Shlee

Thank you both I am however, quite well aware of both of those things, and have been lurking around several years longer than I've been posting. My point isn't to criticize, just observations. There is stuff missing from both places. It can be difficult to navigate parts of theoryland with all the stuff in there that's repeated interviews, Robert Jordan info, and a variety of other issues. It's definitely workable and much, much, better than nothing. But it's not ideal either. The forum search here can be aggravating, as many can attest to. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have a dedicated area for nothing but cosmere-related WoB, canon information. I also realize that this is in theory what the wiki is supposed to be, but it's difficult to search as well. If Theoryland had a branch that was solely canon information on the cosmere or even just brandon's books and everything actually managed to get uploaded there, that'd be awesome. And I know there are people working on keeping it updated (and very hard too). It's just not ideal in my mind, especially looking long-term, when we're 7 or 8 books into stormlight with another handful of cosmere books and stories scattered around and the amount of info gets even more onerous than it already is. FWIW, I do database management, that's probably why it bugs me so....as much personal pet peeve as anything else.

There's also the letter in WoR So assuming that the letters are current (and given the reference to Hoid as Wit, they should be) as of WoR, it's been "millenia" since a shard was shattered. I don't know how that would translate into Scadrian "years", but it seems unlikely to me that he managed to hop over and shatter Harmony while nobody was looking.

For what it's worth, I'm also pretty positive I've read the WoB that says that Odium has too much invested in the Roshar system to easily withdraw, but I can't find it either I'm starting to think a WoB database should be in the works......

Panda, he can be "active" on a planet without physically being there. (see:Roshar) The WoBs don't contradict at all. Also, regarding WoBs, paraphrased ones essentially mean you are reading someone's recollected interpretation of what he said, so I personally consider them somewhat less reliable than verbatim ones. The original quote was "has he been on" which implies physicality and is a lot more direct than him simply being "active." I do agree that dates are going to become important, and as I've said elsewhere, Theoryland is eventually going to need a separation/overhaul to sort out WoT, or they need to be compiled elsewhere, because the amount of info we're going to wind up with is only going to grow and it's already confusing as heck, especially for more obscure topics. Especially since there are several floating around NOT on Theoryland. I'm not sure about a WoB, but there is an epigraph in WoR that reads:

Didn't mean to start a side debate lol. I should have just searched the books before I opened my mouth. But here's a quote from WoR And having investiture/special spren is a very interesting point about greatshells. I wonder if all animals native to Roshar have gemhearts.... As far as the Parshendi/Szeth, I always wondered how they acquired Szeth. We know at the time of the assassination he'd rather recently been a servant to Jasnah's assassin, so he couldn't have been with the Parshendi long. But we also know that the Parshendi had contact with the Alethi for some time before the treaty, so I'd say it's highly possible that any number of the groups (Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods, Skybreakers) could have made contacts with Parshendi and been in position to "push" events in their direction if need be by recommending an assassin or explaining what a truthless was or any number of things

