laxrulz777

Might the Shin have a better understanding of the Oathpact maybe? Afterall, they kept the swords. It's not a stretch to say that they realized which Herald stayed behind. Taln is the Herald associated with Stone. Maybe they worship stone as a way to show reverence / respect for Taln?

Does anyone have a timeline (even an approximation) that goes back further? I think the idea that Eilemelie put forward is intriguing. That there's an event 1000 days from the date of the prophecy (271st day of 1173) that is important (maybe something that makes the Everstorm inevitable?). Could it be Kaladin's arrival at the camp? Or something going on with Dalinar? Seems like an interesting possibility...

You could be right. "Really Hard" in this case might mean 1) spiking yourself with the blood of a Nalthis native 2) meeting the criteria for a Returned 3) dying on Nalthis Also, there was this WoB Q: Were the heralds born on Roshar? A: RAFO Interpreting RAFO answers is (obviously) tricky but it could support the idea that there's something else there.

Back to the original question I think anyone with the proper pathways in their sDNA (Spirit Web) can do Allomancy/Ferruchemy (Hemallurgy sort of "acts upon you" so literally anyone can do it although, thus far, we've generally seen it acted upon allomancers so there may be a little bit more to it than that). We know that the metals (aside from Atium and Lerisium) are not Shardic. They're ordinary metals. We even have this: Q: If I were to try to Soulcast pewter, the way Shallan does with the blood in The Way of Kings, would it come out that an Allomancer be able to use it? A: You could create Allomantically viable metals, yes. Q: But is it automatic? A: I would say that the pure metals are, but the alloys are not. So far so good. The world is filled with ambient Investiture waiting to be tapped in to. The metals are a catalytic element used to jumpstart (and, I think, multiply) the investiture used and create a manifested ability of some sort. Each metal is a catalyst for a different effect but the power is coming from either the ambient Investiture or from within the individual (it's not entirely clear). I think, (and this is where we get away from the canon a bit) that any individual with the right sDNA attunement could perform minutely small amounts of Allomancy (this isn't strictly required... you could interpret the metals as the spark plug that starts the combustion as well). Now, enter the mists. I don't think it's a backup system (personally, I think it's related to the Essences from Stormlight as we discussed in the other thread but you dont' have to buy into that for this to work). The mists bypass the need for the metals. In that "catalyst" paradigm, they simply provide a raw source of energy to tap into such that the need for a multiplicative catalyzing agent isn't necessary. In the "spark plug" paradigm, they are a either a source of power that's easier to "combust" (i.e. no need for a spark plug) or they effectively raise the "heat" so high that they also serve as a spark plug (a universal one for all powers). Personally, I prefer the catalyzing paradigm (where everyone can do minutely small amounts of allomancy). I think it's more consistent with what we see (flaring and "metal reserves" based on the size of the metal) where the "spark plug" paradigm runs into some issues with that. i think it's also more consistent if you want to believe that Harmony didn't monkey with the system and Bendalloy was always there just undiscovered. Under the catalyzing agent paradigm, what Vin senses as her "metal reserves" is what's in her stomach. She is filled with the mist and doesn't notice another 5-21 additional reserves because she still didn't have those. She just knew, instinctually (allomancy is an "instinctual" magic) that she could utilize her powers. I THINK all of the above is internally consistent. As to AonDor. I think that in AonDor's magic system, the forms explicitly drive the powers. It's not like the metals where there's an almost chemistry like "catalyst" reaction happening. It's more like the shapes interact with the various realms in a very specific way. I kind of assumed that the various forms that were made were "cutting a hole" in the realms to let power through and that the shape determined what happened. Finally, we come to Compounding. We still don't know much about it. But I think it works like this. Specific metals are ready to accept certain traits (Gold getting Health) for example. We also know that it provides the catalyst (or spark) to see your past self. I think these are related in some ways. This actually makes sense because Gold doesn't JUST store "health"... it also stores "youth". I suspect we'd find that if Sazed's (pre-Harmony) gold stores were 100% gone and he lost an arm. If he later stored "health" in a new gold receptacle then tapped it, he couldn't get the arm back. So the "seeing past self" and the "health/youth" being stored are more closely related. So when a Gold/Gold Twinborn stores his health and then burns it, he taps the metal mind for the youth but gets a heaping helping of allomantic affect mixed in. The result is that the youth restored is even more than what was put in. This works REALLY well for certain metals (Gold, Tin, Electrum)... it's rougher with some of the other ones (Bronze? how do Allomantic pulses and memories even interact?). Granted, this piece is a bit fuzzy but, I suspect, the whole idea of Compounding is a bit fuzzy (both to us, the characters and, I suspect, even Sanderson himself). There's an alternative possibility and that's that you can compound in "either direction". Using allomancy on a gold metal mind gives more youth than you put into it. Maybe you could also use an Iron metal mind to Pull the crap out of something OR to make yourself super strong... maybe compounding lets you do both as an option?

