Tortellini

Hey guys, this one may be longer. This builds on several things that are already being discussed and I'll refer to those threads in here, but it actually combines a few ideas so it ended up not fitting into any of those alone... This begins with Kaladin_Stormblessed (who according to Brandon is a very nice person that gives out excellent cookies ) interviewing Brandon and getting a reply about entities living mostly on the cognitive realm and are shadowed on the physical realm. There's a thread that speculates mostly that these are spren. I ended up asking Brandon about this at the signing in Manchester, since I had the notion that this sounded somewhat like spren, but much more like seons. My reasoning: Most spren are non-reasoning, and do not seem intelligent. Even Syl doesn't really think, she *knows*, and feels a lot. At the same time, seons are the epitomy of reasonably, and not emotional at all (e.g. they don't even mind being stuck in a box for ages). So, I thought the hint Brandon gave was about seons, but still, it seemed like there could be something there about a connection to spren. Hence my question if seons and spren are basically the same thing, but with seons being primarily cognitive entities and spren being primarily spiritual entities. I did not get a definite yes from him, so this is speculation, but I thought his reaction indicated that I was definitely close to something, so I will just roll with this... This leads me to actually quite a few branches of thought that branch into various areas of cosmere theory: 1. What we saw in Shadesmar are shadows of both spren and humans Since humans are primarily physical beings, they should have shadow presences in both other realms. Since Shadesmar is the cognitive realm, there should be shadow presences of humans there, but in addition, since spren are primarily spiritual, they should also have a shadow in Shadesmar. It is my belief that the black spheres are the cognitive shadows of spren inhabiting objects or existing otherwise, based on the "discussion" Shallan had with what she calls the spirit of the goblet she soulcast. Here, she actually had a reasonable transaction with a spren, possibly because in Shadesmar she can better access it, getting the spren to "think". Since spren are not very cognitive, their cognitive shadow is pretty lame and dull. The flames seen in Shadesmar are then the cognitive shadows of humans. This is based on the idea that if entities exist in all three planes but on different degrees, then humans should have a pretty impressive cognitive shadow since they show more cognitive sides in the physical world than spren. The flames stand out, they are rare compared to the spheres of objects, and they sort of fit. 2. I know why you should not go to Shadesmar on Sel If seons are primarily cognitive, with shadows on the physical side, then their "evil cousins" the skaze should be the same. That means that both are likely to be more capable and powerful in Shadesmar than humans, just as humans are more skilled at doing stuff in the physical realm. So on Sel, Shadesmar is full of the primary aspect of both seons and evil skaze, much more poweful and scary than any human in Shadesmar, and presumably, the skaze will be able to rip you into pieces if you give them a chance to get you on their home turf. So there you go, don't go to Shadesmar on Sel, ever. Nice, huh? (if Hoid and the 17th shard figured out how to avoid the skaze, or made deals to protect them, then that might explain how they can travel to Sel) 3. Seons may profit from or even need to be linked to a human The ownership and passing on of seons is not much discussed in Elantris, but it seems that seons always have a human they are attached to. The effects of the Shaod show that if something is wrong with their human, the seons are affected, too. Therefore, something similar to the Nahel bond of sprens and humans may exist for seons as well. Syl draws energy and new skills and powers from the bond with Kaladin - she develops better cognitive skills, and possibly more physical skills as well. A bond between two entities may therefore help both sides gain new capabilities, especially in realms they are only shadows in. Maybe the seons also draw something from their humans - maybe they need a human "owner" to have a physical presence? And maybe they give their humans capabilities we haven't discovered yet? Something to speculate on for sure. 4a. Spren are splinters of honor This is an either/or speculation - either 4a is on to something, or 4b. If you follow the idea that seons are splinters of Aona's shard, then since spren are basically very similar, they should be splinters of honor. This would confirm that honor is shattered - and give us something to expect in future worlds as an indicator whether a shard is splintered or not: Entities existing primarily in the non-physical realms abound. Note that apparently Endowment splintered her shard somewhat, but on purpose and not completely, so such creations can also be made on purpose. Which brings us to the alternative, 4b. 4b. Seons and spren are creations, just like humans We know that the people of Scadrial were definitely created by Ruin and Preservation. From various interviews, there seems to be the indication that people on all the planets we saw were created by shards. If we see humans as shard-created entities inhabiting primarily the physical realm, then seons and spren could be an example of creations in other realms. Why would they be created? Who knows? Not a lot going for it, especially since Brandon once said that there were no seons before Odium visited Sel. Still, they could be a purposeful creation of Aona to defend against Odium (or bonus 4c. they could still be splinters, but created on purpose to prevent Odium from seizing her shard for himself. Very fishy though). In general, my money would be on 4a if you made me choose. I am sure there are more implications to consider going from these points, but it's late here and other people on this board are even deeper in the cosmere theory, so I'd love to get their input on this as well.