Oh that's what you were referring to. The first quote I posted is from that exact scene. I'm pretty positive that's because the Cryptics were around Shallan.... after that scene she draws them in a variety of different places and rooms, including one behind Kasbal and several in the middle of a crowd. So, I think they're only relevant to the person "seeing" them. No, but we never see Shallan look in a mirror during this sequence. Also, Shallan's memory-taking skill is unique to her, so I highly doubt that's the only way to see them. That form of cryptic is their cognitive-realm description, Pattern manifests differently in the physical. We have multiple other examples of brief glimpses of the cognitive realm, from Jasnah's first interaction with Ivory to Kaladin's glimpses with Syl, so it's not unlikely that for some reason for Elhokar, it involves mirrors. The whole point of the cognitive realm is that it's subconscious, hence them seeing things in the corners of their eyes and hearing whispers, but nothing direct. A mirror would fit in with that. Physical reality...but not quite We've also never seen Elhokar's private life, so him not showing a spark of creativity at this point is rather irrelevant - we really know next to nothing about him as a person. Also, in Alethi culture, the arts are a feminine pursuit, so he could have a variety of reasons for not ever showing any talent he does possess around other people. Either way, I'm not saying he's on his way to becoming a lightweaver, although I personally find it likely, merely that I'm positive what he's seeing are Cryptics, and I can't think of any other example we've been given of sentient spren watching/interacting with a person except in relation to the bond and the Nightwatcher's boon/curse thing. I also find it interesting that in every Proto-radiant conversation, there are always people saying "but that person doesn't have the qualities to be a Radiant" Keep in mind that Shallan killed both her parents, and let her father destroy himself and her family by not telling the truth. Kal, if anything, has the fewest demons. Dalinar was a man prone to drink who once plotted to murder his own brother and take throne/Navani. The whole idea is that they're people who are choosing to become something better. If anything, the people I dislike most in the story should in theory have greater odds of becoming Radiants if they turn themselves around. That puts Elhokar up on the list, because I'd like to chuck him off that balcony. You're quite welcome I cheat though, I have the ebooks on my laptop and a fantastic program called Calibre, which not only is a great free electronic conversion/library management tool (I have over 10,000 books), I can also search individual books for words and phrases. Having a good memory for exact phrases helps a bit though I'd be really curious about the spren-seeing-spren idea, but more from a realmatic viewpoint. The spren Elhokar are seeing are still in the cognitive realm, that is the form Cryptics take there. Pattern and Syl are currently predominantly in the physical, and don't seem to be able to communicate with their brethren in the Cognitive, at least at the current level of bonding. Based on that, I'd think it unlikely that they ran from Syl, since she's in the physical realm at the moment. But that's just my own personal idea. We don't know what's going on with Elhokar, if he stopped doing whatever he was doing to attract them, maybe that's why they disappeared. Or as I mentioned earlier, I think the cognitive realm could have become more dangerous around that time. Why can't I post without it being ridiculously long?

I'm seeing a lot of things being thrown out there and no sources so, some relevant passages: These are pretty similar descriptions and the description in Shallan's chapter certainly doesn't sound human and she frequently describes what she sees as "twisted symbols" even in her flashback chapters. It's also interesting to note that whenever Shallan "sees" them in her drawings, they are always in a group, until she actually draws Pattern out in WoR. I find it unlikely that these are separate types of spren if you consider the vast differences in both appearance and behaviour of the 6 sentient spren types we've seen thus far (Comparing Wyndle to Pattern to Ivory to Syl to Ym's spren to the Stormfather, there are almost no similarities). However, we have no idea if the Radiant spren types can be corrupted into voidspren like regular spren (see: stormspren) or what those would look like in the cognitive realm (which is where these descriptions seem to be coming from) So I don't think we can 100% rule that out, although I find it unlikely, personally. I find these descriptions also eerily similar: To me, the similarity in these two passages clinches that Elhokar was seeing Cryptics. What lies attracted them, we have no way of knowing, especially since their concept of "lie" is vastly different from ours. Perhaps merely the fact that he is "king" when in reality Dalinar has all the power is enough. He's essentially pretending to be something he's actually not - in charge. As to why they disappear when Kaladin is around, I do not know. Perhaps they are afraid of Syl. I am personally inclined to think that this is a red herring, and that they got scared off by the Voidspren that both Pattern and Syl start mentioning at around this time period. We have no idea how things manifest in the Cognitive Realm, and it's quite possible that while Pattern and Syl are relatively safe by being at least partially bonded, the Cryptics that were around Elhokar might have been in great danger had they stayed. My interpretation of this was that Pattern was sent originally. We know that was 6 years ago. There's no proof whatsoever that no others have been sent in the meantime. He hasn't had any contact that we're aware of with his own kind (and/or can't remember it yet). In addition, I think it's likely that after Shallan basically killed Pattern after killing her mother, that they sent another representative. So yes, there is major conflict between honorspren and Cryptics, but I'm pretty sure that's mostly due to opposing natures - honorspren abhor lies. Cryptics find them fascinating. Seems like enough of a fundamental difference in views to have an ongoing conflict. As to honorspren/highspren, there are multiple passages that honorspren only care about what is right regardless of the law and highspren only care about the law regardless of what is right. So some conflict there as well at times, but most often, those two things should theoretically coincide with one another. This could refer to just Pattern, but since if Syl's seeing the signs that they're "looking for someone" and Pattern has already found Shallan..... it's not out of the realm of possibility for there to be more out searching. TL;DR - I think the evidence textually of Shallan and Elhokar's encounters are too strikingly similar to be coincidence and that Elhokar is seeing Cryptics. Whether that means he'll be a lightweaver, I don't know, but so far everyone else who's seen weird sentient spren has begun bonding them. As far as I know, all Brandon questions asking about Elhokar surgebinding or sensing things have been RAFO'd, so take that as you will. It's never been denied, at any rate. As far as we know, honorblades have nothing to do with spren, other than that they copied them and they already seem to know how to do that, so I don't know why him seeing things would imply he had an honorblade. Where are there Cryptics around Vargo? Or are you talking about the epigraph?

