersonation. I chalked the "bad life decision" up to marrying Steris, but it's entirely possible that Sanderson knows I would think that and is covering up something like using Hemalurgy. Wax just has a lot to feel grumpy about I guess.

Thanks! I may have to figure out how to avoid sharing too much thoughts, but i'm looking forward to a ton of fun discussions. Sanderson's worlds/universes are endlessly complex, so it's not like we'll ever run out.

I think it's safe to assume it's David, since he's been the only viewpoint character so far for the entire series. And it describes him pretty well. I actually think the prologue is just looking to be thematic. The whole book is supposedly going to be about reclaiming an Epic (prof) from those depths, not to mention supposedly reclaiming the world from calamity who was the source of those depths. It's pretty significant that David can both say that he's been there before, and that he feels the insistent pull that Epics must feel all the time. So while i agree it's hinting at something significant, I think it's also serving double-duty as simply laying out the main theme.

Yeah...I did overstate my case on a few points. It is fair to say that the Herald knows tons more than we do. I have a hard time imagining anything that justifies hunting radiants though, since the Everstorm came, and not because the Parshendi were fighting radiants. Simple Alethi did that job. Also, I probably didn't make it clear enough, but my assumption that Darkness is behind Szeth's assasinating Gavilar comes from the conversation Jasnah overheard between darkness ad the other herald. Namely: "I don't like this. What we've done was wrong. That creature carries my lord's own Blade. We shouldn't have let him keep it. He-" -Words of Radiance Prologue: To Question (Note, That's exact. Italics and capitalized Blade and everything.) Which I consider to be fairly strong evidence, because we know that Szeth had the Windrunner blade, and Jezerezeh was the leader of the Heralds. I'll give you the Shin though. It does irk me a bit that they've got all those honorblades, and probably know tons of secrets, and just contentedly sit on their supposed moral high ground. Reclusive. I'm really looking forward to learning more about their culture, because it's probably going to be fascinating. I doubt they'll come out of the series unchanged. Also, Darkness is not insane. I don't think I actually said he was. No, i'm accusing him of being evil. I think he's letting fear drive him forward, and that's playing into Odium's hands. And he really should know better. Thanks for playing devil's advocate. It helps to have some more perspective.

I doubt he has powers at this point actually. Remember that Epics can't gift their powers to other epics, and Prof gave him a pretty BIG gifting towards the end of Firefight. Calamity can always try again later. At least..I think it can.

