Stormlightning

I totally agree with @Ookla the Obtuse's comments, and I think that's why (although it was mostly subconscious at the time) I didn't immediately hate Moash. I definitely agree that Moash was trying to show respect, and love the idea that he was implying a thank you to Kaladin for giving him the freedom to make his own choices--even if those choices were at complete odds with what Kaladin would have him do. I suspect that although Kaladin must have felt the salute as a slap in the face, he will come to recognize that Moash's skewed perspective probably didn't mean it that way. Doesn't mean he has to forgive him at all, but just that he can understand him a bit better and still sympathize rather than wanting to murder him. I think we saw a little bit of what's coming for Moash's arc when the Fused told him (paraphrasing) "You have given your pain to Odium. He will return it when you need it." Followed immediately by "It would be worth it, if only he could forget the look of betrayal in Kaladin's eyes." So 1) that makes it clear to me that he didn't intend the salute as an F U. he obviously still wants a relationship with Kaladin, although by the end of the book he seems to have realized that he's sacrificed that relationship. 2) Like Amaram, he still hurts. Presuming he lives long enough, this could compound until he eventually realizes Odium's not really doing anything for him and he proceeds to have a glorious redeption arc. Or get killed in the middle of it, just for some good ol' thematic justice. Moash still considered himself a member of Bridge Four at the moment he killed Elhokar, but Kaladin's eyes made him start to feel he'd lost it. Then he went and offed Jezrien, officially 'killing' the old Moash. I don't think he still considers himself Bridge Four at this point. But if he ever has a run-in with members of Bridge Four and they're kind enough to say something like "You can still come back and be one of us. Once Bridge Four always Bridge Four," that might really shake him and do the same thing that Evi's I forgive you did for Dalinar.

I've been making a lot of all things TEN that might relate to each other. But it's still a work in progress that I haven't been nearly diligent enough about, since I suspect it may be a bit of a windchase. But it has things like Orders, Highprince of X, devotaries, the ten countries from way back when.

Moash redemption arc. *ducks preemptively*

Understatement of the year! Anyway, for what it counts, I love Jasnah. Not because she's a nice, agreeable person that makes me feel right at home. I agree that she is a bit caught up in her own ingenuity, but as Shallan points out, that's because she's usually right about things. That doesn't make her any more likable from a personality standpoint, but it makes her feel real. Not everyone can be as endlessly humble as Adolin. At least she's not Amaram, who thinks he's all important but is actually dead wrong. I didn't really have a problem with how Jasnah treated Kaladin because that's how I expected her to treat Kaladin. She treated Shallan the same way when she first met her, too. Then there's those awesome little hints we got in OB, that told us she wasn't as heartless as she claimed, but she just does it to protect herself. Whether it was their intention or not, she's used to being hurt by people she loves. That does all kinds of things to your brain.

LOL. But yeah, actually belonging to the order seems a little bit different that just wielding the Honorblade, as we learned between Szeth and Kaladin. The Herald himself, who had division before Skybreakers were even a thing, probably has some good tricks up his sleeve.

Oddly this never occurred to me even though I find myself wondering about Dai-gonarthis all the time (mostly cause I think his name is awesome). I dig the theory, even if I think it's probably not true. I don't think a different Unmade would have relied as heavily on the Thrill's component to Dalinar's fall (I feel like the 9 Unmade are probably really independent of each other? No reason for that other than gut feeling) or would have responded like Odium did when Dalinar said "Why don't you just leave?" (btw that was probably one of my favorite moments in the whole book for sheer green...vine...ness).

I'm on the boat with some others that the girl is Ash, Jezrien's daughter. That the wall was the mountains of Shinovar. That somehow, she was the reason the human's left their given lands and started conquering the listeners. But Hoid's face also appears in the arch design on the first "The Girl Who Looked Up" chapter, when he makes no appearance in that chapter. so you may be onto something.