That brings to mind a question that I've never seen asked..... do we know if all 16 of the shards were picked up? A complete non-splintered shard that never had a holder could be interesting....

He says that Kaladin's specific ability is not his fighting. I would say that that doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible that Windrunners as a general rule have some enhanced fighting abilities, just like most Lightweavers have artistic ability, Bondsmiths have leadership ability, etc. Shallan's Memory taking ability is her "specific" one, but would she be as fantastic of an artist without the bond? We've never seen her from Time-Before-Pattern so we don't know for sure, but I think we're kind of arguing semantics here. My opinion is that each order has a tendency towards a "natural" talent that is augmented by the bond, and each member gains something specific to them in regards to it.

I think you didn't find much because a lot of it is just assumed by many people, but that's just my take on it. Some things to address: Did it change her into a completely different personality or force her to act differently, while her old self is still inside.....all her references to the "screaming voice" she hears and the fact that she seems to set up Thude to escape with the people who don't want to change into stormform and she's not having her closest friends take on stormform, make me think that her original personality is still there, exactly like Marsh's was. She just has to fight subtly. We know from multiple references in WoR that they are stormspren and we are also told that stormspren are a type of Voidspren. Syl, Pattern, and the Listeners all call them by this name. Syl calls them "dangerous spren" Pattern calls them "Voidspren" The WoB makes it pretty clear that the analogy to being spiked is spot-on. I agree that there are not Odiumspren floating around in the cognitive realm most of the time, because there are multiple indications that "spren of him" coming/showing up are what prompted the "regular" spren to start seeking people out again. Pattern and Syl both refer to this. However, I disagree that Odium is "releasing" spren, into highstorms or otherwise. We know from Dalinar's visions that the Unmade (specifically Sja-Anat) corrupt spren. I think this "corruption" is the equivalent to "spiking" and is what makes the hole which allows Odium to influence the spren, and through them, the Parshendi. The Everstorm, by the descriptions we've been given, appears to have a lot of stormspren and possibly other Voidspren embedded in it, which I think are going to "bond" to any unprotected Parshendi, and then yes, mind control. I think the main difference is that in Desolations of old, the Parshendi were always bonded to corrupted spren and under the eyes of Odium/the Unmade, hence their gods, so the Everstorm wasn't needed to "force bond" them like it will be this time around. But yes, I think he's corrupting "normal" spren, as opposed to splitting off bits of his own power. Plus, he's on Braize. I'd think any bits of himself he splintered off would also be on Braize. Furthermore, I think that as part of the Oathpact (That we have WoB is still functioning), he can only start making moves on Roshar just before a desolation, commonly believed to begin when the Heralds (in this case, only poor Taln) leave Damnation, which is why we are just now starting to see them. (Which begs the question of where Taln has been during the past few years that spren have started trying to bond people again......but that's an issue for a separate discussion) I'd say if one of the unmade corrupted those spren that are around greatshells, there's some high potential there. Scary thought, that. Plus the vision in which a red-eyed, corrupted spren animates rock into a thunderclast, and that's not even a "dullform state" creature, it's just plain old rock. Taking the WoB that the Unmade can influence people and this quote about Eshonai in WoR - "Buried within those new rhythms, the names of which she intuited somehow, she could almost hear voices speaking to her. Advising her. If her people had received such guidance over the centuries, they surely would not have fallen so far." I think this is the Listeners' Gods "speaking", presumed by many to be the Unmade, and described by Rlain as “They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” TL;DR - So in summary: Odium controls Unmade. Unmade control (or possibly only influence) Parshendi through bond with "corrupted" spren (Voidspren), which were not themselves originally of Odium. Extrapolate to include people, animals, and inanimate objects bonded or associated with corrupted spren of different types. Desolation. As to your post hijack, too many things about humans and the animals we see closely associated with them do not fit the ecology of Roshar. I'd tend towards scions of Yolen more than native-to-Roshar, created by Adonalsium or otherwise.

