sun tzaro

Normal men can't touch Shardbearers. We see this from Kaladin's description of how Helaran slices through soldiers like butter. Shardbearers can't touch Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs. We see this from how Szeth slaughters three prepared Shardbearers and a whole contingent of professional guards without a hitch. Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs can't touch third-Oath KRs. We see this from how Kaladin uses his superior Stormlight retention and shapeshifting Shardblade to stomp all over Szeth, a fight which absolutely should have gone in Szeth's favor since Szeth has been using Surges to slaughter skilled warriors for years, while Kaladin is comparatively a novice. The power scaling is real. I can only imagine how bad it'll get when the KRs go further into their oaths and get true Shardplate. I suppose it makes sense why inter-Order conflict was such a problem. No one else can really stand up to the KRs.

Plate is strong, but it can still be broken. Shape and thickness still matter when it comes to Plate. I imagine that you can't have Plate that is too thick or too awkwardly shaped around the groin/inner thighs area. A Plate skirt wouldn't be unreasonable.

Regrowth can only be used to revive the recently dead. We know this from Nalan's spiel about the Fabrial, and from this passage: Gawx had died less than a minute before, and Wyndle believes that it may already be too late to revive him. The use of Regrowth in reviving the dead also appears to be extremely limited. This is clear from two passages. Lift is completely incapacitated after reviving Gawx, and her exhaustion seems to extend beyond just having run out of Stormlight. True, at this point, Lift is an untrained second-Oath Edgedancer. However, I think it is reasonable to expect that where Regrowth is concerned, the degree of the injury is proportional to the amount of skill and power necessary to heal said injury. Gawx had only a cut throat. Szeth was pierced once just below the neck (Kaladin claims that this blow severed his spine, but we know that Shardblades don't cut flesh). Now, I can't pretend to know just how much more potent one injury can be considered than another when the Surge of Regrowth is involved, but I would assume that compared to decapitation or some of the more serious fatal wounds that can occur on the battlefield, a slit throat and a Shardblade wound are relatively minor. The second passage: So, while the Regrowth fabrials clearly aren't so valuable that they can't be used to save the common folk, their use is limited. The woman in this quote has glowing tan eyes and a Shardplate that glows with amber light. She is clearly a Stoneward. It is telling that an Edgedancer was not dispatched. The Edgedancers are described as lithe and deadly warriors; abrasion also gives them mobility that would no doubt allow them to respond to disasters far faster than Stonewards. This leads to the conclusion that either the services of Edgedancers are required elsewhere, or that Regrowth requires so much energy that an Edgedancer would be forced to rely on fabrials anyhow, and so would be no more effective than any other Order using fabrials to aid the wounded. Of course, maybe there were Edgedancers there, but Dalinar just didn't see any. My bet is that Regrowth fabrials are something along the lines of metalminds - they must be created and empowered by Truthwatchers or Edgedancers and require a great deal of time to create. To me, this is the only plausible explanation Sanderson could go for, since it would make sense for the Radiants to have a stockpile of such devices in preparation for a Desolation, but force the Radiants to be conservative in their use. See here: It seems to me that Szeth was revived immediately after hitting the ground, but only gained consciousness later. I think you are missing a crucial part of Szeth's narrative, and a crucial part of the interaction between Szeth and Nalan. Szeth is not repenting. You can't repent for the slaughter of thousands, both guilty and innocent. Nalan doesn't expect him to. Szeth's resurrection is his rebirth. He is no longer Truthless, and only dying has allowed him to walk a new path—the path of a Skybreaker. Something tells me that Szeth isn't going back to Shinovar to seek forgiveness.