I meant that we don't know this "canonically" yet. WoB keeps using "steal" and "take" but we might be limited by the English language on this one. If we think of your Spirit Web like Intellectual Property, "Steal" and "Take" dont necessarily mean that you're depriving the original person of the use of it. Simply that you're "ripping them off" as it were. I wouldn't at all be suprised if it behaves the way we're all imagining it does (taking the power away from one person and giving a slightly weaker version of it to another) but it's not 100% certain (even the WoB has a fuzzy kind of canon to it). You're right. I misread this Q: Do all the humans have innate Investiture? A: I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet. [Drabs] do not have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar. and this Q: Does Nightblood rip souls out of bodies, by chance? A: Nightblood consumes Investiture, including the spark of life. and sort of conflated them in my mind. The Spark of life (or possibly more properly the Spark of Sentience?) is a separate gift from the Shards. Breath is a different thing. Good call.

I suspect that awakening a Hemallurgic spike would challenge our current top contender for "hardest thing to manipulate" which is Nightblood. IIRC, Hemallurgic spikes don't "steal" things quite as much as they can rewrite" your sDNA. To my knowledge, we don't have any living Hemallurgic victims to know if the ability is truly "stolen" or what (it might work this way... we just don't know). So spiking Kaladin would give you his ability to surgebind (unclear if you'd be bound by the oaths as well?) but it wouldn't give you the stormlight he was currently holding. Things get "weirder" on Nalthis where the Breath you hold is a collection of the "Sparks of Life" from multiple people. It's not clear if you spiked Vasher would you get the ability to accumulate breaths or would you simply get most of Vasher's breaths?

Actually, that's not true... in fact, we have this that explicitly indicates Returned from other than Nalthis is possible but "hard" Q. Did he [Vasher] actually come from Nalthis and not Roshar? A. I’m not going to actually answer that one. Well I can answer that: yes he does come from Nalthis. It’s pretty obvious that the way that the Breath’s working, the reason he moved is because it’s easier to get Stormlight than Breaths, and Stormlight can fuel being a Returned like him. And so yes, he was born on Nalthis. Becoming Returned without being born on Nalthis would be really hard. I think it's possible that the Heralds are from Nalthis. I think it's also possible (probably more likely) that Cultivation saw what Endowment did with Heralds and created 10 Returned on Roshar. Given that this is "Hard" it might even be the thing that weakened him to where Odium could destroy him...

