little wilson

Yeah, um. The elims never contacted the neutrals again. Kind of hard to when PMs haven't been up. In fact, the only way I know of for one of us to know one of them is if they'd called in their deal with me and asked me to vote on someone. But they haven't (and sorry guys, but if Joe is going to be lynched today (or later), and you try to get me to vote on someone else, I'm not doing it. Just so you know. You can call that debt in on any day except the day Joe is lynched). So, yeah. Plus, I kind of think giving a name in exchange for a lynch is a terrible idea. You want to know suspicions? Or anything else we might know? Maybe something Yitzi told us? Fine. But even if we did know the name of an eliminator right now, I wouldn't support handing it out to the thread. Maybe if more than one anti-neutral had been evil, but we've had all the others lynched (except Drake) and they were all village (which is what I'm convinced Drake is). Full disclosure: for a time, I thought all the elims were secretly or publicly anti-neutral. During that time, I was in full support of the village. I practically was a villager in all but name. Hence going after all the anti neutrals. It fit so well with what Yitzi had been telling us about the elims wanting leverage (aka blackmail) against all of us. But that must've only been Yitzi, so now I'm back to being pure neutral. We've already helped the village. You just didn't know it. My win condition should've already been completed, but Aman died before that could happen. So now? We don't owe the village anything. Don't try to get anything out of us. Edit: oh, and Joe.

Yeah, I'll almost certainly be late. We've got like 7-9 people coming by at 6:30. I don't think it'll take long to actually show the place, so I'll try to be there as close to 7 as possible, but if I'm late, that's why.

I might be a little late (or I might have to leave early; not sure which, maybe even both, though I hope not). Things in my apartment just went a little crazy - we're trying to sell two rooms and need to have everything settled before the end of this week, so lots of showing of rooms and such. Super fun. >>

Looks like it. It's a shame Slowswift can't make it. Shall someone provide pizza or will each of us get our own in the Wilk?

Just read through Drake's analysis during the night. Drake, not only is Rand dead, Lopen is too. Lopen was killed by the eliminators on the second night.

Tuesday works for me too. @Slowswift @Ookla the Invisible @KnightRadiant @lyssie95 I can't think of anyone else who usually shows up/says they wanted to start coming, but I know there are others. Tag whoever else you can think of.

Awa is a delightful player from Championship Game 11 (not Aman's game). He's my new role model.

Chinese Fire Drill. Slang from Mafia Universe and the championship.

Oh, I have things I could add. Will I? Depends. Hey, Len. Why are you village? I'd like to hear what village things you've done this game so far. Yes, this is me pulling an Awa. Troll!Wilson is coming out. : P

Len.

I meant to do this hours ago but got distracted. Stink.

Thief's Child.