Hey everyone, since I started the thread, and it seemed to go a bit stale, I decided to make this my question to Brandon at the signing in Manchester. I've written up his reply in the post about that signing. So it seems that outposts are not quite as easy as I at least would have believed them to be, but that cooperation between the highprinces would definitely allow them to build easily defensible, large outposts (or series of outposts) in the plains. And with more cooperation, they could have won the war long ago. As for the bridges, it seems we don't understand soulcasting well enough to speculate here. Apparently you do need wooden bridges first, which then can be soulcast into stone. These then would not be stable, since a stone bridge constructed like a wooden bridge would crack and fall unless stabilized, which would leave an opening for the Parshendi to destroy it after all. So in the end, Dalinar seems to be on the right track, and missing innovation is not quite the solution I speculated it could be.

Hey everyone, I attended the Manchester signing on Nov 23rd, here's my report. I've been travelling and Manchester was one stop (I arranged the timing to be there for the signing ) but I haven't really had access to a computer till now. Some interesting stuff here. He read from an unpublished work he's writing for an anthology of GRRM tentatively titled "Dangerous Women". It was something he worked on for the trip, and it was quite funny and very promising. No spoilers from me on this one, all I will say is that it doesn't seem cosmere-related and that the White Fox is one dangerous dude... Looking forward to reading that in full! Then he answered a lot of questions, on what it is to be a writer, how the whole Wheel of Time deal went (including a hilarious description of the day Harriet called him) and so on. Nothing really spoilery or cosmere-related here, but a great hour of fun for all. Also, a guy called Jordan was trolled in the worst way via Brandon himself. He called out through the whole room "Is there a guy called X here?" and when that guy replied, Brandon just shouted "Your friend Adam wants you to know that you just lost the game." Half the room nearly died from geek overdose Then the signing came and Brandon answered questions for people while signing their books. At first, my friend and I were stuck at the very end of the queue, but then we figured we'd just sit near the signing and listen in until the queue was gone. Brandon was incredibly nice and friendly the whole time, it was quite amazing. And some info came up that's quite interesting: Jasnah: Someone asked if it were hard to write an atheist character for a devout christian. Brandon said he read a lot of atheist message boards for inspiration. Also, it sounded like he'd had the character in his head for a while, but hadn't found the right book to put it in - e.g. he said it would make no sense to put an atheist in a world where gods walk around (i.e. Warbreaker). Taravangian: This is a big one and I hadn't heard any of this before. A girl asked what was up with Taravangian, since it seemed a rough break between the tottering old man and the scheeming mastermind that Szeth meets at the end. The answer is quite surprising. Brandon said that Taravangian used the Old Magic, and that he wakes up each day with a different IQ. Sometimes he's a genius, sometimes he's an idiot. So what he does is he writes up math puzzles for himself in the evening, and if he cannot get a certain score in the morning the guards have orders to just take care of him and keep him away from important decisions for that day. That way he keeps his effect (personal speculation, it could be his curse, but also his boon if e.g. he asked for intelligence and only got it part-time) under control. There was more, but I can't really remember anything major. Finally, I came up and got to ask my questions. Since I started the thread about outposts and stone bridges, I felt like getting some input there. Brandon told me that single highprinces could not erect outposts because due to the superior mobility of the Parshendi - they would overwhelm any small outpost quickly. Soulcasting stone bridges is also not plausible. Apparently, they would need to first get the wooden bridge out there, then soulcast it and then, since the stone is heavier than the wood, they would have to reinforce it, e.g. with ropes. These could then be cut by the Parshendi, so it would not help at all. Dalinar with his mobile bridges is on a better track in his opinion. He did say however that several highprinces working together could easily establish outposts in the Plains. He said the competitive nature of the Alethi was doing them a huge disservice in the war and that if they would work together, they could have taken the Plains long ago. My next question was a random idea I had based on the answer about entities living primarily in the cognitive realm given here. I asked (stupidly, you'll see why in a second): "Could it be that spren and seons are basically very similar things?". He smiled, thought about how to answer that for a second and then said... "Yes, it *could* be." I very much got the impression that I was correct though, but I gave him the perfect opening to appreciate the question without answering it at all. Stupid me . I explained that I had the idea that seons exist primarily as cognitive entities with smaller presences in the physical world, while spren are primarily spiritual, also with smaller presences in the physical world. He just smiled for a second, and I said I'd take that as a possible yes and let him get back to signing books for the awesome Waterstone's in Manchester. I'm writing up my thoughts on that in this post. The evening also included Brandon kicking chull at Magic, which was quite spectacular to see. I have never seen anyone play 3 Hypnotic Specters and then lose so definitely... All in all, a great evening and some new ideas to dissect