All very good points, @PhineasGage. 1) I guess I see it like when Wit told Shallan that she can change her personality without changing who she actually is. She got in this weird frame of mind where she thought that in order to act a certain way, she had to go be that person in every way. Ultimately, I think that Veil and Radiant need to stop existing and allow Shallan to be all of them. To use her Veil-like skills while still being Shallan, and changing the way she thinks about things (when pertinent) without becoming Radiant. In the face of that, I think Adolin can still be attracted to Shallan when she's indulging in a Veil moment at the bar. Maybe I have a totally different opinion that the men do on this, but I don't think I have a problem with treating your significant other like a drinking buddy once in a while when you are out drinking. Probably... 2) It doesn't automatically make him good for Shallan, but...well, I think he's good for Shallan. 3) I don't feel like Adolin is letting her hide. He's latching onto her true self and stopping her from switching personas. While Shallan discovers who she really is, that seems important. Toward the end of the book--and all through it, really--she was throwing Shallan out the window in favor of the other two because they have distinctive roles and purposes, and she couldn't find that for her true self. He is really good at buoying her up and telling her she is valued and giving her reasons, because he really does see value in the normal her. Kal does too, but I think he's less good at dispensing his appreciation for others and I can just see him getting into one of his moods and her going into one of her stupors...and they can't pull each other out. Then he lashes out with thoughtless commentary and she avoids it by switching identities...yeah. Bad. If Kal and Shallan were to end up together instead, it would be more important that they figure these things out then get hitched. I think Shallan and Adolin are a bit more of a capable pairing in terms of figuring it out while together. 4) Hey now! He was thoughtful enough to bring her books! I actually wasn't referring to this sort of thing, haha, more to the witty banter. He always came up with something to say in response, even if it was "What...Shallan!" This is where his social competence and humility come in handy. I think other people could be rather intimidated by her sense of humor and just have nothing to say. Yeah, you have a point. She's young and there's no reason not to consider looking around. But I don't think he forced her into it; she was already pretty attached to the idea in my mind. I don't think she was ever seriously contemplating Kaladin, more just infatuated with a certain side of him. I don't think she ever actually thought, "Hey, I could marry that guy." It's kinda like that girl that's happily in a relationship but adores Matt Damon. Not that I'm comparing him in any way to Kal:P

At severe risk of exposing my ignorance because I haven't been following this thread, I'll answer this and the other questions directed at me here as best I can, for what counts as my opinion and nothing more. See the bottom of the post for my brief thoughts on Shallan's character growth. By the end of OB, I think Shallan was in a really tough place. Her dissociated identities were definitely a bad thing, and hopefully she'll take Adolin's incredible faith in her and let it be enough. If there's one thing she hasn't had, it's someone to just love her for who she is. And that's one thing I think everyone needs. Granted, there's probably a long tangent in this thread about how Adolin doesn't know her and whatnot. But I think he knows enough. He knows the person she is now--the real her, at least I think that's what Brandon was trying to make clear at the end of OB. He may not know about her past, but he can recognize when she's being genuinely herself. That's more important than any of her past. Your last few questions is the most difficult, for me. I'm still doing my first reread of OB, and I was pretty out of it by the end of the book in my first read-though. Do I think she's ready for marriage? I would say that if she were my IRL friend, I would be like, ASH'S EYES, NO! This coming from someone who is still single at an age most of my friends are not. I tend to think maturity should come before marriage. That said, it's kind of amazing how many people I know who had to really mature up--and I mean really mature up--in their marriages, and somehow managed to without ruining the thing. That works when you do it together. Mature and grow and discover yourselves individually, but together. The difference between codependency and interdependence. I think Adolin is a really healthy person, mentally(granted we may yet discover things to change that opinion). I think he's a great person to travel that road with her. I, personally, would have wanted them to hold off on the marriage for a while longer still, just to get their feet under them a bit more, but I've also seen plenty of situations where people made it work, so I'll forbear judgement on if it was right or not. No one ever listens to me when I tell them to wait anyway Is she closer to saying her next ideal? Probably not. But reaching your next ideal--particularly when your next ideal is confronting a truth--isn't the only way to grow. I'm not too concerned about if she's closer to her next ideal or not. I think she has room for growth in plenty of directions that will keep her an interesting and viable character, even if she doesn't reach any new oaths soon. I'll throw something really brief (haha) on this here. I was never against Shallan and Kaladin. If Adolin didn't exist, I would have gone with them happily. I think they had some good moments in those chasms, that gave them a bond. There was the slight problem of them coping in completely diametric ways (one won't let go of the past, while the other refuses to acknowledge it) that could have been difficult to reconcile. But with some further time spent together, they probably could have gotten to know each other better to a point where they would have made a fine couple. The thing is, I just didn't want to destroy a good thing, even for the sake of another good thing. Shallan and Adolin were getting along great. From the moment they met, there was attraction. That's not essential, but it's a good thing. Shallan provided a challenge to Adolin's ways of thinking. Also a good thing. He was manly enough not to take offense to a girl who might be able to outsmart him a little. I give him major props for that. If there's one thing I love about Adolin, it's that he's a genuinely talented guy that doesn't let a whole lot go to his head. He lets people poke fun at him, and that's super attractive. And despite what some might say, he is smart enough. In OB, he keeps up. The difference here is time spent. Shallan had spent a lot of time getting to know each other and were still doing well. They don't beat each other down, they complement each other and are there for each other. That made it seem like it would be awfully unfair for her to ditch him because something could potentially exist with someone else. Shaladin probably could have worked. But Shadolin was already working. This is something that comes up all the time in the LDS religion because of the missionary program. Not saying that's where Brandon got it, but it might have been on his mind because he's probably had lots of friends go through it. A girl falls for a guy, he goes off to serve a mission for two years. During that time, she meets another equally great guy, and falls for him. Much to the first guy's dismay, she gets married while he's gone. It's not like the first guy wasn't great, and couldn't have made a great husband...he just wasn't there when she was ready to take the next step. The second guy made a great husband as well. A common consensus on this dilemma is that either one could have worked. But one got her and the other didn't. Sometimes it's not that one is more 'right' than the other. But she got to spend a lot more time with one, one that happened to have a lot of great qualities, just like the other. And in the final conflict in OB, Adolin was able to offer something extremely personal to her. And so she accepted it. I think that's a very justifiable decision. I was actually be extremely proud of her for not waffling. Doing so would have just been a commitment issue when she really hasn't spent that much time thinking about Kaladin. Basically, Shadolin may have just worked out because he was able to spend the most time--and most meaningful time--alone with her. What happened on her adventure with Kaladin to Thaylenah? I would love to know. I spent the early release chapters on Tor thinking "Kaladin might get his heart broken a bit. He's away from her, somewhat involuntarily letting his fondness for her grow. He doesn't have someone else to occupy his interests. But she's in a romantic relationship that is totally cute and it's working. So she would be a fool to throw away a chance that is working for one that might also work." I guess I figured out the message Brandon was trying to send because that's basically how it worked out. Haha, that's totally fine, @Dreamstorm. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I haven't been following your argument, but I didn't see anything unrealistic about the character development for any of these guys. If anything struck me as unrealistic, it was how easily Kaladin let go, but even that worked for me since he really only thought about her a handful of times since the chasms. At risk of going way off topic, I'll say that Shallan's character development (or lack thereof) was strangely touching to me. Too many times authors have fictional characters experience a "come to" moment where they learn something and grow up. They move forward with their new realization and that's admirable. To my personal chagrin, however, this is not usually the case for me. I learn something to help me overcome my faults, I do great for like a day, go the total opposite direction for like a month, then spend the next several years actually learning to make that realization a part of my regular behavior. I also revert to a much less mature version of myself when around certain people from my younger years. I would have totally reacted the way Shallan did to Jasnah, even as I hated myself for doing it.

