Nef

I find it interesting that the Radiant was a Skybreaker rather than a Windrunner. It was partly a scouting mission so one might expect that a Windrunner would have been the obvious choice.

Given what we find out in Sunlit Man, makes me wonder about the Windrunner order in the future.

The major difference between Taln's death in the prologue of WoK and the death of Jezrien in OB is that Jezrien's soul was trapped in gem of the special dagger, this could explain why the Heralds could feel the death of Jezrien and not Taln.

If Chanarach's soul was also trapped (according to the theory of her soul being in the box), it could explain why "StormFather" could feel her death.

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Besides, the Words that Gavilar "almost got right" with the so-called Stormfather was "Give it to me, now"

Maybe "give it to me" now, spoken with intent, is as close as Gavilar got to the words, because the focus on "now" is (at a stretch) vaguely similar to focusing on the journey rather than destination. Definitely a longshot, but the "SF" did say its close yet far.

55 minutes ago, robardin said:

Why suppose he has a “Shadow” separate from the Splintered part of him that attached to the Stormfather? Even granting that possibility, are the words and actions - lying to Gavilar, disguising himself as another, etc., - are those the actions of Honor? But we’ve seen Cultivation is extremely canny, crafty, and subtle in manipulation…

Agreed it's not what you'd expect of Honor, but we know that Tanavast was not himself in his dying days. Maybe this a CS of that version of Tanavast, not strictly dispalying "Honor" attributes.

I think the Storm father changed when the Herald died.

For the whole prologue he was actively working/scheming to stop Desolations, then once the herald died he was like, let whatever is going to happen happen. My guess is before the Herald died , whatever part of the Stormfather is a cognitive shadow Tanavast/Honor had more agency, but this side retreated and let the force of nature side have more agency.

Based upon part 1, I expected Leshwi to feature more. There was that chapter where she was claiming first right to duel Kaladin over the Pursuer, which I thought was foreshadowing a bigger role in the occupation of Uirithru than she ended up having.

He gave two reasons, he also said that it was because Kaladin is extra-aligned with Honor's intent.

Regarding Honor not encouraging healthy relationship with the power later in his existence; has this been mentioned in the books?

And yes, there were two explanations given for why Kaladin was conscious during the occupation. 1) Kaladin is extra-aligned to Honor's intent and 2) he was close to swearing the 4th ideal. So basically point 1) confirms that Kaladin has some special sauce, I'm hoping that book 5 gives us a "why" he has special sauce.

2 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

Spren have always had some capability in manipulating objects in the physical realm. Syl was able to carry blackbane leaves really early on, and Patter could pick locks.

Agreed. My point was that turning the pages might be more physical effort than carrying the blackbane and she might not have been previously been able to turn the pages. That said, I think the point of the scene was definitely more to point out how she can now read, further demonstrating her "humanlike" development.

At the end of the book, Syl is able to smell Kaladin. That stood out to me. As if she was manifesting a physical form through some sort of progression.

I just think that smell is something that's really of the physical realm, so its something that Syl will start to sense more strongly as she manifests in the physical realm. Also, turning pages of the medical book, that seemed like something a bit extra to what Syl was previously able to do. I think there's a subtle progression of Syl being more able to physically influence the world on her own accord i.e. lifting things as a spren rather than as a shard implement.

No disagreement here, Odium more or less mentions that he failed to Dalinar.

I think Kaladin swearing the 4th oath was a really big step in his management of his depression/anxiety. It means he's not going see peoples' deaths as a failure.

Also his bond with Syl, it has strengthened so that they're more able to use each other as support. Its almost turning into a healthy marriage, with good communication/sharing of feelings.

Odium's pathway to "converting" Kaladin was through his depression. With what we saw in RoW, I would be surprised if that path ever opens again. Sure Kaladin will always have his ups and downs (he mentions as much), but not to the extent to be exploited by Odium.

On 11/19/2020 at 9:44 PM, dgreene196 said:

My thinking on this was that I believed it referenced Moash's injury.  His strong Connection to Odium and his possession of Jezrien's Honorblade at least made him a strong possibility as Odium's Champion (with some sort of Odium-gifted upgrade, at least).

A key factor in Kaladin maybe not directly connecting to Odium in that scene was that we don't have any hint that his bond with Syl was disrupted.   But, since we get that scene from an external perspective we don't really know.  It certainly seems that, briefly, he received a significant upgrade in terms of his physical speed.  And ripping an enemies head off with a Reverse Lashing isn't really Kaladin's MO.