Hmmm, while thinking about this I realized there's a way that Jasnah can be right, but still wrong - what if the Parshmen are really what's left of the last voidbringers, but they're not actually where Voidbringers come from? What if people are turned into Voidbringers during desolations somehow (temptation, magic, whatever) and thereby transform into Voidbringers? After the desolation, they are left as broken remains, and harmless. Since everyone believes the desolations are over, there's no reason to kill them all - it's like the zombie apocalypse but suddenly the zombies go peaceful. The Parshmen are different because they have retained part of what it means to be human somehow - resisting temptation, being healed, whatever. Way out there with the speculation, but I sort of like the idea of Parshmen being changed humans, not a different unrelated species.

I see it as an image inspired by the novel, not actually a scene from it. It captures a lot of the feel of the Shattered Plains, that's why I like it.

These are both correct.

My copy has shipped - expected delivery in 11-23 business days Stupid Amazon in Europe is only selling the British version, with one of those lame almost-white covers. Only way to get the US version is to ship it from the US... On the other hand, I'll probably get the British one too when I go to the signing, since the US won't be there in time... Still, first world problems, eh?

Good points, but I would argue that even if the war is not the highprinces' main interest any more, innovating should be in their interest. They are after all competing for the gemhearts, to the point where they often race each other for the right to get the heart and possibly fight the battle against the Parshendi. Better infrastructure and defendable outposts would make that a lot easier and would allow a highprince to capture more gemhearts, beating the others in the competition they do care about - they even have a scoreboard for that list.

I definitely agree on social constraints, but the question is, are the highprinces aware of the possibilities we discuss here and have consciously ruled them out - due to social factors such as taboos, political pressure or effects on their "war" they wouldn't want to risk - or are they simply not thinking of these options in the first place? Simply put, they don't seem to be very research-focused. We do know that Navani is a great engineer, but despite the progress that fabrial technology is making, you don't see any of the men thinking about technological improvements much - even Dalinar, who is actively trying to innovate. Even with their neighboring kingdom - the only one with enough shards to be a threat to Alethkar - developing the half-shards, something that is a game-changer in shard-centered warfare, the Alethi still don't seem that concerned with new technology. Historically, there have been societies where innovation was very discouraged, and these were often stunted technologically after a while. Possibly, the Alethi society works this way, so that even smart people are not trained in thinking in new ways. That would be my guess - they could actually implement these new ideas and be much more successful with them.

