Nef

Its clear we all sit somewhere on a spectrum; some of us find more enjoyment in characterisation/character interaction and others lean towards world-building/lore etc. The Stormlight books also fit on the spectrum. For TWoK and WoR, being the first books, there was more character work as the characters had to be fleshed out by necessity. With the characters established, the pendulum has swung more towards world building and lore. Some of the character stuff is clearly stated rather than shown eg. We know Kaladin and Jasnah don't get along, but we've only had a short interaction between the two in OB, other than that we get a few sentences throughout RoW stating the fact. On the other hand we had a more space dedicated to fabrials, callouts to the greater cosmere etc compared to previous entries in the series. That's said, we're still getting good character work, for example chapter 12 spent time establishing the Kaladin-Adolin-Shallan friendship. Personally, I also prefer a balance more towards characterisation (more chapters like chapter 12) but I can understand how RoW is some peoples' favourite entry in the series. In fact, even though I don't read other series in the cosmere, I've found myself researching on coppermind because, give i'm invested in the characters, I also care about the world they live in.

I immediately thought: "likely cool scene where listeners save the day, entering the battle with chasmfiends".

The Stormfather does say something along of the lines of Honor loving humans and sacrificing himself for their sake. At face value, that statement doesn't really fit with Honor wishing for endless cycle of warfare. There have been various warrior cultures that have a strong honor system, so I understand the theory. That said, soldiers also value honor (at least in an army with a good culture). The distinction between a soldier and a warrior being the former fights to live/protect, the latter lives to fight. Soldiers wish for the end of conflict, warriors don't.

I doubt this will turn out to be the main focus of Kaladin's arc in book 5, it will almost certainly evolve into something larger in scope. With Kaladin going with Szeth, their two arcs will be related and placing Kaladin in contact with Ishar who has been there from the "beginning" as well as the Shin (who also seem to know a lot) is perfect to finally reveal questions that have been around since book 1.

Overall enjoyed the book. Was better than OB for me, but not up to TWoK and WoR. Definitely agree that the cosmere info dumps are often too convenient. I'm often wiling to give a pass when an ally is passing info to an ally e.g. when Zahel was speaking to Kaladin, but i don't find it believable when an adversary info dumps eg. Odium telling Dalinar that he wants to make him a space faring conqueror. I enjoyed the fact that Kaladin has more time compared to OB, even though I'd admit the pacing was slow in the middle portion of the book (still enjoyed it though). I think in contrast with the cosmere info dumps, the continual strengthening of his bond with Syl and the way Syl is becoming more human-like has been quite organic so far. This coupled with fact that there's a lot of setup for Kaladin having a long lifespan in the cosmere (cognitive shadow) makes me excited for the possibility that they could eventually be some sort of power couple in the greater cosmere.

Personally, I love hyping myself up. I find the expectation fun. Sure disappointment sucks, but afterwards its also enjoyable to discuss critically what was enjoyable and what wasn't. Journey before destination.

Lopen alone in S-tier.

I think there was no mention of him this chapter because he's a bit more of major character in Kaladin's life compared to Sigzil and Skar so a conversation with him would be too important to handle "off screen". My guess is that Teft will be promoted to a position above Sigzil and Skar. I've always seen Moash, Rock and Teft as the "Big 3" Bridge 4 members in Kaladin's life and Teft is really the only one remaining in a sense.

Kaladin not speaking to Teft was a noticeable omission to me and I assume its because there will be separate conversation between Teft and Kaladin in a later chapter that covers Kaladin's change in role. Given Sigzil and Skar received promotions to cover Kaladin's duties, I'm guessing that Teft will be asked to do the same.