This is true glory. Thank you for including inside jokes.

Hi. I'm just here to say wow, because this thread is always at the top of the OB list and I clearly underestimated the power of shipping because I've never really had any interest in this thread topic. But then again, I'm on the Shadolin ship and have never spent a moment on the Shaladin ship, and OB went right along with my thoughts on the matter. Your passion for this topic impresses me. Anyway. Carry on.

Ash made it pretty clear that Jezrien wasn't just trapped. Either, he died, all the way, every part of him, or the part of him that was made of Honor's Investiture was removed, and his regular spirit was killed, the investiture taken into the gem for future corrupting. Maybe the special knife separates people from their Investiture. Since Brandon has described Heralds as cognitive shadows, I'm inclined to think that if Honor's Investiture were taken from him and his physical body killed, Jezrien would find himself pulled into the Beyond. That's how he dies. Perhaps the Investiture Jezrien held is what was once called a dawnshard. For some reason yet to be determined, dawnshards are super important and now Odium has one to turn to his own purposes. Yay.

I think you're right on. I think The Girl Who Looked Up was Ash, and that she traveled over the mountains of Shinovar, where they'd settled, and perhaps was the one who brought stormlight (and thus powers) to her people.

I have to say Kal's obsession with protecting everyone, and like absolutely everyone, has always been super powerful to me. Maybe I'm just one who gives up too easily when things look obviously hopeless, because seeing him trying to save everyone without even thinking about how ridiculously impossible it is gives me such hope. And then to have is all coalesce in that moment with Elhokar and Sah and Moash and Beard....... And then to have wonderful what-would-we-do-without-you Syl: "Maybe you don't have to save anyone, Kaladin. Maybe it's time for someone to save you." uuggghhh THE FEELZ Apart from that, Ash and Taln. Just...Ash and Taln.