So, I just reread the passage, and an important clue is actually coming a page later, on 851. Dalinar is talking to Navani to find further proof whether his vision is real or not. He says: I think I saw the aftermath of one (a desolation). I... I may have seen corpses of Voidbringers. Could that give us more proof? So in this moment, Dalinar was specifically searching for a way to connect the image of the Voidbringers he saw (Thunderclasts) to anything he'd seen in real life. If they had looked like a chasmfiend, he would surely have brought it up, either right then or when Jasnah is sending over the sketch. He doesn't though, ever. Furthermore, since he describes his vision (off-page) to Navani, she should have a good idea what the Thunderclasts look like as well. She never makes the connection either. Personally, I never saw the descriptions as similar anyway, but this shows that even to Dalinar and Navani, Chasmfiends and Thunderclasts don't look anything near alike. And on the pupating thing - I'm not buying that either. Remember, there used to be other greatshells in Aimia that were hunted to extinction, and some aquatic greatshells still exist in the sea (they're mentioned in the "eyes of red and blue" story). So Chasmfiends are not that unique, and if greatshells hatched into Voidbringers, you'd be seeing some actual Voidbringers... My opinion, anyway. Speculate what you want, of course

Speaking of Shallan - in one of Kaladin's few less gloomy moments (in a chasm a few chapters before spear training begins) he makes a (bad) pun - something about thoughtful v. stomach-full... The others note this and he explains that his mother constantly did them and he liked it. Could be a hint that he's being set up to like Shallan as well.

Well, there's 2 ways of seeing this. One is that they only have a special way of recovering Szeth's blade. The other, way crazier option is that they actually know how to disable any shardbearer. That would mean the Shin could have kicked the whole continent's chull the whole time but chose not to. Rather unlikely, but given the way they feel about violence and warriors, it could, just possibly, be true...

Szeth does say it himself once too - he is not allowed to give up the blade and the Stone Shamans will recover it once he is dead. That makes me wonder: how exactly will they recover it? Anyone could take it if Szeth dies, so there should be a high risk of losing the blade that way. Makes me wonder if his blade is not special somehow after all... ?

That's a great idea, but where did the Thunderclast come from - Szeth was truthless for many years by the time Taln arrives and no one else ever seems to have seen one since. So that actually leaves a few interesting ideas (both purely speculative): - Szeth killed a hibernating/nascent/... Thunderclast, so he found one that was not active. - Szeth killing the first awakening Thunderclast actually somehow delayed the whole Desolation by several years. Which would be really funny in a sad kind of way - he would be punished this whole time because he saved the world. One thing - shouldn't the remains of the Thunderclast tell people there was something weird about that stone? Although that can be explained, maybe he reduced it to rubble...

Yes, "Brightness" seems to be the standard opposite to Brightlord. It's used pretty regularly. As for the original question - it also depends very much on who's speaking - or thinking for that matter. Most times Dalinar is talked about, it's in viewpoints of people very close to him, or during his own viewpoint when speaking to someone, and those are often his equals or relatives, so they would use mostly first names. The one thing is Sadeas calling him Dalinar, but he calls him Sadeas, so that is a little off. Maybe Sadeas doesn't like his first name... or Dalinar is a bit more formal, which would fit him.

The Alethi must have them, the plate at least. Shardplate is incredibly heavy, so stealing it is not a one-man thing. Wearing it and running away would not work either since the plate was quite damaged...

I don't think this is really an issue. First of all, the existing barracks and castles are already soulcast, the book confirms that. Second, they actually soulcast the contents of the latrine into smoke every few months, to get rid of them. They do this even though they already have a pretty good sewage system in the chasms - just channel the latrine to the chasm and problem solved after each highstorm... So, given the context, soulcasting can't be that holy... Actually, plateaus are bought and sold between highprinces, and you are not allowed to use another's plateau without permission. I am unsure what allows a highprince to actually lay claim to a plateau, since it must stop somewhere (no competition otherwise), but probably a permanent bridge would allow a highprince to stake a claim...

