Aoibheann

Sorry for the late reply.  

Quick note on chronology - I know I've seen or heard WoB that he generally writes chronologically unless otherwise noted (ie. flashbacks). 

The confrontation/meeting between Szeth and Mr. T occurs outside an interlude, it's in chapter 71: Recorded in Blood.  We can assume that it's happening between or concurrently with chapters 70 (Sea of Glass) and 72 (Veristitalian), both focusing on Shallan and Jasnah.  

The boat which Jasnah has chartered will be coming tomorrow.  Will Szeth ride with Jasnah and Shallan to the Shattered Plains?

@Hoser - 

You know, I'm reminded of this conversation between Kal and Sigzil (page 576, Kindle):

 

"...  The men say that you're secretly a lighteyes of very high rank."

"What?  But my eyes are dark brown!"

"Pardon me," Sigzil said.  "I didn't speak the right word - you don't have the right word in your language.  To you, a lighteyes is the same as a leader.  In other kingdoms, though, other things make a man a... curse this Alethi language.  A man of high birth.  A brightlord, only without the eyes.  Anyway, the men think you must have been raised outside of Alethkar. As a leader."

 add that to your quote above:

I hadn't thought about how long Odium has been working on Roshar.  I would guess he (Odium) has been there since at least the last desolation.  I had assumed Odium was behind the torment of Heralds between desolations.  Perhaps he took a break to visit Sel, contributing to the longer time between desolations. 

Assuming the Thrill is from Odium, I'm thinking that the Thrill could certainly influence Sunmaker to change theology in a way that allowed/encouraged him toward more wars.  It may not be direct, but that would certainly be influence.  

While Brandon has used this type of tactic at other places in the Cosmere, I don't think it would be cheap to use it again.  It just shows that Shards are influential in the worlds they touch.  

I agree that "a long time" is relative.  However the fact that it's mentioned is pretty significant.  I know there are other theories about what happened to Gaz.  I'm not convinced (I'll discuss under the theory if I think it will add to the discussion). 

I buy the idea that Hoid ended up with the broam because Gaz needed to buy Hoid off (or thought he did).  

I think Gaz left because he's a Herald.  Lamaril threatened him with the bridgecrews; Hashal is more likely to do it than Lamaril was.  He knows better than most that it's a death sentence.  He can't afford to die (he'll be sent back to damnation - maybe).  With a desolation coming, he most especially can't afford to die, he'll be tortured until the next desolation; forever if there are no more. 

I sort of proposed this theory in another thread, but wasn't ready to commit to it at the time.  I still can't come up with a better idea.  So here it is:  Gaz is a Herald.

As I've been puzzling over Gaz's disappearance, I've always been struck by the following quote:

page 473:

Stormfather, Gaz thought, I hate myself for being a part of this. But he'd hated himself for a long time now. It wasn't anything new to him.

It makes me wonder exactly how old Gaz is. This seems to be a really important thing to be said. It sounds like he feels like he's worthless because he gave up on his honor and he doesn't deserve a better life than he has right now. 

It would also make his statement about ending up in a bridge crew very telling.  What would happen to a herald who died a normal death?  Would he end up in damnation?  that would be plenty of motivation to leave the armies at the Shattered Plains.  Being a bridge sergeant was relatively protected.  

Gaz = Herald could impact the motivations of other many other characters including Hoid.   

Which Herald is he?  I don't know.  If Vev is female, it can't be her, despite the connection to the eyes.  If Jezrien is in the WoK prologue, then I'd guess Ishtar.   

Thoughts? 

I realized I hadn't updated this thread after my theory was debunked.  I asked Brandon at GenCon 2012.  No, Taravangian is not Jezrien or any other Herald.  

When I asked, Brandon looked around as if he really wanted to answer, but just said no.  Taravangian has something different going on (which we now know is the variable intelligence).  

Im not sure I think its true, but Brandon did say we had seen several heralds...

Again - I'm not willing to say it either

Another thought - Maybe Gaz's past, whatever it is, could have impacted Hoid to give him a way out.

As I've been puzzling over Gaz's disappearance, I've always been struck by the following quote:

page 473:

Stormfather, Gaz thought, I hate myself for being a part of this. But he'd hated himself for a long time now. It wasn't anything new to him.

It makes me wonder exactly how old Gaz is. This seems to be a really important thing to be said. I'm not sure that I'm ready to say he's immortal, but it sounds like he feels like he's worthless because he gave up on his honor and he doesn't deserve a better life than he has right now.