I agree with others, Odium was looking at Kaladin as his next champion. At the very least he was converting Kaladin to his side. This quote, which I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is, almost states it:

Quote

“He wants me, as he wanted Moash,” Kaladin said. “If he keeps pushing, he’ll have me. So I have to go.”

I'm also thinking that the fifth ideal could be related the the fourth ideal.

Similar to how the 2nd and 3rd ideal are both affirmative statements to protecting. the Fourth and Fifth ideal might both be statements towards not protecting.

It quite devastating to think about, but the fifth ideal might be along the lines of self-sacrifice in order to protect. This is something that Kaladin has always done, but I think it now has particular meaning given that he has started to actually learn to love himself. There is honor in sacrifice. A parallel would be how the US military awards the Medal of Honor.

Its clear we all sit somewhere on a spectrum; some of us find more enjoyment in characterisation/character interaction and others lean towards world-building/lore etc. The Stormlight books also fit on the spectrum. For TWoK and WoR, being the first books, there was more character work as the characters had to be fleshed out by necessity.

With the characters established, the pendulum has swung more towards world building and lore.

Some of the character stuff is clearly stated rather than shown eg. We know Kaladin and Jasnah don't get along, but we've only had a short interaction between the two in OB, other than that we get a few sentences throughout RoW stating the fact. On the other hand we had a more space dedicated to fabrials, callouts to the greater cosmere etc compared to previous entries in the series.

That's said, we're still getting good character work, for example chapter 12 spent time establishing the Kaladin-Adolin-Shallan friendship.

Personally, I also prefer a balance more towards characterisation (more chapters like chapter 12) but I can understand how RoW is some peoples' favourite entry in the series. In fact, even though I don't read other series in the cosmere, I've found myself researching on coppermind because, give i'm invested in the characters, I also care about the world they live in.

I immediately thought: "likely cool scene where listeners save the day, entering the battle with chasmfiends".

The Stormfather does say something along of the lines of Honor loving humans and sacrificing himself for their sake. At face value, that statement doesn't really fit with Honor wishing for endless cycle of warfare.

There have been various warrior cultures that have a strong honor system, so I understand the theory. That said, soldiers also value honor (at least in an army with a good culture). The distinction between a soldier and a warrior being the former fights to live/protect, the latter lives to fight. Soldiers wish for the end of conflict, warriors don't.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

The idea that Kaladin's primary arc in SA5 may be to provide mental health care to Ishar sounds terrible.  I really hope that this does not turn out to be the case.

I doubt this will turn out to be the main focus of Kaladin's arc in book 5, it will almost certainly evolve into something larger in scope. With Kaladin going with Szeth, their two arcs will be related and placing Kaladin in contact with Ishar who has been there from the  "beginning" as well as the Shin (who also seem to know a lot) is perfect to finally reveal questions that have been around since book 1.

Overall enjoyed the book. Was better than OB for me, but not up to TWoK and WoR.

Definitely agree that the cosmere info dumps are often too convenient. I'm often wiling to give a pass when an ally is passing info to an ally e.g. when Zahel was speaking to Kaladin, but i don't find it believable when an adversary info dumps eg. Odium telling Dalinar that he wants to make him a space faring conqueror.

I enjoyed the fact that Kaladin has more time compared to OB, even though I'd admit the pacing was slow in the middle portion of the book (still enjoyed it though). I think in contrast with the cosmere info dumps, the continual strengthening of his bond with Syl and the way Syl is becoming more human-like has been quite organic so far. This coupled with fact that there's a lot of setup for Kaladin having a long lifespan in the cosmere (cognitive shadow) makes me excited for the possibility that they could eventually be some sort of power couple in the greater cosmere.

Personally, I love hyping myself up. I find the expectation fun. Sure disappointment sucks, but afterwards its also enjoyable to discuss critically what was enjoyable and what wasn't. Journey before destination.

10 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Where is Lopen? I have not seen any mention of lopen !?

Lopen alone in S-tier.

On 10/14/2020 at 3:23 PM, robardin said:

Nah, we've seen Teft twice already in RoW - he was in the fight with the Fused in Chapter 5 (when the Heavenly Ones did the recon of the flying barge), and then again in Chapter 9 when he told Kaladin he needed to go congratulate the latest Windrunner to swear the Third Ideal and to discuss the fact that Moash was still around. (And to delicately refer to the fact that Renarin found Kaladin "frozen" again.)