Wanna know what makes me amused with the votes on Straw? It's all about Yitzi's defense of Straw. Why do I find this funny? Because there's another player who Yitzi defended a ton more, and who defended Yitzi as well. Rand. Yes, I know, I know. I'm a neutral and this is getting to be a broken record - the neutrals going after Rand. But seriously. Look at this. First, let's look at the timestamp of Rand's vote on Joe: Now let's look at the timestamp of his last post of that turn: Almost five hours later. Why is this relevant? Because a couple people mentioned in Rand's defense that he wouldn't have done something like this if he was going to get off for the rest of the turn right after. But he didn't. He was around for almost 5 hours, continuously posting that entire time, with a very active thread. He also indicated that he was active in PMs as well (his post about having had a couple people ask if he was the PO). And one of Aman's points of defense for Rand was that an eliminator wouldn't have done that without consulting their team. Here's the thing: elims do plenty of things without consulting their team. Mostly things they know they'd do if they were village. Elim!Rand could've easily seen Joe's thing and called him out via vote because he knew he would've done it as a villager. He's got 5 hours before he has to sleep and then take his exam, so surely that's enough time to assuage any suspicion against him that may or may not arise. Unless he doesn't even consider that it will bring him suspicion. After all, he's doing something he knows he'd do as a villager. Why would that bring him suspicion? Anyway. Moving on. The four key posts Yitzi made D1 about Rand: Intermingled among these is a lengthy discussion Yitzi had with Aman about Rand and why Aman was convinced that Rand couldn't be an elim. I think we all remember that. Now, Yitzi is claiming he believes Rand is the PO, and he's very convinced that the PO is anti-village: (sidenote: why am I opposed to the convict's allies again? And the Convict? None of our win conditions are mutually exclusive. The Convict does not have to survive. He just needs the Ward to survive, and the Ward has to survive anyway for her own win con, so no problems there. The Convict can die to help the PO and they both could win. All of the neutrals could win) Despite being convinced that Rand is the PO (incorrect, obvs) and that the PO is bad for the village (also incorrect), he backs off Rand with relatively little persuasion by Aman, considering how certain he claimed to be. During N1, he says this: But he also still believes Rand is the PO: And therefore bad for the village: And here, in Day 2, is where things really start getting interesting: He still thinks the PO is bad for the village, but now, suddenly, he's unsure if Rand is the PO. What changed? I didn't claim PO to him. I claimed Eponine, and the real Eponine wasn't in touch with the eliminators during the night, so there's no way they had a PO claim. But let's say that he had some other reason to think that Rand wasn't neutral and therefore not the PO. Cue defense of Rand: Getting more interesting: Why is this interesting? Because it's still a major defense of Rand, but it's a very, very subtle one. Aman is village. He's the Scavenger, though the elims didn't know that at this point in time. What they do know is that Rand and Aman have been tied together thanks to Aman's hard defense of Rand, and if Aman dies and is shown to be village, Rand will look better. That's what the above three posts look like to me: an eliminator voting on a villager in hopes that the villager gets lynched and his buddy ends up looking better because of his ties to this villager. I see absolutely no reason for an eliminator to push the Aman/Rand thing unless it benefited them. And it most certainly would've if Aman had died and Rand is evil. Even if this backfires and Rand dies instead, Aman would still probably die because of his ties to Rand. But anyway, let's bring in Rand. I know he had other posts defending Yitzi earlier in the day, but the biggest one is this one, right towards the end of the cycle: Yitzi is leading in the votes and will die in 14 minutes. Rand's overall read is neutral, leaning very slightly elim. So why not just vote on him? If you think he could be? He's going to die no matter what. Yet Rand doesn't. And then, after rollover, he posts this: To me, this looks like he knew Yitzi's alignment before Yitzi flipped evil, and he stayed out of that vote so he could cast suspicion on those who participated later in the vote, which he wouldn't have been able to do if he had voted. And before anyone mentions the fact that most of the neutrals conveniently banded against Rand the day after the elims attacked Orlok, helping the neutrals, and therefore making it seem like the elims wanted Rand dead, that's not what happened. Most of the neutrals are pretty convinced that Yitzi and Rand were/are teammates. That vote wasn't because of the elims. I guarantee it. To my knowledge, my vote is the only one that the elims secured from attacking Orlok, because I lied and told them I was Eponine. And I didn't vote on Rand during the day, very deliberately. Also, to comment on Arin's defense of Rand because he's not playing like LG30, no player even remotely worth their salt is going to duplicate play like that. If you think every time Rand is evil he's going to play exactly like he did in LG30, you need to think again, because he won't. He certainly didn't in LG32. He fought tooth and nail straight to the end, declaring his innocence when almost anyone else would've just confessed and started trolling. But not Rand. Never Rand. He's easily good enough to be an eliminator right now and if you write him off just because what he's done doesn't make sense to you as an eliminator.....well. Go chat with Aonar about LG9 and how bad an idea that is. He did exactly that same thing with me, and it cost him the game. tl;dr: Yitzi's defenses of Straw look more like elim/village defenses (as in, an eliminator lightly defending a villager, perhaps to pocket/buddy up with that villager to a small degree). I see no way for his defenses of Rand (namely his reasons for voting Aman) and Rand's defenses of Yitzi (namely the pre-rollover analysis and post rollover suspicion-casting) to be anything but elim/elim.

Turns out Orlok won't be in Utah until August, so we don't have to worry about him until the next meeting. Tuesdays are fine. Not ideal, but I can make them work every once in a while.