That could impact the motivations of other characters.

For the most part seems good to me. The one thing I would object to is no one knowing what Vorinism was like before the Sunmaker. I think there was a small group that kept that knowledge alive. The group that Teft's family was a part of. I base that statement on the this quote:

Ooooooo... I think you're right. I hadn't thought about the Envisagers as anti-Sunmaker. It makes lots of sense.

They did have to be secret - and Teft betrayed them... To whom?

aloha Aoibheann, great to have you here

indeed PvZ is a great game and you're in the right place to enjoy the Cosmere XD

Thanks!

I've even hooked my 7 yo. She (on her own) decided to be a PvZ Zombie for Halloween. She took a sunflower... Many people were very confused by the girl-child zombie with a sunflower.

Welcome! Have a cookie.

Thanks for the cookie! I think I'll have to enjoy that in the cognitive realm.

Greetings!

I've been lurking for a bit and recently started posting. I'm really enjoying reading the discussions on the board.

I've been reading Brandon's work for a while and find it all very engrossing. At this point I think I've read all of his Cosmere books at least 2 or 3 times each. I'm about to launch into Alcatraz. The best thing about the Cosmere is that each book gives us small details about how everything fits together, but the clues are so naturally dropped into each book. Nothing is immediately apparent.

Complex epic fantasy and some spec fiction is really my favorite type. I really got into WoT, and I think that Brandon has added a great deal by finishing that series. The recent books have seemed more focused. I'm reading some Neal Stephenson right now as well.

In my copious amounts of spare time I'm a working mom who also happens to enjoy weaving - and Tango. My favorite games right now are Sentinels of the Multiverse (Wraith reminds me LOTS of Vin) and Plants v. Zombies.

I think that's it for the initial intro.

Aoibheann

From looking through TWoK for references to The Sunmaker, I think that this historical figure was corrupted by Odium and rewrote the theology completely. We don't really know what the theology was prior to his interference.

There are three references to "The Sunmaker" in tWoK:

"All wars are games. The greatest kind, with the pieces lost real lives, the prizes captured making for real wealth! This is the life for which men exist. To fight, to kill to win." He was quoting the Sunmaker, the last Alethi king to unite the highprinces. Gavilar had once revered his name.

Jasnah sniffed. "Your tutors were idiots. Youthful immaturity is one of the cosmere's great catalysts for change, Shallan. Do you realize that the Sunmaker was only seventeen when he began his conquest?"

"Don't get ahead of me please, bright one," Kadash assured, turning back toward him. "When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate an control the people."

Given the bits that we know above, I believe Vorin theology is completely skewed by what a blood-thirsty 17-year-old wanted it to be.

Kadash pursed his lips. "It is a delicate balance we walk, bright one. Do you know much of the Hierocracy, the War of Loss?"

"The church tried to seize control, " Adolin said, shrugging. "The priests tried to conquer the world - for it's own good, they claimed."

"That was part of it," Kadash said. "The part we spoke of most often. But the problem goes much deeper. The church back then, it clung to knowledge. Men were not in command of their own religious paths; the priests controlled the doctrine, and a few members of the Church were allowed to know theology. They were taught to follow the priests. Not the Almighty or the Heralds, but the priests."

Supposedly no one knew what the theology truly was prior to the Sunmaker, afterwards people know, but it's shaped through the Sunmaker's lens.

I've posted the previous incarnation of this theory over at Stormblessed.com, but I would love to get opinions over here as well.

Thoughts?

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't considered this idea, but it makes lots of sense.

We know that Miles had metal inside his body at his execution.

He was shot again. Her eyes open, her nerves steeled, she was able to watch with horror as his wounds started to heal. It should have been impossible. They'd searched him carefully for metalminds. Yet the bullet holes pulled closed, and his smile widened, his eyes wild.

We also know that a powerful emotional allomancer can take over another person, even with Ruin in control:

Vin took a deep breath, then hit Marsh with a duralumin-Soothing. If it worked on koloss and kandra, why not Inquisitors?

Marsh stumbled. Vin's Push lasted a brief moment, but during it she felt something. A wall, like she'd felt the first time she'd tried to control TenSoon or the first time she'd taken control of a group of koloss.

She Pushed, Pushed with everything she had. In a burst of power, she came close to seizing control of Marsh's body, but not close enough. The wall within his mind was too strong, and she only had one vial's worth of metal to use.