I, like others, love @DimChatz's theory, just thought I would share some personal thoughts relating to the theory. Firstly, if a divorce scenario was to occur (not sure if it even exists in Alethi culture) I think it would have to be Adolin that instigates because he see that Shallan prefers Kaladin and is selfless enough to sacrifice his own happiness for that of Shallan's. I just don't see a compelling scenario where Shallan can't stand Adolin to the point where she seeks divorce; my impression is that divorce is not really seen as an option in Alethi culture so I can see Shalln sticking it out despite been unsatisfied deep down. On the other hand it works for me from a narrative sense if Adolin is the party more to drastically break societal norms and seek divorce. He ends up alone but at least he comes out of the situation looking cool. EDIT: I can also imagine the Veil aspect of Shallan not letting anything get in the way, so that's another angle. That said the idea of navigating through a groundbreaking divorce in the storyline doesn't sound compelling to me (although BS could probably make it work). It hurts to comprehend but I think BS could write a break up of Shallan/Adolin through tragic circumstances with a lot of impact despite it mirroring the Gavilar/Navani relationship and I think this is the more likely scenario.

It seems to me like you're disagreeing with the implied semantics of the my usage of the words "anchor" and "main", but if anything your insight on a prime personality more or less backs up the essence of my stated opinion. Basically repeating myself, but Shallan was/is in danger of losing her Shallan personality and whether its a symptom or the cause of her increasingly erratic fragmentation I think it's important that that personality is supported (by Adolin) notwithstanding arbitrary arguments about whether one personality is more important than another, which I admittedly imply. Anyway I'm completely unlearned on the subject so I can only go off my feelings after reading the book. I really do appreciate the insight you've brought on the matter. I regret my wording, but I definitely don't think Kaladin is insensitive; he's too sensitive for Shallan if anything. I elaborated on my opinion in a later post but essentially I think Adolin is better equipped than Kaladin in a relatioship with Shallan at this stage.

I agree with you, Kaladin has empathy in spades and I definitely didn't mean to imply he was lacking in that area. When I describe Kaladin as a hammer I guess I mean he tends to directly confront a problem with all his energy. I just don'i imagine him giving Shallan much space if he were realise the extent of her mental issues/how much she hates herself. I can easily see a situation where he ends up blaming himself for her problems, which in turns makes Shallan feel bad about herself, and the result being some sort of negative spiral of mental issues.

Yep, I've also chosen to interpret Shallan's words literally as well. That said, I wouldn't call that Shallan persona an illusion as it implies it's fake, which I disagree with. My opinion is that that persona is actually her anchor persona that she has to somehow consolidate her other personas into. I think the more she represses the Shallan personality (which she does because she hates herself) the more erratic her personality shifts become. Hence, why I think Adolin is the right partner for her as he helps her anchor the Shallan personality as a starting point to her journey of integration. I think a gentle hand of support and acceptance is what Adolin will provide. He can be there to whisper sweet nothings into Shallan's ear so that she fill self worth. On the other hand, I don't think Kaladin would have delicacy or patience to be a good help to Shallan. When Kaladin sees a problem he tends to want it fixed instantly and can tend to take a figurative hammer to the situation.

@the_archduke I expect and hope that Shallan and Adolin will be happy together. What I will maintain is that Shallan and Kaladin have/had an attraction to one another and I don't think OB resolved how this attraction could disappear from book 4 onwards. My hope is that the attraction will just be a minor undercurrent going forwards with Kaladin and Shallan maturing their separate ways, only for it to resurface later on.

@PhineasGage I'm totally identifying with you right now. I know I could save a lot of emotional energy and accept the relationship statuses at face value and intially that was what I was ready to do at the end of OB. But nope I find myself back on the Shalladin ship. It's mainly because the facts that have been presented as foreshadowing of a continuation of the Shalladin ship have been so convincing to me. I do find myself seeing the beauty in Shallan and Kaladin ending up together after experiencing of a journey of significant relationships with other people. After all, I will maintain that the two of them aren't ready for one another in their current states. So given that Adolin is Shallan's "significant relationship", the question is who is Kaladin's? And I'm really starting to like the idea of Jasnah being that person, age difference aside. They barely know another at the moment, but we do know that what Kaladin is attracted to; a high-functioning, resilient version of Shallan that she hasn't developed into yet. In my mind Jasnah actually fits this bill and the fact that Shallan often tries to emulate Jasnah reinforces my assertion I think. The reveal that Jasnah has a compassionate and merciful side tells me they could be compatible on an emotional level as well. HOnestly, I really want an ultimate Radiant couple! Jasnah and Kaladin can be that couple; the two of them possess the most will and drive out of all the Urithiru crew, they're both relentless in their passion to "save the world".