So at this point, my faith in Brandon as a writer (and, ESPECIALLY, as a world/magic creator) is that this isn't a mistake nor is it happenstance and the fact that it seems SOOOOO wrong means that it's ESPECIALLY important. Note: AAA classifies the "Ancient scholars also placed the ten orders of KR on this list [referring to 'imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences'], alongside the Heralds themselves, who each had a classical association with one of the numbers and Essences." To AAA, this is all about the Essences. She doesn't talk about the body parts or the soulcasting properties or even the Surges. She talks about the Essences. I'm beginning to think that the Heralds are the key. They have a purposeful connection to the Essences and their connections to the Surges are something else. We simply don't know enough about the Essences at this point but I think they are the really critical thing here. One possibility is that they represent the 10 cosmere wide "types" of things that you find in the spiritual realm. Maybe a Forger, for example, can't cross that threshold no matter how plausible it might be to do it. Everything is hardwired into one of those "types". That's a wild-chull guess (I just reread Emperor's Soul so... ) I hadn't seen the other schematic (problem with reading e-books i guess) but my observations (most of which probably have been noticed by others). The "external" ring (the ones representative of either the Heralds or the KR Chapters) are much less "line" oriented and more "shape" oriented (they have more "body" to them). They're also more "rounded" and less "angular" then the Surgebinding chart. There appears to be no artistic link to this outer ring (they're just flat different... even if you were to make an "angular" version of one or a "filled out" version of the other, you wouldn't get those shapes The inner ring (the "surges" ring) are inverted (I'm sure the Alethi would say "corrupted") in symmetry. They have radial symmetry and generally have either the right twisted across the horizontal axis to get that result. Who knows if it's significant or not but a couple violate this "right twisted" generality. Transformation and Tension flip the left side vertically. Adhesion not only flips the left side but ALSO rotates each half along the vertical axis (kind of turning the whole thing inside out). Truthwatchers (Paliah / Pulp) and Bondsmith (Ishar / Sinew) are in the middle (representing the "Double Eye of the Almight, an eye with two pupils representing the creation of plants and creatures") They share identical construction with each other. As I look closely at it, one thing that strikes me as odd is that the four essences/heralds on the corners (Stonewards/Tanat/Talus, Windrunners/Jes/Zephyr, Edgedancers/Vedeledev/Lucentia, Lightweavers/Shalash/Blood) share one more connection 4 vs 3) with the other surges/essences. The surgebinding one is surrounded by the images of the 10 Heralds. This might imply that the other ring is not a "Herald" ring but is an Essence ring instead (or possibly a Knight Radiant chapter ring?) There might be SOME similarity in the Bridge 4 tattoo and the bottom left glyph (the one in the Lightweaver slot). That's by no means a slam dunk. I, of course, have no idea what this means but it's pretty interesting. On a purely side note, I don't think this is Voidbinding. The coloring and the woman around the edge don't speak to that. The color transition from yellow/red to purple makes me think it's something that straddles the Physical and Spiritual (there's a similar, though much more muted, color transition on the surgebinding chart). This seems like something maybe describing the Old Magic or possibly some Fabrial oriented system based on the Gem in the middle.

That's an interesting thought and I hadn't considered it. So there's either a 403, 1171 event or a 273, 1173 event. I'll need to do some research tonight.

I figured someone had already worked out the dates. I was more interested in the 1000 days clause because it doesn't seem to make sense. Thanks for the time line link.

So the very first Prophecy of Moelach says "The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather... We are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes." 1171, 1st, week of Palah, month of Shash I don't believe we have an exact date for the Everstorm but we know from the first Epigraph of WoR that it's between Tanateses, 1173 and Jeseses, 1174. The timelines aren't clearly explained and they change form slightly over the course of the prophecies. First they concatenate the month and week (1171, 4th, Tanates = Tanat + Jes) and then they conflate all three (Tanateses = Tanat + Jes + Jes). For a variety of reasons (of which I can go into if anyone is curious) I believe the order is month/week/day (Tanateses is the 9th month, 1st week, 1st day). And, if that's the case, Vevishes and Ishashan provie that there's 10 months and 10 weeks (which, combined with the 5 days gets you a 500 day year). But that presents a problem. The prophecy above is about 130-230 days "off". The prophecy occurred on the 271st day of 1171 but the Everstorm occurred sometime between the 401st day of 1173 and the the 1st day of 1174. (For a variety of reasons, I think it happened on the last day of 1173 but we don't actually have confirmation of that). That means that either A: something about my interpretation of the dates is wrong. I don't think this is the case but I'm willing to be educated if someone has thoughts B: the prophecy is sort of a "double" prophecy in which case the recorded vision is actually of something 130-230 days after the recording date and THAT even is projecting the "1000 day" timeline. The latter seems convoluted but appears the more likely so I'm curious if anyone has candidates for what event actually occurred EXACTLY 1000 days prior to the Everstorm? Kaladin's betrayal by Amaram seems to fit contextually (love of man... frigid) but that occurred 1-1.5 years before the Everstorm. Likewise, Gavilar's assassination is too far back so it doesn't work either. Any suggestions on what the actual prophecied event is?