<snipping out a bit - she draws on the mists....>

And, with that power, she Pushed on Marsh's emotions.

The wall inside of him cracked, then burst. For a moment, Vin felt a sense of vertigo. She saw things through Marsh's eyes - indeed, she felt like she understood him. His love of destruction, and his hatred of himself. And through him, she caught a brief glimpse of something. A hateful, destructive thing that hid behind a mask of civility.

This makes me wonder if, given Breeze's strength in Soothing, Edwarn isn't a Soother or Rioter.

You can do that yourself in the bottom left of the post there are a series of buttons, one of the ones you should see on your own posts is the delete button.

Thank you - I didn't see that option on the mobile version, but I found it on the full version. Sorry for making things more difficult.

Here's the quote that everyone is looking for:

Dalinar charged toward the king, moving with a speed and grace no man - not even one wearing Shardplate - should be able to manage. He leaped over a rock shelf, then ducked and skidded beneath a claw swinging for him. Other men thought they understood Shardblades and Shardplate, but Dalinar Kholin... at times, be proved them all children.

Dalinar straightened and leaped - still moving forward cresting by inches a second claw that smashed apart the rocky shelf behind him.

It was all just a moment. A breath. The third claw was falling toward the king, and Dalinar roared, leaping forward. He dropped his blade - it hit the ground and puffed away - as he skidded beneath the falling claw. He raised his hands and - And he caught it. He bent beneath the blow, going down on one knee, and the air rang with a resounding clang of carapace against armor.

But he caught it.

Stormfather! Adolin thought, watching his father stand over the king, bowed beneath the enormous weight of a monster many times his size. Shocked archers hesitated. Sadeas lowered his grandbow. Adolin's breath caught in his chest.

Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow. The beast trumpeted above, and Dalinar bellowed back a powerful, defiant yell.

All emphasis is Brandon's.

It's interesting to me that the comment about the glow is after the Shardblade puffs away.

What if Heralds have a power over their own appearance, similar to the Returned in Warbreaker?

It would make it easier to insert yourself into a royal family at the right time.

Just an idea...

to add a bit the the quote that Hoser posted above:

Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered.

(snip) A few windspren danced past in the air, nearly invisible. (snip)

Life before death.

What was that voice? p. 381

Those windspren/honorspren could be attracted to Dalinar and/or his men. We certainly have the idea that Dalinar and his men are the most honorable around.

We also don't know what other kinds of spren may be out there, looking like windspren.

What if the Safe Hand were related to the female Knight's healing of Dalinar/Heb in the vision?

Both Knights who came to help Heb, Taffa and Seeli fight off the Midnight Essence, but the female night has "Regrowth" which she uses for healing. We don't know which hand she uses...

"Be at peace," a voice said.

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man's hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm. Her hair was pulled back into a bun. She raised a hand and touched his forehead.

Ice washed across him. Suddenly, his pain was gone. 306

Imagine if Knights Radiant worked in Male/Female teams; the female Knights having the power to heal or keep people safe... It could make it almost sacrilegious to use that hand for mundane tasks.

I know that no one has posted on this in quite a while, but I want to expand on this theory...

I agree with Munin - Jezrien is evil, or at least misguided... I don't think that he's the face that Kal sees in the storms though.

From the Prologue we know he's broken - but still regal

Jezrien’s voice was calm, deep, regal. Though he hadn’t worn a crown in centuries,his royal manner lingered. He always seemed to know what to do. 17

There, in Jezrien’s eyes, Kalak saw anguish and grief. Perhaps even cowardice. This was a man hanging from a cliff by a thread.

Almighty above, Kalak thought. You’re broken too,aren’t you? They all were. 18

He then starts espousing something that, at the very least, would make Syl uncomfortable:

“Better that one man should suffer than ten,”Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light fallingon someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind. 19

This sounds eerily similar to Taravangian:

The king turned to Szeth. “It is better for one man to sin than for a people to be destroyed, wouldn’t you say, Szeth-son-son-Vallano?” 977

Even some of the descriptions of bearing are similar between the two:

Jezrien’s voice was calm, deep, regal. Though he hadn’t worn a crown in centuries,his royal manner lingered. He alwaysseemed to know what to do. 17

King Taravangian was no simpleton. He had keen eyes and a wise, knowing face,rimmed with a full white beard… 976

I think that Taravangian is Jezrien. I don't know if he's working for Odium or trying to make up for the poor decision to end the Oathpact. I think he's lost his way and is no longer the man that became a Herald.