Yup, some of us lurked for years before deciding we couldn't keep our mouths shut fingers still anymore.

I was pretty sure they'd done something like that. Jerks I used the crap out of that browser when I was in africa last time because I had 3G, but this time around, no dice. Next time, I'm bringing my old keyboard kindle. Halfway defeats the purpose of getting one with 3g, for me. My sister has a Fire, and I've read on it. It does have better "reading software" than most tablets, and being able to sync to Amazon is nice, but if we're talking straight up terms of reading comfort, Paperwhite all the way. As the Spider says, the fire is an LCD screen, and so it's just like reading on a tablet or laptop, and gives me a headache after a while, especially in the dark. The Paperwhite also has a built-in light, but it's different than tablets and much, much easier on the eyes to read for a long period of time. Plus, it doesn't light up the whole room like a tablet does in the dark, so if you've got someone else in the room with you, they appreciate it a lot more. But, she likes being able to get the games and stuff that tablets and the fire offer, and if you're into magazines or anything else that's printed in color, a tablet is probably your better option. All comes down to preference.

That is the popular current speculation I believe Of course, that would make an awful LOT of Kholin radiants, but I'm okay with that. An awful lot of Brandon's magic systems are at least somewhat genetic...hmmmmm....... and I've seen arguments that would make every single (living) Kholin a radiant. So I suppose we shall have to see which direction that goes. But just search Adolin and radiant, and you'll probably lose more hours off your day than you can possibly imagine.

I stand corrected. It was also in a dead one during the storm, rather than a live one. Is there anywhere in the books that mentions glowing in a live one? That'd be interesting...... Also a very valid point about the Everstorm being new.

Chasmfiends have large gemhearts. I don't necessarily know that that means they have large stormlight stores instantaneously. I for one, don't think so. Unless I missed an invested chasmfiend scene somewhere. Szeth has been wrong about an awful lot of things, and right about very few, but I will concede that at this point, we simply just don't know either way.

I realize that the goal is to get everything on Theoryland, but I am thinking more long term. Theoryland is a WoT devoted website, not Cosmere. And the amount of info we have is going to grow exponentially as Brandon publishes books and continues to do signings. I suppose if Theoryland is going to be around for the long haul now that WoT is completed, that's fine, I can see the benefits of a database, but it's already getting difficult to sort through the zillion things from WoT and Jordan as compared to Cosmere and Brandon, especially for more vague subjects that people refer to by many different names and phrasings, or random things such as eye color. I can only see this getting more cumbersome in the future. Plus there are a plethora of things in there that don't have anything to do with the books themselves. I realize the wiki is also theoretically going to be more fleshed out with a lot of these things at some point, and it was just a thought, that it seems like the website that's supposed to be the official Brandon site, should also have all the WoBs that are technically considered canon. Whether that means some kind of database specific to cosmere or incorporating something into the forums. I realize you can't link to individual posts, that's why I said I thought each signing or interview needed a topic. Except in a few cases, there's not so many from one place that you can't sort through them rather rapidly, especially if non-relevant information is removed (ie, WoT questions, and questions that have no bearing) Less because it's an issue now and more because if the fanbase continues to grow and the amount of info does as well, I feel like it's going to come up as an issue more and more often. But that's just my take on it You make some valid points as to why it hasn't already been done, and that's really all I was looking for.