Do you think this holds even in the context of shards NEEDING a holder and potentially developing sentience on their own without one? That could make Hoid (if he was a Shard) a distinctly separate thing with separate rules and a separate lexicon to decribe them. I'd love to hear the audio on this one and try to read Brandon's expression and delivery. It would probably tell a lot. I could definitely see the following being true. Hoid is the 17th Shard (bear with me hear). He's the leftover bit of Adonalsium formed after the Shattering. His personality is the personality of Adonalsium stripped of all the deific components... Conceivably he may not even have natural power... just a "personality" Shard. The "core" personality is it were. He sat as an unclaimed Shard for a long time (conceivably, he might even be the hiding Shard though I suspect not). Eventually, he developed sentience (in the same way that the Spren are developing sentience thanks to Honor's shattering... but, in this case, Hoid developed sentience as a single Shard). IF all that were true (and it's a huge IF I concede) then it would be consistent with the quote regarding Hoid not "holding" a Shard.

Thanks. I'm always tentative when getting involved in a new community online. The "rules" and "ettiquette" are rarely as obvious as people think they should be. You're definitely right that it could be nothing. But I've gotten pretty good (I think) at reading between the lines on Brandon's stuff and this feels like something important. I definitely think there's more to the Essences then we've been looking at but I'm quite stumped on what it could be. Maybe we'll learn more when we discover the "Old Magic" (hopefully in book 3 which can't get here soon enough).

I understand the narrative backdrop for the Ars Arcanum. My point was that, Sanderson doesn't want people to HAVE to get involved in the Cosmere stuff to enjoy the books. Functionally, those sections are very much a glossary. It's absolutely how a first time reader would read them (it's what my brother thought they were for a long time) and it's the literary function they serve. Given that, I suspect that Brandon would not create a falsehood in there without having a strong literary reason for it. He wouldn't just have Khriss be "wrong" just for the sake of being wrong. If she is wrong about something, it's going to be for a very good reason. So where Moogle says we should take her with a "big grain of salt", I think we should be VERY intrigued by things like, "My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric then the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something else entirely different." That sentence (which is the one that made me write this post in the first place) is definitely Brandon trying to tell us something. It's our job to figure out which part is important Note: not trying to argue with the long term vets here either (I realize I'm new)...

What I'm tentatively working on is a heirarchy. Terms are needed for each "step" but it's similar to what you've laid out. Speaking from a purely "literary" standpoint, I doubt that the AAA is flat "wrong" on things. Those are introduced to us as "glossaries" and "indexes". I feel like when the author speaks through the AAA, he's telling us things. I'd be shocked if the narrative part of the Ars Arcanum aren't some of the most heavily edited and carefully crafted sections of the books. So while the AAA COULD be wrong, IF she is then I suspect there's a good reason for it. In this case, I'd be pretty surprised if we found that there was only Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Old Magic and nothing else with no explanation. I would NOT be surprised if we found that there were those three and that, long ago, Adonalsium did something special to Roshar that shortcircuited the formation of the fourth magic. In both cases, the AAA would be wrong but in the first, it would be just a straight factual error while in the other it would lead to a deeper understanding of the realmatic theory (i.e. the important part here might not be WHAT is the "fourth system" but rather WHY does the AAA even think there is?). So the idea that the Essences are linked to the surgest has some validity (Sinew being Tension and Adhesion makes some sense as well if I'm being fair) but it REALLY seems to fall apart when you realize that Lucentia isn't related to Illumination (we obviously don't know what Lucentia is but SURELY it has something to do with Light?). On the other hand, Shallan's experience with Blood sure lines up (Blood is related to Shash / Lightweavers). The fact that Blood (and to a lesser degree Tallow) don't line up with the Illumination oriented chapters makes me think there's something else going on there. What chart are you referring to in WotK? My chart has all the essences but makes no mention of the Surges it whatsoever.

