Nef

8 hours ago, Harbour said:

Boom! My mind is blown. Only now i realized that it might be Shallan's personality (one of the three) who said this. Person itself isnt able to "fade away", but the "illusion" of the girl Adolin knows able.

She meant it not figuratively, but literally.

What looks like the SW prequel level of cringeworthy line might be one of the most obvious hints on Shallan' fragmentation.

Yep, I've also chosen to interpret Shallan's words literally as well.

That said, I wouldn't call that Shallan persona an illusion as it implies it's fake, which I disagree with. My opinion is that that persona is actually her anchor persona that she has to somehow consolidate her other personas into. I think the more she represses the Shallan personality (which she does because she hates herself) the more erratic her personality shifts become.

Hence, why I think Adolin is the right partner for her as he helps her anchor the Shallan personality as a starting point to her journey of integration. I think a gentle hand of support and acceptance is what Adolin will provide. He can be there to whisper sweet nothings into Shallan's ear so that she fill self worth. On the other hand, I don't think Kaladin would have delicacy or patience to be a good help to Shallan. When Kaladin sees a problem he tends to want it fixed instantly and can tend to take a figurative hammer to the situation.

@the_archduke I expect and hope that Shallan and Adolin will be happy together. What I will maintain is that Shallan and Kaladin have/had an attraction to one another and I don't think OB resolved how this attraction could disappear from book 4 onwards. My hope is that the attraction will just be a minor undercurrent going forwards with Kaladin and Shallan maturing their separate ways, only for it to resurface later on.

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Totally fair enough! Tho, I would respectfully suggest that you stay out if this thread - for you own good! I mean, I for one can't seem to stop scratching at the wound and making it bleed all over again. I don't want to bring others down with me! 

@PhineasGage I'm totally identifying with you right now. I know I could save a lot of emotional energy and accept the relationship statuses at face value and intially that was what I was ready to do at the end of OB. But nope I find myself back on the Shalladin ship. It's mainly because the facts that have been presented as foreshadowing of a continuation of the Shalladin ship have been so convincing to me.

4 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Besides tell me there wasn't more chemistry in that one Kaladin/Jasnah interaction than the whole damnation triangle. 

I do find myself seeing the beauty in Shallan and Kaladin ending up together after experiencing of a journey of significant relationships with other people. After all, I will maintain that the two of them aren't ready for one another in their current states. So given that Adolin is Shallan's "significant relationship", the question is who is Kaladin's? And I'm really starting to like the idea of Jasnah being that person, age difference aside.

They barely know another at the moment, but we do know that what Kaladin is attracted to; a high-functioning, resilient version of Shallan that she hasn't developed into yet. In my mind Jasnah actually fits this bill and the fact that Shallan often tries to emulate Jasnah reinforces my assertion I think. The reveal that Jasnah has a compassionate and merciful side tells me they could be compatible on an emotional level as well. 

HOnestly, I really want an ultimate Radiant couple! Jasnah and Kaladin can be that couple; the two of them possess the most will and drive out of all the Urithiru crew, they're both relentless in their passion to "save the world".

@kari-no-sugata I kinda get what you mean when you say that interactions between Shallan and Kaladin weren't overtly romantic but only if we're talking about the physical attraction type romantic. I felt the chasm scene between Shallan and Kaladin was about an attraction on a deeper emotional level whereby they each recognised the depth of another's character. From then on I would say its pretty clear that they are both physically attracted to one another, which we get from Shallan's inner monolgues and Kaldin's interactions with Syl.

Regarding emotional connection, I really hope we get another scene with Shallan and Kaladin like that because I think they both see in one another attributes that would make them a stronger person without recongising that its actually their weakness as well. What i mean is, on one hand we see that Kaladin views in Shallan an ability to do what needs to be done without letting traumatic experiences impede her ability to function. We already see that Kaladin's emotions can cause him to operate on subdued level or even completely freeze up. However he obviously doesn't recognise the fact that she achieves this by over compartmentalizing to the point she's splitting her personalities/completely suppressing her feelings.

On the other hand we have Shallan attracted to Kaladin's passion and strength of emotion and I think its because she wishes she would be able to function without suppressing her feelings. I think she recognises that Kaladin's passion is what drives him towards all his noble actions without knowing that the same strength of emotion causes him to second guess himself.