I'm terrified of that combination. I'm pretty sure there's a WOB out there that says we should be too. What I wanted to discuss was the particular reason I find it so scary. In the process I enter somewhat speculative, and definitely spoileristic grounds. Also, this is a long one. Fair warning. Part 1: Introductions First off, Szeth. The guy gets a lot of flack, but I don't think any of us can deny he was a good person at some point. He hates killing. He believed the desolation was returning, and tried to raise the warning. He truly believed he was wrong, and accepted his punishment. These are all attributes of a good person. Unfortunately his life shot straight to Rosharan Damnation from there. He lost his sanity, and pretty much became a hateful, hated person. Odius even. Look at Nin/Nale/Nalan/Darkness. He at some point volunteered for a very harsh duty of which we know only a little bit. It involved perpetual war, desolation, death, and torture. I'm not trying to say his actions are excusable, but we do know that he spent centuries suffering. He's undoubtedly broken. Nightblood is...Nightblood. That's enough (even though he is a fun character). Part 2: Examining Interactions When I first read the scene with Darkness (I'm sticking with Lift's name here: I think it's the most accurate) saving Szeth, I was actually a little happy. I was thinking, "Ooh Cool! Szeth's going to become a Skybreaker! He'll team up with the new Radiant's a couple of books down the line and make up for what he's done! This is awesome!" Upon further reflection though, and a reread or two, I actually suspect that absolutely nothing has changed for Szeth. We know from Szeth's point of view, that Darkness was there talking to Elhokar the night Gavilar was killed. Along with another nondescript fellow. Jasnah's POV of this event reveals that they're both Heralds disguising themselves as ambassadors, since the other one definitely refers to Szeth's Honorblade as Jezerezeh's. This other herald clearly says he doesn't feel comfortable with what they've done in regards to Szeth holding the Honorblade. What does this mean? Shallan wonders at one point how in the world the Parshendi ever came across Szeth. It's an encounter of such amazing fortuity, that it's hard to believe it wasn't brought about by some third party. It was, of course. It was Darkness and company behind it. They wanted Gavilar dead, for reason's I'll get to shortly. This means that the people behind Szeth's long, loooong trail of death and destruction are? Darkness himself. He started him on it and, as his comments reveal, watched him every step of the way (rosharan television, anyone?). (As a small aside here: some might think Taravangian was behind Szeth's truthless expulsion, in order to use him later. That doesn't seem right to me though, because Taravangian only learned of the Everstorm from Gavilar that very night, prompting him to visit the Nightwatcher in order to gain the capacity to save the world. The diagram came later.) So Szeth has never really changed hands. Darkness set him on the path to accomplish a goal. He didn't care what happened to him afterwards except to observe, but finally stepped in at the end. So if Szeth really follows Darkness further, he's only going to continue doing the same things that drove him crazy in the first place. Serving the same master, for the same goals. Except this time with Nightblood. Part 3: My Conclusion Why is that so scary? Because of what Darknesses goals are. How has he acted, that we've seen? Darkness has spent his time arranging the death of Gavilar (a.k.a. honor's visions recipient), and proto-radiants. Surgebinders specifically. He goes to all the trouble in the world to hunt down any infraction of the law that they have ever made, so that he can kill them. He's subverting the law to his purposes, essentially. This is supposedly because he believes that doing so will prevent the desolation returning. He's hunting down and killing mankind's only hope out of some delusional belief that doing so will keep Odium away. Maybe he knows something I don't, but that honestly looks like the stupidest idea I've ever seen. (I have a theory that the ten fools are based on the attributes of the nine fallen heralds...) Just like the stormfather at the end of book 2, his solution is to try and sweep it all under the rug by killing the radiants. And just as syl described the stormfather: he's clearly broken. To top it all off, he's an arrogant, hypocritical guy too. He barely tolerates the other herald in Jasnah's POV, and I suspect that he retrieved his own Honorblade too. Since the Shin only had 8 to begin with, and one just mysteriously vanished (if Taravangian wasn't lying that is...). And wasn't he the last herald to accept the order that followed him? Why on earth is he leading their pale imitation now? A change of heart based on their usefulness maybe? So where does this leave us? A broken herald who can and will kill anyone he sees as a threat, mistakenly pursuing the deaths of those who are best able to fight back against Odium. He's knowledgeable, can subvert his own sense of justice to serve his own purposes, leads a group of people called the Skybreakers (I doubt their investiture), has a bunch of handy tricks up his sleeve such as captive-stormlight-draining bats, and Szeth armed with Nightblood too. He's currently leading the charge against the Shin, who are only guilty of being too peace-loving to face the truth. I kind of suspect he wants to collect the honorblades they have, although I'm sure he'll tell Szeth it's for justice. Szeth may feel better at first, taking his pent up rage out on those who he feels are responsible: the shin leaders/people. But after they move on past Shinovar...I think he'll realize that nothing has really changed. If it weren't for Darkness's influence, and losing his sanity, I might have been able to trust Szeth with Nightblood. Unfortunately, I just don't see this combination ending well for anybody. Except Nightblood, because I doubt he can die. So, there it is. Thoughts? Arguments? I realize there's little direct source material in here but I'll be happy to hunt it down for anyone who asks. Let me know what you think.

I really agree, although given Prof's fear of falling to the epic side, I think that considering his own weakness would have been too much to face for him. And since Plan A was not turning evil in the first place, planning for it would sort of demonstrate a lack of confidence... Personally, I think Prof's fear is a fear of losing. He hates games of chance, because they're out of his control and so he could lose. He clearly wouldn't mind winning, since he did enjoy the trip to NASA anyway. So in a way Megan is probably best suited to use his weakness against him. With a clever use of illusions, she can make him believe that he's lost. The worst part of this is knowing that Sanderson has definitely put all the necessary information in the first two books (cause he does stuff like that) but I still can't figure it out for certain. Gahh, I can't wait for Calamity.

Hey there! I have long been a fan of Brandon Sanderson, starting with Elantris back in 2011, then reading almost everything else he's written since. Truthfully I've been following from behind the scenes for a while, content to read theories and WOB questions (and answers) that other people came up with. But then a couple ideas occurred to me that I have to share, so...here I am! Let's have a good time obsessing over the cosmere and other stuff.