@kari-no-sugata I kinda get what you mean when you say that interactions between Shallan and Kaladin weren't overtly romantic but only if we're talking about the physical attraction type romantic. I felt the chasm scene between Shallan and Kaladin was about an attraction on a deeper emotional level whereby they each recognised the depth of another's character. From then on I would say its pretty clear that they are both physically attracted to one another, which we get from Shallan's inner monolgues and Kaldin's interactions with Syl. Regarding emotional connection, I really hope we get another scene with Shallan and Kaladin like that because I think they both see in one another attributes that would make them a stronger person without recongising that its actually their weakness as well. What i mean is, on one hand we see that Kaladin views in Shallan an ability to do what needs to be done without letting traumatic experiences impede her ability to function. We already see that Kaladin's emotions can cause him to operate on subdued level or even completely freeze up. However he obviously doesn't recognise the fact that she achieves this by over compartmentalizing to the point she's splitting her personalities/completely suppressing her feelings. On the other hand we have Shallan attracted to Kaladin's passion and strength of emotion and I think its because she wishes she would be able to function without suppressing her feelings. I think she recognises that Kaladin's passion is what drives him towards all his noble actions without knowing that the same strength of emotion causes him to second guess himself. It seemed like we were going to get a heart to heart in Shadesmar when Kaladin approached Shallan for a conversation; Kaladin was hinting at his depression and Shallan could have let Kaladin know that she functions via unhealthy compartmentalization. And maybe that could have led them the conclusion that a maybe a balance between their two mental states is what they want, but alas Shallan was not ready and we may never get a connection like we had in the chasms.

One thing that OB really delivered for me was the fact that we got to see a lot more of Kaladin through the viewpoint of other characters, something that I wanted more of in WoR . By WoR he had already demonstrated extraordinary acts of heroism and leadership and yet when he showed up in other characters POVs it always seemed strange to me that it was hardly acknowledged. We get a lot of "Kaladin Acknowledgement" in OB and it really did stir my heart as Kaladin fan. I did however, also feel a twinge of disappointment when it be came clear that he was going take a more backseat role in OB, but I agree that it also seemed to me that they were saving his progression for later books. Him swearing another oath and saving the day would have been too much of a good thing 3 books in a row, so when he finally does swear his 4th oath its going to be that much sweeter for the wait.

Hmm, interesting thoughts. I interpreted Sapphire as representing Kholin blue, Elkohar mentions that Kholinar is attached to the Windrunner Order somehow.

From memory, the last scene where Shallan expresses any attraction to Kaladin is the scene where essentially tells Adolin that she's decided on him. I think most people are going to take Shallan on her word that her attraction to Kaladin is merely aesthetic. After this we find out that Shallan and Adolin have a date set for marriage and I don't remember Shallan having any significant thoughts about Kaladin in her subsequent POV. That said, you guys are really making me come around to the idea that the love triangle might not be concluded. It really is strange that we went from inner dialogues of Kaladin and Shallan seeming to "get" each other after chasm scene in WoR to the latter part of OB where it's heavily implied that Shallan was only superficially attracted to Kaladin and Kaladin kinda didn't understand Shallan after all. It does feel like a waste. What scares me though is imagining how BS is suppose to pull off a continuation of the love triangle after faking a conclusion in OB. It'll take masterful writing and a lot of bravery to make it work given how contentious it is having a love triangle in the first place.