Hey all, great to see some discussion! Kurkistan: It's true, I sort of assumed that gemhearts are mixed somehow, but things would be completely different if Chasmfiends give only Emeralds (and since that's the gem for food, it could fit). What speaks for that is that no one ever mentions the type of gem when they harvest one - if you could win a Diamond or an Emerald, that would make a huge difference on the profitability of the battle, so it should be discussed. On the other hand, Dalinar does not mention Emeralds when worrying about inflation. I am paraphrasing a little, but he is worrying "What will happen if our scarcest resource, the gemstones, become commonplace?", and it's not Emeralds specifically... And you are absolutely right, the gemstones consumed within the Warcamps are irrelevant. The merchants are taking gems out of the camps though. However, I neglected a different effect - the Highprinces are still collecting taxes probably. These taxes, which are an additional flow of gems from Alethkar to the camps, may balance out what the merchants bring back so the net effect could still be neutral. So you are right, neither inflation or deflation is indicated for sure at the moment. This depends on the actual consumption of gems in the camps as well (see below) As for soulcasting structures - there is indeed a lot of uncertainty about this, I am guessing a lot too! A few indicators can be gathered from the map of Sadeas's camp and the view of the warcamps. Sadeas's camp shows us that the barracks (which were described as soulcast) are rectangular, so it's not just domes. The overview shows several castle-type buildings, including Elhokar's castle, which is described as soulcast the first time Dalinar enters. This tells us that a) Tall, vertical stone buildings can survive Highstorms, the do not necessarily have to be streamlined. It is possible to soulcast large, complex structures. However, the effort could have been very significant, it does not tell us if fast souldcasting of a field fort is feasible. c) Castles do have some strategic worth, even in a war where Shardblades are around - I am actually not so sure about this, as any Shardbearer who isn't occupied by an opposing one could hack through most walls unless they are thicker than the length of the blade. Moats however would be very efficient... Also, it would take some time to remove the rocks from the wall, and even Shardplate must be vulnerable to having tons of rocks, or even burning oil, dropped on top of it while the Shardbearer is slashing at the wall. Sunblesser: Hehe, thanks for the compliment I agree that probably the Alethi are just not thinking about it the right way yet. I would hope that either Jasnah, who is prone to pointing out stupidity anywhere, or Shallan with her creativity will provide these ideas to the men, who may be stuck in traditional thinking about warfare... But the competition between the Highprinces might actually be helpful for this idea - competition should drive innovation. We can see that with Sadeas's new bridges, which - horrible as they are - give him an edge, and others seem to pick up on the idea. And yes, the bridges would still need to be protected, but it would up the risk a lot for the Parshendi if they would have to bring a soulcaster or Shardbearer (who can also make short work of a stone bridge) to the Alethi side of the Plains. Especially if a forward keep is in the plateaus, then all the bridges behind it are very risky, since you might be cut off by Shardbearers that were based there. Basically, the current terrain vastly benefits the Parshendi, but with sufficient soulcasters and ample gems, the Alethi have the means to shift the balance significantly. Logain: You're right - it's actually true that large gemstones are not always consumed in soulcasting - that is probably adding to the value of the gemhearts! An Emerald gemheart is worth even more than its parts in Spheres, since it can be used better for repetetive soulcasting. I wonder how this works exactly, do they last indefinitely if you're careful? And if a stone cracks, can the pieces still be recycled as smaller stones, e.g. in Broams? Ah, we know so little about soulcasting...

So, not to de-rail the whole theory, but why cognitive? There are physical, cognitive and spiritual sides to all things, right? Why aren't the spren expressions of the spirit of things - Shallan even says she spoke with the spirit of the goblet. So great theory, wrong realm maybe?

I read the thread and felt so smart - and then he sums it up I agree that there may well be only 1 Highstorm and that it goes round and round - that would explain the rough predictability. It picks up speed again over the ocean or the other side of the world... And I agree, it is likely the physical representation of a shard - or possibly a mix of 2 (like the pools in Mistborn or Elantris). The crem and the life-giving properties of Highstorm waters indicate that Cultivation is in there, too. What if the Highstorm is not actually based on the shard of Honor, but on Cultivation? That would mean that stormlight is actually from Cultivation, and maybe both Surge- and Voidbinders can use it (compare with the black sphere of Gavilar). In any case, I also believe it's not a traditional hurricane but a roughly linear wall. Also - one thing that has not been discussed is the Purelake. The Purelake completely disappears during Highstorms - why? As a very large pool of water, full of life, it is suspicious already I withdraws into the ground and comes back afterwards, but that is completely unnatural.

This is pretty much the only place where Szeth lashes to "air", he usually lashes only to nearby walls or objects. The "flight" of the Radiants however shows that you must be able to lash to far off things, since they "fly" in the open quite a lot. Are they actually lashing themselves to distant stars? Maybe...