I meant a mental problem. Putting you in a Dark Alley might be considered by some to be a solution.....

Huh, that's really interesting, I never knew any of that. But then I don't know much about the east in general. It's always cool to see some of the historical/cultural inspirations for things. I guess it being from before he was a herald makes sense. Jezrien was apparently at one time a king, so they had to have been "ordinary" originally it appears.

Haha oh my gosh you are so right "We do not speak of them" - Pattern I have no idea how I missed this, as I've been re-reading stormlight archive this week, but listening to Harry Potter in spanish at work every night. Both stories are certainly quite fresh in my head!

There's this WoB: QUESTION Are the Parshendi of Odium? BRANDON SANDERSON Not originally. Eshonai also says that the Listeners were "of the storms" so perhaps changing during the storms is written into their DNA. And the Listeners say that their minds are closer to the realms of the spren than that of humans. Also, as far as we know, the Nahel bond doesn't require stormlight to create, it requires stormlight for its powers. Perhaps going out into the storm is a way to "break" themselves enough for the spren to enter somehow - they talk about having to have the exact right mindset before they learned how to capture spren. I find it interesting that when Eshonai takes on the form, there is no mention of her glowing, no mention of her using the "power" in the form. It is only later, after Venli and several others have taken the form as well, that Venli is mentioned snapping her fingers and playing with the power (which I read as lightning). I don't see any reason why after bonding with their spren in the highstorm and drawing the attention of their "gods" they couldn't have gained access to some other form of Investiture that we don't know about yet. I get the impression that Odium's spren work rather similarly to somethings we saw in Mistborn. Odium seems to do it through his red spren once they bond with people (and things, looking at koloss, thunderclasts). Also, if the Parshendi Voidbringers are using stormlight as power, how on earth did they have enough gemstones for that battle? It took place after weeks of Weeping, stormlight reserves in spheres and gemstones would naturally be running low. That's an awful lot of people voidbinding at once. I have a pet theory that the Everstorm was summoned by them in a similar way that Pattern was drawn by Shallan, and it now contains Blightwind, one of the unmade, a counterpart to the Stormfather and a bunch of evil spren and black Investiture. But it's not a well-researched theory yet.....

That scar of his has always made me curious. What scars a Herald?? Beyond that, I've always wondered if Honor's splintering was what made the heralds start losing it. While I agree that there are spren of some orders who would be fine with killing radiants (And the evidence that surgebinders did indeed sometimes fight one another is in the books), I have my doubts that any of the spren would be fine with someone claiming to be a Herald. I think it's likely that Nalan has just gone down a weird path. 4500 years is along time, and knowing that you left a comrade in Damnation and probably also knowing that the almighty who gave you your powers is dead....well, that can mess with your head

Well, that makes sense, as I can see honorspren and highspren as having two different "subintents" of Honor. The argument can be made that it's not honorable to do anything illegal, though Syl tells Kaladin it's okay "as long as it is right" whereas from what we've seen of the Skybreakers, they are much less concerned with "what is right" (which is highly subjective anyway) and more concerned with what is legal. But many people would interpret following the law and justice to be honorable as well. It's interesting to think that the true definition of honorable should probably include both of those aspects..... That makes me think that half the orders have an "Honor sub-intent spren" and the other half have a "Cultivation sub-intent spren"

I think you guys might have a problem. And I'm developing plans for an aluminum cookie monster that can eat all these things and negate your hemalurgic intents

Adolin's going to be a Releaser. Because I said so! How's that for a carefully crafted argument? haha Welcome!

I can see some parallels between Elantris and Death Gate Cycle, I don't think that's stupid. I'm not sure any of us completely understand the magic system in Stormlight yet. I'm curious to see if it does turn out to be more complex than the one in Mistborn (which took me a while to grasp!) Welcome