Wow, having just finished the book, reading this thread has been cathartic as many of you have helped me crystallize my own thoughts on the love triangle. Like others have expressed, I was also left deeply unsatisfied with the conclusion of the love triangle at the end of the OB, which is a testament to Sanderson's ability to create characters that I'm inordinately invested in. Now, although I feel that the conclusion of the love triangle was sudden and I was hoping for more development, I do hope the love triangle has really ended. Mainly because, although I'm less than satisfied with how we got there, I think Shallan is better off with Adolin. I just think that Kaladin and Shallan don't fit together. In my mind Kaladin is simply operating on a different level to Shallan. His thoughts are so altruistic and he asks himself philosophical and theological questions that Shallan, even if she wanted to, probably can't concern herself about because she's dealing with her serious psychological issues. Shallan clearly needs someone willing to dedicate themselves to supporting her through her issues and Kaladin stretches himself too thin to be that person. That said, I was previously a Shallan x Kaladin shipper just because I really like the idea of a Radiant power couple. It would provide us with a much different dynamic to our other main couple of Dalinar and Navani whereby one member tends to funcation mainly as an emotional support and tends to unquestionably abide by the directives of the more "important" member. The Shallan and Adolin couple is shaping up to be much the same in my mind; Shallan clearly decides on Adolin because he can emotionally support her and Adolin sees himself as the less important member of the couple. I imagined a Kaladin and Shallan power couple acting more as equals and the relationship being an exploration of conflicting ideas and compromise (and cool scenes where the couple has each others' backs on the battlefield). With Shallan taken, hopefully Kaladin can find an nice Radiant life partner, or even just a normal life partner...it would be really sad if my favorite character ends up alone .

That part where Syl mentions how long she thought about her dress intrigued me as well. I think she was about to say something very interesting before she was distracted. My guess; she was about to innocently embarrass Kaladin by saying something along the lines of, "I spent positively hours thinking of just how to replicate the look of that red haired girl you can't stop looking at"

Yeah, I'm reluctant to give Renarin a hard time for acting weird. I think his behavior is understandable in the light of the fact that he can see a dark future and is freaking out because he's not sure what to do. Heck, I use to freak out when I could see my dark future when exam time was approaching at the end of each semester.

You make valid points but I think you're projecting based upon unconfirmed assumptions. Do we really know if Laral has grown into an arrogant lighteyes? From the little we've read about her in chapter 7 it seemed to me that she had earned the respect of her household. At a stretch, one could assume that she had gained that respect by demonstrating a willingness to protect the people of hearthstone from a position of authority, thus aligning herself to Kaladin's ideals. Sure she was haughty to Kaladin upon their reunion but he had suddenly appeared out of nowhere, punched her husband and proceeded to take control of her household. And I like to think she was overcompensating after realizing her spurned childhood sweetheart has now returned as dreamy, super-hot warrior dude, inwardly her heart was racing . Okay, I admit I have a petty desire to see more payoff from Laral realizing that Kaladin has now grown into a better man than she could have ever imagined. In order for this to happen we will need more interaction between Kaladin and Laral, which could easily happen if a situation arises where Kaladin is escorting the people of Hearthstone to safety. Kaladin might have to depend on Laral's familiarity with inner-workings of the Hearthstone populace and Laral may witness Kaladin's inspirational leadership firsthand. This was where my head was at when I first proposed Laral become a squire. The members of Bridge 4 all have varying backgrounds but were common in their acceptance of Kaladin as their leader and they all seem to have ended up as squires. Not that I necessarily want to see the pairing of Kaladin and Laral. Rather, Kaladin's "ma boi" and I want to see him have the attention of multiple ladies (candidates being Shallan, Syl, Lift, Laral, Jasnah!?... Eshonai!?!?!). The irony would be that Kaladin has exactly the personality to not realize such an embarrassment of riches in feminine affection.

I wonder if Kaladin will pick up some more squires besides the members of bridge 4? I think it would be interesting if a female character (eg. Laral) became a windrunner member.

Words cannot express how appreciative I am for having 3 Kaladin chapters in a row. I was expecting to have to wait weeks for the resolution to the end of chapter 6!