We actually do know all the surges from process of elimination and the glyphs and diagrams in the book. Skybreakers are Gravitation and Division. Here's the full list: Knight Chapter Surges Windrunners Adhesion, Gravity Skybreakers Gravity, Division Dustbringers Division, Abrasion Edgedancers Abrasion, Progression Truthwatcher Progression, Illumination Lightweavers Illumination, Tranformation Elsecaller Transformation, Transportation Willshapers Transportation, Cohesion Stonewards Cohesion, Tension Bondsmiths Tension, Adhesion

I like this theory. I like it A LOT. It would explain a lot about Hoid and it seems to really "fit" the tone of many of the conversations. One "problem" is with this Q&A Q: Is Hoid any of the Shards of Adonalsium? A: Good question. He does not hold a shard. Brandon rephrased and restated the question which is always a sign that someone is obfuscating. The question was "is he a shard" and the answer was "he does not hold a shard". Those are two VERY different things.

I think there's some merit to this. It gives enough literary license that Brandon can do what he wants while also providing a consistent framework. It does get stressed when you consider things like Hemallurgy and this quote: "On a broader level, is hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?) Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works." Which implies that the worlds themselves have magical systems and the Shards work through them and allow the locals to use them (incidentally, this is how the shardless worlds have powers but those powers are things that Humans can't actively use because they lack investiture from a Shard). This clearly seems to state that the three powers existed PRIOR to the shards. So why would the AAA author believe there has to be a 3rd (or 4th) system? It could have something to do with the Cognitive/Spiritual/Physical realm. Maybe magic always touches all three but the Spren based magic on Roshar seems to be entirely about the Spiritual/Cognitive (this doesn't feel right to me because things like Gravitation seem to clearly be physical... but if you consider that it all comes from a Spren bonding then MAYBE that isn't fully the case??) I think it's time to come up with a more cohesive Realmatic theory on this stuff. I'd like to see us align with AAA (I kind of think Brandon has been coy/obfuscating with some of his quotes... saying things like "There's upwards of 30 magic systems" on Roshar clearly contradicts the most authoritative voice in the books... the AAA). She clearly thinks of them in subsets and that there are four subsets. No one has yet commented on the link to the Essences either. Do you agree that that seems to be her thrust when she speaks of "this paradigm"? Could they be the various ways in which shards manifest? What other type of significance could they have?

There's some logic to this. Particularly if Moogle's Intent Meshing holds water. I dont' think Old Magic = Voidbinding (mostly because the AAA doens't think that and, I think, that we can trust her gut as being correct or at least mostly correct). Two shards on Sel that have produced either 1, 4 or 5 magic systems (depending on how you count them). I'm not sure there's any way you could categorize them as 3. Yeah, didn't realize that the B's would come across that way... glad someone figured it out This doesn't feel "right" to me. I think it's more likely that the inherent abilities of the Radiants are either 1) Abilities unique to the melding of the individual surges or 2) People that already have those abilities are more likely to gravitate to being those types of Radiants.