It seemed like we were going to get a heart to heart in Shadesmar when Kaladin approached Shallan for a conversation; Kaladin was hinting at his depression and Shallan could have let Kaladin know that she functions via unhealthy compartmentalization. And maybe that could have led them the conclusion that a maybe a balance between their two mental states is what they want, but alas Shallan was not ready and we may never get a connection like we had in the chasms.

One thing that OB really delivered for me was the fact that we got to see a lot more of Kaladin through the viewpoint of other characters, something that I wanted more of in WoR . By WoR he had already demonstrated extraordinary acts of heroism and leadership and yet when he showed up in other characters POVs it always seemed strange to me that it was hardly acknowledged. We get a lot of "Kaladin Acknowledgement"  in OB and it really did stir my heart as Kaladin fan.

I did however, also feel a twinge of disappointment when it be came clear that he was going take a more backseat role in OB, but I agree that it also seemed to me that they were saving his progression for later books. Him swearing another oath and saving the day would have been too much of a good thing 3 books in a row, so when he finally does swear his 4th oath its going to be that much sweeter for the wait.

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'm more or less thinking about the stuff, that was mentioned regarding the sapphire wedding gown... I mean, why sapphire? The traditional color in Vorinism for weddings is red. I would have understood Kholin blue, but that has never been described as sapphire. Sapphire is the color of Windrunners and has been defined as such multiple times. And the fact, that Veil doesn't really seem to be convinced of Adolin. Those little hints were always Brandon's style. I don't know why... it just seems odd, but maybe I'm just deluding myself.

 

Hmm, interesting thoughts. I interpreted Sapphire as representing Kholin blue, Elkohar mentions that Kholinar is attached to the Windrunner Order somehow.

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Especially, because it continues after the fact that Adolin and Shallan is getting married for reasons you already supplied. Annoys me to no end. If it is done, let it rest.

From memory, the last scene where Shallan expresses any attraction to Kaladin is the scene where essentially tells Adolin that she's decided on him. I think most people are going to take Shallan on her word that her attraction to Kaladin is merely aesthetic. After this we find out that Shallan and Adolin have a date set for marriage and I don't remember Shallan having any significant thoughts about Kaladin in her subsequent POV.

That said, you guys are really making me come around to the idea that the love triangle might not be concluded. It really is strange that we went from inner dialogues of Kaladin and Shallan seeming to "get" each other after chasm scene in WoR to the latter part of OB where it's heavily implied that Shallan was only superficially attracted to Kaladin and Kaladin kinda didn't understand Shallan after all. It does feel like a waste.

What scares me though is imagining how BS is suppose to pull off a continuation of the love triangle after faking a conclusion in OB. It'll take masterful writing and a lot of bravery to make it work given how contentious it is having a love triangle in the first place.

Wow, having just finished the book, reading this thread has been cathartic as many of you have helped me crystallize my own thoughts on the love triangle. Like others have expressed, I was also left deeply unsatisfied with the conclusion of the love triangle at the end of the OB, which is a testament to Sanderson's ability to create characters that I'm inordinately invested in.

Now, although I feel that the conclusion of the love triangle was sudden and I was hoping for more development, I do hope the love triangle has really ended. Mainly because, although I'm less than satisfied with how we got there, I think Shallan is better off with Adolin. I just think that Kaladin and Shallan don't fit together. In my mind Kaladin is simply operating on a different level to Shallan. His thoughts are so altruistic and he asks himself philosophical and theological questions that Shallan, even if she wanted to, probably can't concern herself about because she's dealing with her serious psychological issues. Shallan clearly needs someone willing to dedicate themselves to supporting her through her issues and Kaladin stretches himself too thin to be that person.

That said, I was previously a Shallan x Kaladin shipper just because I really like the idea of a Radiant power couple. It would provide us with a much different dynamic to our other main couple of Dalinar and Navani whereby one member tends to funcation mainly as an emotional support and tends to unquestionably abide by the directives of the more "important" member. The Shallan and Adolin couple is shaping up to be much the same in my mind; Shallan clearly decides on Adolin because he can emotionally support her and Adolin sees himself as the less important member of the couple.