It's about time this game gets locked up. Despite Lopen's horribly bloodthirsty dice (really though. His were much worse than mine), I think this game went rather well. Certainly an improvement to the first run, and I'm quite excited to see the third run of this - with a new and improved spreadsheet to boot! Congratulations to the village for the win, and well-done to the skindancers as well. You put up a merry chase right to the end and there were plenty of times it could've gone either way. It was both fun to watch and to play. As always, if anyone would like to try their hand at running a game, just get a hold of Gamma, Meta, Alvron, or myself. Not only will we get you added to the list (and the GM PM group), but we'll be more than willing to help out in any way we can. You can also post game ideas, ask questions, and get feedback from everyone over in our Art of Game Creation thread too. With all the games that we've run so far, we have plenty of experienced GMs that can help you refine any game you're working on. Thanks again to everyone who played and we look forward to killing seeing you in future games!

To add my two cents to this, while changing the meta is not something that should be attempted purely through policy lynches, I do think that at times, policy lynches are not inherently a bad thing. Sometimes, you have to throw a game to make a point. If you doing something in a game that will likely make you lose, but is to make a point in the overall meta, I think that loss is just fine. It's well-earned. A game you lose that taught a lesson is much better than a game you won that emphasized a negative playstyle. Sure. But what makes you think that something like that should be done here? 17th Shard is not your typical internet forum. I'm sure you've noticed this. Most people do. Fewer people realize the reason for that. It's not the staff. Not completely, anyway. It's the members. The members are not only quick to report those who step out of line, but they're also quick to gently remind others that certain behaviors aren't tolerated here like they are virtually everywhere else online. The members care about each other. New members either learn fast what's accepted here (and they tend to like it), or they start to run into problems with the staff and eventually find themselves banned. Chulldung behavior isn't tolerated on these forums. SE is part of 17th Shard and the same applies here too. You want to be a dick? Fine. Go somewhere else. There are literally hundreds of mafia forums on the internet. 95% of them love aggressive players who care nothing about their fellow members. Sanderson Elimination is not one of those forums, and we will not become one of those forums. If you want to threaten your fellow players, find another forum because that kind of play will never be welcome here so long as I am one of the moderators. It's toxic and opens the door for far more aggressive playstyles. And let me assure you: should these games get too aggressive and toxic, I'll be the first to go to the admins and advocate their removal. So sure, while that play is technically valid (hence why there's not a specific rule against it, because it's hard to delineate between good aggression and bad aggression), if everyone did it, the games wouldn't last the hour. So I suppose if you'd like to see mafia go bye-bye on the nicest forum on the internet, be my guest. Continue supporting these types of playstyles. If you'd like a nice sandbox to kill people in, however, you might want to be a little less aggressive. Capiche?

Re: neutrals not being offended We're not. At least, I'm not. This is what I was saying about walking the line. He already threatened a village-only role with something he couldn't deliver (all the neutrals never would've ganged up on Aman), and he was very "convinced" that Yitzi was village (I'd bet Stink was actually the first neutral contacted by the elims and knew Yitzi was actually evil), and now this. It doesn't really feel like he's playing both sides here. Even organizing Tineyes could easily be to further help and communicate. I do think it's sad it came to this. Also... This may be foolish, but Stink would probably reveal it anyway. I am Javert, the Parole Officer. Stink

Yeah, I would agree with that. I was on the spring/fall track, and while I still got a bit of the winter at the tail end of the fall and the beginning of the spring, it was usually pretty light. While it kind of sucks going to school in summer, you do get the full month of August off, and I think it's worth it to avoid the winter. I had roommates who'd get snowed in on my off-semester, but class wouldn't be cancelled. Class is never cancelled from the snow.

That's news to me. Pretty sure I didn't vote at all D1, much less in the CFD that took place while I was fast asleep at 3:00 am. And you have a townread on me? Heh. Fascinating, but okay.

That would be The Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. "Water, water everywhere, and all the boards did shrink. Water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink." (Rime might be one of my all-time favorite poems. )

Yeah, uh. When I said that major tinfoil during the day, I wasn't saying I was actually serious about it. You're going to get nothing out of today if the discussion focuses on them, because I highly doubt either will actually be lynched today.

It's like pointing at someone and saying "I'm suspicious of you."

Finger of Suspicion

Heh. Good call.

It's fine. In terms of rules-breakage with codes, this was really light. Not a problem at all.