I was doing some research this weekend and came across this (note, I've shaved out the irrelevant stuff to avoid reproducing giant swaths of the Ars Arcanum). [A chart that shows the following columns: Number, Gemstone, Essence, Body Focus, Soulcasting Properties (note: not Surges), Primary / Secondary Divine Attributes] A brief summary of that chart then the following "Ancient scholars also placed the 10 orders of KR... alongside the Heralds... with one of the... Essences" "I'm not certain yet how the 10 levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric then the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something else entirely different." The author (whom I think most people think is Khriss now) reveals a lot in this very dense section A) Voidbinding and Old Magic are "cousins" (implied but not explicitly stated is that Surgebinding is also a "cousin") They state with certainty that there are 10 "levels" of Voidbindings C) They suspect (but imply that it's not guaranteed) that they'll fit within the same "paradigm" as Surgebinding (note: the only text above refers to the Knights Radiant and the Essences... It makes no reference, at this point in the text, to the surges or that the KR had two surges each and seems to focus heavily on the Essences... capital E). D) The author believes that there is something more "esoteric" than Voidbinding (dictionary definition of esoteric: "intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.") E) The author believes that it COULD be but likely isn't the Old Magic (implying that the Old Magic at least meets the definition of "esoteric" or MIGHT meet that definition... we don't know why the author believes it's not the Old Magic) F) Implies that Realmatic theory would require this "esoteric" magic system but (and this is important) that requirement is not based on a number (so there's nothing REQUIRING four magic systems... that's not what the author says and, in fact, the author leaves open the possibility that there's three). Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Of particular interest, what's the relevance of the Essences (which we've collectively been ignoring). In order they are: Zephyr, Vapor, Spark, Lucentia, Pulp, Blood, Tallow, Foil, Talus, Sinew. "Talus" and Lucentia" on this list are really interesting. In fact, this whole list is pretty weird. These don't strike me as the "fundamental building blocks" of a planet. I'm actually intrigued by this WoB: I wonder if that's a list of the various ways that that Shards can manifest? Also, the implications for the fourth magic system on Roshar are vast. A) What is it and (perhaps more importantly) what makes the author believe that one exists (and why does it have to be "esoteric" and/or why isn't the Old Magic "it").

I think there are 3 ways to interpret this quote. 1) The planet is the sole driver of the shape of the magic and the shard is the power source (i.e. Honor/Cultivation switch places with Harmony and the denizens of the planet don't notice a difference...) 2) The shard drives the powers but the planet drives the way they manifest (i.e. Honor/Cultivation switch with Ruin/Preservation and now the burning of the metals gives surgebinding powers and stormlight gives the allomantic powers) 3) The shard and planet form a unique composite (i.e. Honor/Cultivation switch with Ruin/Preservation and now we get some 100% different looking powers... There's also a fourth possibility (really 3b) and that's that the shards also interact with each other in strange wonderful ways (Odium comes to Scadrial... Allomancy/Hemallury/Feruchemy are gone and replaced by something wholly different like in #3 above). I thought he was coy about this one. Now I need to dig up that WoB. There's a lot we don't know/understand about what Harmony did to the global sDNA of the populace. Prior to his merger of the shards, we didn't have these twinborn mistings. Also (and I haven't read alloy in a long time so I might be wrong about this) my recollection is that there are no "single" mistings (or at least there weren't in the book) and there's also the "fracturing" of feruchemy (all feruchemists in mistborn were "full" feruchemists... we never saw or heard reference to a feruchemist who was limited to one metal). I think Sazed did something (maybe intentionally... maybe unintentionally) to the sDNA of the people that may be significant to this question. To be entirely accurate, he said "both" not "all" but I take your point. I think what he meant is that, theoretically, preservation could have been supercharging Sazed through the mists if he'd chosen. One interesting question this raises, however, is who is fueling Wit's allomancy in stormlight? I think there's intricacies here we A) don't understand and might be self-contradictory. Brandon's created something incredibly intricate and complicated. There's bound to be contradictions (that we'll, in true fan boy fashion, find explanations for But in that quote, Brandon also said, "But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do." Which is why I think he was referring to the direct fueling like he did with Vin (or theoretically could have done with Sazed as I mentioned above). This is actually making me think that Breath/Stormlight aren't directly FROM the shards but maybe are natural and the shards presence give them (more?) power. This was all straight in my head 48 hours ago.... curse you Moogle