I imagined a Kaladin and Shallan power couple acting more as equals and the relationship being an exploration of conflicting ideas and compromise (and cool scenes where the couple has each others' backs on the battlefield). With Shallan taken, hopefully Kaladin can find an nice Radiant life partner, or even just a normal life partner...it would be really sad if my favorite character ends up alone .

16 hours ago, Silarn said:

On a separate note, I don't think many people have commented on Syl's change of appearance yet. I'm wondering if this has to do with Identity. As Kaladin and Syl bond more closely and speaks more oaths, is Syl gaining more of his Identity and thinking of herself as Alethi? Before now, we haven't seen any indication that she cared a whit about Alethi mores and customs, but here she is donning Alethi garb and covering her safehand. Something she apparently put a lot of thought into - though she could always be pulling Kal's leg, I suppose.

That part where Syl mentions how long she thought about her dress intrigued me as well. I think she was about to say something very interesting before she was distracted.

My guess; she was about to innocently embarrass Kaladin by saying something along the lines of, "I spent positively hours thinking of just how to replicate the look of that red haired girl you can't stop looking at" 

Yeah, I'm reluctant to give Renarin a hard time for acting weird. I think his behavior is understandable in the light of the fact that he can see a dark future and is freaking out because he's not sure what to do.

Heck, I use to freak out when I could see my dark future when exam time was approaching at the end of each semester.

22 hours ago, Daishi5 said:

I don't see Laral at all as being a squire, she grew up to be one of the arrogant light eyes that Kaladin hates.  When Kaladin reminds her the way Roshone treated his father and how he as good as killed Tien, she replies that Lirin had spoken bad of Roshone.  

You make valid points but I think you're projecting based upon unconfirmed assumptions. Do we really know if Laral has grown into an arrogant lighteyes? From the little we've read about her in chapter 7 it seemed to me that she had earned the respect of her household. At a stretch, one could assume that she had gained that respect by demonstrating a willingness to protect the people of hearthstone from a position of authority, thus aligning herself to Kaladin's ideals.

Sure she was haughty to Kaladin upon their reunion but he had suddenly appeared out of nowhere, punched her husband and proceeded to take control of her household. And I like to think she was overcompensating after realizing her spurned childhood sweetheart has now returned as dreamy, super-hot warrior dude, inwardly her heart was racing .

Okay, I admit I have a petty desire to see more payoff from Laral realizing that Kaladin has now grown into a better man than she could have ever imagined. In order for this to happen we will need more interaction between Kaladin and Laral, which could easily happen if a situation arises where Kaladin is escorting the people of Hearthstone to safety. Kaladin might have to depend on Laral's familiarity with inner-workings of the Hearthstone populace and Laral may witness Kaladin's inspirational leadership firsthand. This was where my head was at when I first proposed Laral become a squire. The members of Bridge 4 all have varying backgrounds but were common in their acceptance of Kaladin as their leader and they all seem to have ended up as squires.

Not that I necessarily want to see the pairing of Kaladin and Laral. Rather, Kaladin's "ma boi" and I want to see him have the attention of multiple ladies (candidates being Shallan, Syl, Lift, Laral, Jasnah!?... Eshonai!?!?!). The irony would be that Kaladin has exactly the personality to not realize such an embarrassment of riches in feminine affection.

I wonder if Kaladin will pick up some more squires besides the members of bridge 4? I think it would be interesting if a female character (eg. Laral) became a windrunner member.

Words cannot express how appreciative I am for having 3 Kaladin chapters in a row. I was expecting to have to wait weeks for the resolution to the end of chapter 6!

10 hours ago, Farnsworth said:

Having your hand slide like that is the mark of a really bad punch. It doesn't mean Kal is a bad fighter to throw a punch like this once in a while, but it certainly isn't great enough to talk about.

I interpreted the sliding of the fist across the face as Kaladin controlling his punch to ensure it didn't do maximum damage. Realistically a strong and decently sized person like Kaladin making full blooded connection with a naked fist has the potential to kill, especially to an unsuspecting person . 

Although immensely satisfying, i feel that Kaladin's punch was ultimately immature and shows how much his character has to grow to be the epitome of an honorable person that I imagine he will be by the end of his development cycle.