Hi all, I'm a refugee from TWG... This has been on my mind for a while, but it needed some thinking. Basically, the way the Alethi are managing the war is not optimal by far. Also, there should be some consequences from gathering so many gemhearts: 1. Economics Dalinar is actually concerned about inflation at one point (p.409), but after 6 years, the massive influx of new gems should have a drastic effect on the economy in Alethkar and probably all of Roshar. We need to separate what happens in the warcamps with what is carried away from the camps into the world by the many merchants trading with the camps. First of all, different types of gemstones have different worths, and these are sort of fixed - e.g. Emerald ~ 2 Sapphire ~ 50x Diamond. It is unclear where these differences in value come from, but likely causes are rarity of the gem and usefulness in soulcasting. Emerald is worth a lot because it can soulcast food. Now, the gemhearts coming from the Chasmfiends are not defined in type to my knowledge, so they could be equally distributed, following the general ratity of the gems in Roshar, or be only of specific types. In any case, the armies need large amounts of Emeralds for soulcasting food and also wood, the two materials that are specifally mentioned as being soulcast a lot. So all the other gemstones should depreciate in value world-wide (more so in Alethkar due to distances), since they are being traded for goods from the merchants. That should lead to serious inflation for most types of gems, and to a relative increase in the value of Emeralds, since few of those would make it out of the warcamps. We haven't seen the effects of this yet, but I am wondering - should this not be noticable in Karbranth already? Maybe Shallan is not concerned with economics, and we haven't had much insight. 2. Siege Warfare on the plains Completely different, but I was really wondering - we know the armies cannot move towards the center of the Plains due to exposure to highstorms. But at the same time they are neglecting the potential power of their soulcasters completely: - There are permanent, wooden bridges between chasms, but they get burned by the Parshendi occasionally. This is in fact the reason the wooden bridges stop after a while - they are too difficult to maintain (is stated somewhere in the book). But why are these bridges not soulcast into stone, or metal? This would be an incredibly powerful way of protecting the permanent bridges. This would drastically increase the range of the armies, since all types of temporary bridges cost a lot of time and have other issues. - Once we are soulcasting on the plateaus - let's build a small castle! With the expanded reach of stone bridges, getting an army out to protect builders while they prepare to soulcast a fortification is easy. This should be possible even without stone bridges, in fact. The biggest advantage of the Parshendi is their ability to jump the chasms, so their maneuverability is vastly better than the Alethis'. However, this means they have literally no way of getting any siege equipment to the plateaus - any fortification high enough not to be jumped and smooth enough not to be climbed would allow a few troops to hold of a much stronger force. Of course, protection against the storms would require something more streamlined than an Earth-type castle, but that should still be possible. Such a castle can be used to maintain further bridges within the Plains and to cut off retreat paths for Parshendi forces. In fact, once the area is secured, more bridges can connect plateaus for more room, and some barracks for further troops. Suddenly, you have a fortified camp within the plains. (Side note - all structures are vulnerable to Shardblades, so a Shardbearer is needed for defense. There are enough among the Alethi for this to work, though.) - If it works once, let's do it again - a string of such fortifications can work its way towards the center of the Plains with very little the Parshendi can do about it. In fact, depending on the speed of soulcasting large structures, the Tower could be in permanently human hands within a day, and that would be just the start. In a week or two, you could be at the very center of the Plains, in range to strike decisive blows at the Parshendi. Is there a problem with this approach that I haven't considered? Or have the Alethi just not come up with this solution? They are very offensive-focused, so this turtle-style approach is not really the first thing they would think of maybe. Still, this would be just what Dalinar needs to end the war once and for all... Final remark: If a chull can pull a siege bridge, it can pull a ballista, or a catapult. Siege engines were historically not very useful against infantry, because usually infantry could be ordered into loose formations. However, on the plateaus the size of the plateau often seems to demand close formations - the Alethi at least bring as many soldiers as can fit. Catapults with burning oil ammo could wreak havoc on Parshendi occupied with cutting out a gemheart. There are lots of things the Alethi could be working on. I haven't seen much discussion about this topic, but maybe I missed it. What do you guys think?

Absolutely, I'd love to win this