As a minor-character-love, I was excited about getting more Sigzil. I'm still dying for more of his story. I loved the POVs of Bridge Four in this book. Oh, and Taln. So much storming Taln. I need his book like...NOW.

For those who struggled to love Oathbringer as much, here's where I can understand you: -I was 800 pages in and found myself thinking, "Man, by this point in WoK and WoR, I had at least two awesome, intense moments that I later went back and reread 500 times each (ex: Szeth's 1st assassination attempt on Dalinar and Adolin's 1-v.-4 Shardbearer fight in WoR). I'm surprised I haven't really had any of those yet." -I must regretfully agree with those who feel that Brandon went a little overboard on deleting scenes that would have held that satisfying anticipation-spike. Moments like Shallan and Jasnah reuniting. I've noticed that Brandon pretty consistently makes things happen off-screen if they would be have 'awesome', but not helpful in building the story arc. I appreciate that he avoids these traditionally over-utilized moments, but agree that it was probably overdone and made the first 3/4th of the book a bit of a drudge. It's completely ridiculous and a testament to Brandon's incredible storytelling that I sit here and think, "Man, you should have split this arc into two books. Even though you have so much more coming. Maybe it should be a 20 book series. Somehow in 1200 pages of absolutely critical storyline and world-building and foreshadowing, there wasn't enough room for the things that would have made it the most fulfilling." However, I'm totally content with the movement of The Stormlight Archives as a series and am eager to see what comes next. The points above may have negatively affected the quality of book three, but at least Brandon didn't mess up the worldbuilding/story arc itself. I'd say authors and other mediums that do this (here I am thinking of stories like Kingdom Hearts) cause a lot more serious damage to their story and far more heartbreak to their fans. Why I don't think that Oathbringer was worse, as a whole, than the other two books: -I feel that this book was important for developing a lot of lines that will be critical in the future of the story. Somewhere, Brandon had to fit in all the groundwork for things that are coming. He put in a lot of world-building that will be very important for readers (especially the more casual readers) in the future books. Explaining everything about the Unmade, and about the functionality of Shadesmar, could well have been twice as long as they were and still been brief. I can't fault him for needing to explain these things before we get further into the series. Even if much of the book wasn't as exciting as in the previous two, it all felt very essential to me. -The hype for this book was like...through the roof. And the atmosphere. And the expanding borders of the universe. Wit's commentary on how expectation is so important to how art is received is especially poignant here. I believe that with a few rereads, I will find myself much more satisfied with this book than my initial read though (although don't get me wrong, the avalanche was everything I was hoping for and more). I think once the hype of a new SA book dies down, we will find that this book was awesome in it's own right. In fact, I'm seeing a lot of that appreciation start to bubble up in other threads already as people really digest everything that happened in it. Just take the expectations out of the multiverse. I think that in the future years as we await book four, we will all develop a love for Oathbringer that matches the other two. It became a bit of a catch-all for the stuff that needed to be outlined before we get too much farther. I can see why Brandon has done so much juggling of which character's flashback book to do next. I think he could have done Dalinar or Szeth as the focuses for book two, and book two would still have been utterly incredible. Now he's faced with this difficult situation where the flashback characters are moving into and even past some of their most pivotal moments, and he hasn't had a chance to do their flashbacks yet. Szeth has undergone a ton of transformation since book one, but Brandon still can't fully dive into that development until Szeth's actual book. If this had been Szeth's book, I think we all would have been a lot more satisfied with his arc, but we would have missed so much that was important to Dalinar's arc. It's a trade-off that's becoming tighter and tighter. If you read all that, you're awesome. If not, here's the rundown: The book wasn't as long as it needed to be, unfortunately, to do all the characters justice. But it was still awesome for all it accomplished and will give us plenty to discuss until book four.

It would certainly be interesting if at least one of them is interfering, if only by speaking to Dalinar's mind. It would be hilarious if Frost is actually trying to help, and just not letting Hoid know about it. I'm actually somewhat inclined to believe that's in line with what limited insight we have to his personality. Maybe. My other imagining for the moment is that the voice could be Dysians. We don't know much about them, but I have this vague inkling of them being able to speak to minds (too tired to look right now). They may have an agenda for all that's going on with Roshar right now.

Galladon still had his accent from Elantris, with the words translated. He said things like "understand?" instead of "kolo?". I am pretty sure it's not him.