I imagine that Kaladin's desire for justice to be served was overwhelming in the moment and his emotions dictated his actions but in the end of the day one of the deadliest warriors on Roshar physically dominated a crippled aging man without direct provocation.

According to Dalinar, there are people who would disagree, but there also is others who would agree. It ain't black and white, not everyone will by horrified by what he did.

 

As for Dalinar, I do not think he needs to be lenient, but he needs to provide a throughout fair trial for his son during which Adolin's actions would be weighted against Sadeas's treachery and threat. Dalinar cannot simply condemn his son on the spot: if he does so, he will lose support, of that I am convinced. A fair trial would underline Adolin had legitimate motives to slay Sadeas and would most likely step out with a light sentence. Quite probably, he would need to hand over his Shards, in a public manner and repay House Sadeas with either land or Shards. He may be forced to abduct from his title as heir, but I do not think a fair trial would ensue him a death or a banishment sentence.

I guess without actually knowing how the law works, its hards to speculate on what if any punishment will be administered.

I 100% agree that there are facts surrounding Adolin's action's that can be used in his defence. However, my response was more in respects to the possibility of Adolin being Dalinar's son having an impact on the leniency of his sentence.

The problem also lies within the fact Adolin's crime does not deserve the harsh line. If I were a Highprince, I would get very cold feet at seeing a man I thought I respected do this to his own son over the death of man guilty of slaughtering half his army. I think Desolation or no, there will be Highprinces to oppose themselves to give so much power to man incapable of showing compassion towards his flesh and bone, a boy everyone knows he loves. 

 

I would think if Dalinar was lenient towards Adolin simply because he's his son, a lot of people would see that as corruption.

IRL, for instance, if a politician's son committed a murder and got away with a slap on the wrists due to the position of their parent, people would be outraged.

I actually think a lot of people would think Adolin's actions as outrageous, irrespective of Sadeas being a huge scum bag. Adolin basically decided to rage kill Sadeas, there were no special circumstances to argue such as self-defence. A civilised course of action would have been to gather evidence against Sadeas and then try him - then a death penalty can be administered.

I think that while both Dalinar and Kaladin will be able to empathise with Adolin's actions but they will both recognise the murder as a crime. Following this, I think Dalinar will feel that the honourable course of action is to administer some sort of justice in response to the crime.

I feel that both Dalinar and Kaladin are in a camp of ethics where certain actions are wrong no matter the person's good intentions or the outcome. I think Dalinar has held this ethical position from the beginning (he follows  a strict honour code), while Kaladin developed into this ethical position by the end of WoR.

On the other hand I can see Shallan being able justifying Adolin's actions. She probably sits more in an ethical camp where an action can be justified based upon a person's good intentions for an overall beneficial outcome. Certainly she has no issue deploying good intentioned deception/subterfuge.

I feel like distinction in the wording used to reference the actions of the Heralds versus that of the Radiants could indicate that the speaker is a Spren. In referencing the actions of the Heralds versus that of the Radiants, the speaker describes the Heralds' actions as abandonment versus the more strongly worded "turned against".

Perhaps I could be looking too deeply into the language used, but it seems to reflect the actions of the Heralds and the Radiants accurately from a Spren's standpoint given we what we knew i.e. the actions of the Radiants hurt the Spren and I imagine the actions of the Heralds was simply abandonment as stated.

I'm also leaning towards it being a powerful spren given it seem to be an omnipresent entity able to monitor our four protagonists and is accurately familiar with the history of Roshar.

Regarding the value of prophecies, I honestly can't remember the last fantasy book I've read that didn't feature a prophecy of some sort as part of their plot, and for good reason in my opinion. Usually a prophecy poses more questions than answers leading the reader to ponder possibilities. Much like the prophecy that is the topic of this thread.

Hello,

I've been lurking these forums for the last couple of weeks and I can't contain myself any longer, I have to jump into the fray for some juicy cosmere discussion!

Anyway, a bit about myself. I've read the two available books in the Stormlight Archive and the first mistborn trilogy.

I'm a particularly big fan of the Stormlight Archive and rank the two available books in my top 10 favourites of all time.

With that said, its time for me to head into the Stormlight Archive section of these forums see ya'll there .