As to the mists: it is not clear that it gives access to all the metals. We'd need to see what a Misting can do with it. My suspicion is that a Misting who gained the ability to take in the mist would only be able to power their one metal, because that's what happens with Surgebinding. I think we can safely infer the answer to this. When Vin was forced to swallow the (then unknown) extra metal in book 1, she recognized a new pool of power. However, when she swelled with the mists, she didn't mention anything (that I recall) about sensing 5 other metal types. She doesn't use a time bubble on the Lord Ruler. Now we could chalk this all up to the heat of the battle but, I think, it's a lot more likely that the Mist was only filling up those reserves that she knew how to use. So a Soother, having no idea how to use Pewter, wouldn't be able to just make himself stronger. I think there's also a very real possibility that only Mistborn can even use the mist in this way (and, even then, only a select few). It may be that you have to have the "wide open" Allomantic Spirit Web to even draw in the Mist directly.

I tend to agree with you though the Spren's knowledge of the magic is unlikely to be perfect or free from personal bias so I wouldn't consider authoratative. It's also possible that Honorspren are a spren type that doesn't have any Odium while (for example) Cryptic spren might be have parts of Odium. My point about the magic systems and the shards is that we don't know which of the following are true: 1) Each shard will have magic manifest on a planet they inhabit in a way that is inevitable and inextricably linked to the Shard's intent 2) The combination of planet and shards (or just shards) produces a unique magic system. A planet with Honor and Preservation doesn't get Allomancy and Surgebinding, it gets something completely different and unique. 3) Each shard has a type of magic that is unique to it. If they change planets, that type of magic will follow them. However, planets with multiple shards will affect eachother's magic in interesting, often unforeseen ways. 4) Some secret 4th choice that Brandon is keeping cleverly to himself.