I guess this could be one of Teft's "good days" if the bad ones have gotten worse or more numerous, but as far as we know, he's still on normal active duty in important missions, and acting in a "sergeant type role" with respect to Kaladin on a relatively everyday basis.

I think there was no mention of him this chapter because he's a bit more of major character in Kaladin's life compared to Sigzil and Skar so a conversation with him would be too important to handle "off screen". My guess is that Teft will be promoted to a position above Sigzil and Skar. I've always seen Moash, Rock and Teft as the "Big 3" Bridge 4 members in Kaladin's life and Teft is really the only one remaining in a sense.

Kaladin not speaking to Teft was a noticeable omission to me and I assume its because there will be separate conversation between Teft and Kaladin in a later chapter that covers Kaladin's change in role. Given Sigzil and Skar received promotions to cover Kaladin's duties, I'm guessing that Teft will be asked to do the same.

I, like others, love @DimChatz's theory, just thought I would share some personal thoughts relating to the theory.

Firstly, if a divorce scenario was to occur (not sure if it even exists in Alethi culture) I think it would have to be Adolin that instigates because he see that Shallan prefers Kaladin and is selfless enough to sacrifice his own happiness for that of Shallan's. I just don't see a compelling scenario where Shallan can't stand Adolin to the point where she seeks divorce; my impression is that divorce is not really seen as an option in Alethi culture so I can see Shalln sticking it out despite been unsatisfied deep down. On the other hand it works for me from a narrative sense if Adolin is the party more to drastically break societal norms and seek divorce. He ends up alone but at least he comes out of the situation looking cool. EDIT: I can also imagine the Veil aspect of Shallan not letting anything get in the way, so that's another angle.

That said the idea of navigating through a groundbreaking divorce in the storyline doesn't sound compelling to me (although BS could probably make it work). It hurts to comprehend but I think BS could write a break up of Shallan/Adolin through tragic circumstances with a lot of impact despite it mirroring the Gavilar/Navani relationship and I think this is the more likely scenario.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Having now spent many hours looking though my textbooks and online resources (as a med student) I must say I disagree. The fundamental pount of DID is that there is  not an anchor personality per se. There is a "prime" which is the personality that identifies as the original person, but to suggest they are the "main" is false. We are each all of our personalities - including the bits we pretend we don't have

It seems to me like you're disagreeing with the implied semantics of the my usage of the words "anchor" and "main", but if anything your insight on a prime personality more or less backs up the essence of my stated opinion. Basically repeating myself, but Shallan was/is in danger of losing her Shallan personality and whether its a symptom or the cause of her increasingly erratic fragmentation I think it's important that that personality is supported (by Adolin) notwithstanding arbitrary arguments about whether one personality is more important than another, which I admittedly imply.

Anyway I'm completely unlearned on the subject so I can only go off my feelings after reading the book. I really do appreciate the insight you've brought on the matter.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I very much disagree. Please look at the scene in part 2 (Rock PoV chapter 37) where Kaladin is trying to help Hobber draw Stormlight. Rock's assessment of Kaladin shows how that the men of Bridge 4 see how Kaladin and it includes "an astonishing tenderness in this man". No-one knows Kaladin better than Bridge 4.

I regret my wording, but I definitely don't think Kaladin is insensitive; he's too sensitive for Shallan if anything. I elaborated on my opinion in a later post but essentially I think Adolin is better equipped than Kaladin in a relatioship with Shallan at this stage.

3 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that Kaladin doesn't have the patience/empathy to deal with Shallan's issues Regardless of romantic connection. 

We have ample proof in both WoK and WoR of both patience and empathy and a discerning ability to help other people. Bridge 4 is perhaps the largest sample size. Through patience and determination he pulled them back from dispair. Just the act of instituting a daily meal shared together is one example of nudging them in the right direction rather than forcing cohesion. Just because we normally see him as character in motion and in midst of awesome choreography doesn't mean he is the hammer whose every problem is a nail. He is a fairly self aware person who is not afraid of conflict even when that conflict is internal. (That doesn't mean he solves it - just that he isnt afraid of confronting it) 

I agree with you, Kaladin has empathy in spades and I definitely didn't mean to imply he was lacking in that area. When I describe Kaladin as a hammer I guess I mean he tends to directly confront a problem with all his energy. I just don'i imagine him giving Shallan much space if he were realise the extent of her mental issues/how much she hates herself. I can easily see a situation where he ends up blaming himself for her problems, which in turns makes Shallan feel bad about herself, and the result being some sort of negative spiral of mental issues.