But...Cob was there. And Brandon doesn't just double up names like that.

This just convinces me that Rial really could be Wayne. Even though the timeline still completely throws me for a loop.

Not so much a typo, but I thought that it was odd on page 778 after Kal kills the Voidbringer on the city wall, it says "Kal stepped up to her, the sleeves of his uniform stained dark with the blood of the Voidbringer he'd killed." I mean, they hit the ground pretty hard, but he killed the thing with Syl, so there shouldn't have really been any blood, right? For the record, I don't think the "axi" thing is a grammatical error. It's more just a unique cosmere term.

So, Chaos just released a spoiler-free review of Oathbringer here. It's spoiler free thanks to some heavy censoring. So much, in fact, that it reminded me of a fun little game I used to play... Okay, so this wasn't actually mad-libbing, because I did put some effort into making it coherent. But I figure we have one week to make a complete mess of find out what he hid in those paragraphs. At the very least, It's made me think about some crazy plot-twists I'd never considered before. I also think it will be hugely entertaining to Peter, so hey, I hope you get some laughs. In the spoiler tags is the redacted sections of the spoiler review, as they appear in the post: Aaaaannnddd......here's my rendition. It's awful because come on, I only had so much to work with and generally tried to keep each 'redacted' to one noun/verb and maybe a pronoun or preposition where two were back to back. Some of this isn't realistic. Some of it is just dumb. And some of it is actually kinda giving me ideas... It starts with us finally seeing SZETH go CONFRONT the STONE SHAMANS. Then it turns out SZETH didn’t KNOW WHERE THEY KEPT the HONORBLADES, but FOUND THEM, and DESTROYED THEM. You get REVENGE and it's immediately time for THE DESOLATION, and it's this epic REUNION right away. Oh, and not only is it KALADIN WORKING WITH SZETH, but just [redacted for swearing] ORODEN is ADORABLE. It turns out NAVANI was the REASON DALINAR was ALLOWED to be BONDSMITH, and for a moment you WEEP(yes that had to be readacted). All in RETROSPECT HER DEATH was so BELIEVABLE(also had to be), and FORESHADOWED. RENARIN makes VOIDBRINGERS ATTACK the RADIANTS. All the while, KALADIN, ESHONAI, and ELHOKAR are in TROUBLE (because of DAI-GONARTHIS) at KHOLINAR, fighting AESUDAN and trying to get TO URITHIRU, but the OATHGATE refuses to WORK. ELHOKAR tries to get PARSHENDI to HELP, but WIT keeps INTERFERING. All the while there's TARAVANGIAN MANIPULATING the SLEEPLESS. Oh also there are THE SKYBREAKERS, because why not, clearly more needed to be happening. But then, THE CHAMPION (the actual chapter title), TURNS OUT TO BE [redacted for swearing] ZAHEL. ADOLIN just [redacted for swearing] DREW SWORD-NIMI, or NIGHTBLOOD. ZAHEL faces DALINAR and MASALA and JASNAH, and it is so [redacted for swearing] GIBBLETISH. KALADIN OPENS THE OATHGATE, reaches URITHIRU, KILLS WIT, FLIES to DALINAR, MASALA, and JASNAH, and they are ELSECALLED into the EVERSTORM and it's so freaking amazingly awesome. You see THE NIGHTWATCHER and NERGAOUL. Oh, and that's just the first half of the avalanche because then [redacted for swearing] DUSTBRINGERS JOIN with ZAHEL and it's just insane. The most intense thing ever. Your turn.

I don't believe it was just a moment, because in Brandon's postscript he mentions that Nale went through some big mindset changes before we jump into book three, and that half the reason he wrote Edgedancer is because he didn't feel it was right for that to happen offscreen. He implied that when we see Nale in Oathbringer, he'll be doing things very differently than he was before.

I'm just rereading Elantris and find myself pretty convinced that Dakhor is more related to Devotion than Dominion. Their fanaticism says it all. Also, this quote on page 37 of the softback: Now, it's been like practically a decade since I last read Elantris, and so maybe that's completely worthless because Jaddeth/Fjordell isn't all that connected to Dakhor. But in my brain right now it is, so hopefully that helps. (For the record, it's also got me wondering if Ambition ever came messing around on Sel...)

The timing on this does seem sticky. Although I also haven't been able to confirm exactly where AoL falls. I've heard Brandon say it's mostly at the same time as WoK, but I've heard that these books take place in the gap between 5 and 6. I get the impression that he's still trying to decide exactly where they fall.