Moogle, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I do think that the Canon and the WoB are a bit muddied and that certain really old WoB probably aren't as valid any more. Brandon has tweaked the story in ways that he never saw coming already. Personally, I think the magic systems grow organically from the ways the shards interact with each other (and POSSIBLY with the planet). I think it's an open question on what magic would show up where if Preservation / Ruin took a 3 century vacation to Roshar while Honor / Cultivation / Odium came to Scadrial. Would they switch magic systems? Would they stay the same? Would they each get something new and different? It's not fully clear. My gut is that the planet is irrelevant and it's the shard (or combination of shards) that develops the way the investitures manifest. As such, I believe you're right that Stormlight can't be converted to Breath. Raw investiture is unique to the shard. I think using foreign investiture to power your own magic is also a skill you'd have to learn (or maybe a rewiring your body would do...). I would liken it to they way your body burns Fat and Carbs for energy. Your body produces energy far, far more efficiently from Carbs then it does from Fat. But you CAN produce energy from Fat. In the Cosmere, this is something that (maybe?) you can even retrain your body to do over time (the way Vash is keeping himself alive with Stormlight). As to the specific case of Scadrial, I think this is what's happening. Brandon has multiple times described the metal as a "catalyst". It's an ingredient that makes the manifesting of the investiture "easier", potentially through the molecular shape of the element/alloy. But your body is still a limiting factor on the "shape" the power takes. When Vin was exposed to the mist, she was able to tap into so much raw Investiture that the need for the catalyst wasn't necessary. To her, this felt like her metal reserves filling up but that's just the way she interpreted the sensation of being suffused with power. I think of it this way, the body takes in investiture in small amounts just by being on the planet. Most people can't actually absorb the raw form (mists) but that doesn't stop them from absorbing little bits here and there from simply living. Some people can channel that investiture into various affects. Some people have a broader aptitude (Mistborn) while some are simply specialized in one type of investiture->power conversion (Mistings). The metal serves as an amplifying catalyst. It, potentially through it's molecular shape, magnifies the affect greatly. We don't have evidence of this, but it wouldn't surprise me if Vin or Kelsier was actually able to manifest powers without any metals at all but it's at such a tiny, minute level (without Mist) that no one notices. Give them enough investiture in the form of Mist and they're so overloaded that they can skip the metal use altogether (or, possibly the Mist is just a far, far better and more universal catalyzing agent then the metal). Now, as to whether she could have manifested Feruchemy? This is an open question but I think "No" for two reasons. 1) She wasn't really wired that way. She'd gotten really good at tapping into the allomantic pathways of her Spirit Web (note, I say Allomantic because she is able to sense new metals when confronted with them... she has a pretty open and adaptable Spirit Web in that way) but had never practiced and/or was completely unable to do Feruchemy. 2) I think it's also possible that Feruchemy is the magic "shared" by Preservation and Ruin. As such, the Preservation Mists alone wouldn't let you power it (nor let you do un-focused Hemallurgy either). I think that, in the abstract, you could perform Selian magic with simply a gaseous supply of Selian Investiture. However, it's entirely possible that you might need to still draw the symbols. The reason is that your knowledge of how to use the powers is critical to how you manifest them. Being given the gas alone doesn't give you knowledge you didn't have. Vin didn't use time slowing on the Lord Ruler because she didn't even know it was a thing. It's possible that the metals-in-your-stomach catalyzing agent is something that you do involuntarily and so, being infused with raw investiture simply makes that easy. Whereas the Selian magic system is much more rigidly defined and based on symbols that are Cognitively known. So if you were exposed to the gas on Sel, you might just feel full of power but still have to draw the symbols to get it out. I like to think of the powers like Athletic Talent (as far as I'm concerned, Michael Jordan's ability to dunk the ball might as well be magic). They're things you can train for and get better at but also dependent on what foods/medicines you put in your body as well as your natural gifts. Now if you're a lineman for an NFL team, you manifest your Athletic Talent as "Strength" primarily. You can take steroids and make yourself stronger and just simply better. BUt if you're a Quarterback, those same steroids will make you stronger but your real Athletic Talent is your throwing accuracy. That's how your ability manifests. So the steroids will have SOME impact. But you'll still have to throw the ball (and throw it accurately) to make use of your talent. That's not quite a perfect analysis but I think it works here. On Compounding, I've never been fully satisfied with the Compounding explanation. It feels like some literary Deis Ex Machina that was used and never explained. I hope there's a broader explanation from Brandon but the above will work for that. Feruchemists put investiture (shaped into a particular type of magic like "strength") into the metal. They're using the metal as a battery. The metal can hold that type of magic because of it's molecular / catalytic characteristics. The Ferrumancer can also pull that magic out. The difference is that a Ferruchemist isn't actually able to use the catalyst like abilities of the metal. So for him, it comes out in a 1:1 ratio. But the Allomancer + Ferruchemist does have the catalytical ability. So he puts in 1 unit of energy but, when he pulls it out, he can use the catalyst of the metal in his body to magnify at a higher ratio. Finally, mechanical allomancy is definitely something he's going to have to explain. I suspect that there will be some sort of "Artificial Spirit Web" or a proxy of that web that will be needed to manifest Investiture in this way. I think that's essentially what's happening with the Fabrials and gemstones in Roshar. The gemstones are natural Stormlight batteries and the Fabrials are carefully and intricately crafted "Spirit Webs / Circuit Boards" that the battery runs the Stormlight through. I suspect that if you tried to power a Fabrial with Breath, you'd find that it either didn't work or it worked differently (maybe even breaking the device).

I'd like to see the question, "If, for example, Odium left Roshar and took up permanent residence on Scadrial, would Surgebinding continue to function in the same way? And would a new type of magic (voidbinding?) pop up on Scadrial?"