I think Renarin is a little more man that you suspect. Kaladin could barely hold a screaming Shardblade for a few seconds. Renarin lugged one around for a week, and didn't breathe a word of complaint. In fact, I think it's a miracle that Renarin isn't flipping insane from all that he's been through. Kaladin had Syl to guide him nearly every step of the path along his way to Radiance-y. Since Renarin's communication with his Spren appears to have been very limited, he had no idea what was causing the screams. He thought it was all in his head. In the assault on the plateau with Roion and Ruthar - Renarin takes completely responsibility for his failure. Except... he didn't fail because he was a coward. He simply has trouble fighting with a screaming Shardblade. Kaladin, a relatively seasoned warrior, would have had trouble fighting with a screaming Shardblade. A novice like Renarin, who has no idea why his blade screams in the first place, wouldn't have had a chance. Are you sure you're not thinking of Kaladin? Renarin is weak, untrained, and certainly fails on numerous occasions, but he's also hardworking, obedient, and he normally keeps his mouth shut. If there's a sequence in WoK/WoR to the contrary, please enlighten me. I don't believe any of the other Radiants have had visions of the future. Dalinar's visions were from the past and were sent by the Almighty, aspects which I believe he uses to sanctify his visions to the rest of the Highprinces and their respective kingdoms in WoK. Renarin can claim no such thing, and he is seeing visions of the future. Which is, of course, taboo, and I think that the traditions of Vorinism are a little more deeply ingrained in Alethkar society than you guys seem to believe. Predicting the weather is frowned upon. Renarin's visions of doom will undoubtedly be met with doubt and suspicion by even those who accept the return of the Radiants. Sadeas has been removed as a problem, but Vorinism is still everywhere - and Dalinar himself adheres to it. Renarin's soothsaying abilities are going to spell a TON of trouble for him in the future. Here, Renarin is portending Szeth's arrival. Just a note - from this, and from other passages (I spent some time looking them up, and I'd be happy to provide them if anyone is curious) in WoR, we know for near certain that Renarin was responsible for the countdown. Again, Dalinar cannot see the future. And there, we see that Renarin curses his ability. He himself fears it. Renarin speaking and remaining in the shadows, and then continuing to tremble even after being acknowledged. If that passage doesn't scream foreboding, I don't know what does. I also see the "Why was the lad trembling?" part as blatant foreshadowing for how the father/son dynamic is going to work in the next book. Dalinar is not going to understand what Renarin is going through. Hell, no one is going to understand what Renarin is going through, including Renarin himself. Quote Unlike the other orders, whom have had much of their past recorded in the literal book Words of Radiance, as well as, presumably, other places in the archives of Urithiru, the Truthwatchers left few records. As I said before, Renarin is going to be experiencing one of his society's greatest taboos with literally no guidance. I'm almost certain I know exactly how part of Stones Unhallowed is going to turn out. Renarin is going to find himself an outcast once again, but this time it is all the more crushing because he has known what it is to be accepted. Bridge Four follows Kaladin because he is their leader, and he has proven himself time and again. Kaladin mentions how he worries that Bridge Four would reject him because of his powers; Bridge Four accepts him in spite of his powers, not because of his powers. And even then, it is repeatedly mentioned how Kaladin is set apart from Bridge Four because of his position as a Radiant. Dalinar is a Highprince. He is the Blackthorn, a man who has commanded for over half his life. Dalinar has no equals. He doesn't ask for respect, he demands it. Being a Radiant is, for him, a boon, and likely doesn't set him apart anymore than his following the Alethi war Codes did. Shallan is used to being alone. She has known few friends, and her status as a Radiant has not really affected her relationships with others, beyond that of her relationship with Adolin. And now, after her public displays of knowledge and power, she too demands respect. All Radiants are essentially outcasts from society. They are alone. However, all of the ones mentioned above are also, in their own ways, leaders. They are Radiants, but they are also respected. But Renarin? What has Renarin done? Who is Renarin now? He was a mopey little boy, the disappointment of the Kholin family. Now, he is a blaspheming mopey little boy with the powers of the Radiants, who are still hated throughout most of Roshar. Bridge Four will treat Renarin with respect, but he is not one of them anymore. Renarin is alone.

Considering how stringent the Alethi appear to be when it comes to courting and formal marriages, and how they do follow some rather restrictive social rules (men can't read, etc.), I'd have expected homosexuality to be off the table completely. But then again, maybe I'm only thinking of the social norms that apply to lighteyes. I remember Skar and Drehy, but I don't remember any sort of romantic relationship between the two. Can someone spoonfeed me some intext citations for this one?

Kaladin and Shallan? Please, no YA love triangles in my Stormlight Archives. Hopefully Kaladin can man up, as Dalinar did when it came to the Navani-Gavilar relationship, and back off. I'm reassured by the fact that Sanderson is a devout Mormon, because that means that I won't have to put up with any shoehorned-in sexual deviancy in what is, by all means, a conservative fantasy society.

Contrary to some of the opinions here, I think Renarin will become one of the more interesting characters in the SA. Renarin is a Truthwatcher. Truthwatchers see the future, and judging from Renarin's behavior when Shallan was opening the Oathgate, Renarin has seen some really disturbing things. Vorinism despises prophecy and foretelling the future. Have you ever wondered just why Renarin refuses all urging to join the ardentia? Renarin was already a shadow in the Kholin family. Adolin talks about he makes women nervous. Where Dalinar and Adolin are leaders and warriors, Renarin is a scholar and a weakling. He has a spren that no one else can see, and he sees visions of death and destruction (presumably) that no one else can see. The society he has been raised in will hate and mistrust him. Kaladin has left for Hearthstone, and Shallan appears to strongly dislike Renarin. That leaves only his father as a Radiant he can turn to, and Dalinar is almost certainly preoccupied with a billion other things. Renarin, who already is an outcast in Alethkar society, is going to be experiencing one of Vorinism's greatest taboos with pretty much no guidance whatsoever. For the next few books, to be Renarin is to suffer. Which is interesting.

The Returned have access to one "big" Breath. If Szeth is Returned, he won't be able to draw on his single Returned Breath incrementally. So, if he were to draw Nightblood, Nightblood would consume that single breath in an instant. While it is an amusing idea, if Szeth had actually become Returned, Sanderson would have written in some mention of a change in his physical appearance. EDIT - Adding something to this post. Maybe I was wrong! I was looking through the list of WoBs and found this: Obviously, "much harder to get" refers to Breath - Zahel is substituting Stormlight for Breath. Since Zahel is merely a powerful Returned, if he can substitute Stormlight for Breath, then perhaps a Returned Szeth could do the same, which would allow him to wield Nightblood.

Remember, Szeth has been twisted beyond imagining. Towards the end of WoR, he grows progressively more hateful towards the people he kills. In the confrontation on the Shattered plains, after dispatching Dalinar, Szeth was about to turn on Adolin. He says something along the lines of "What's one more death? I'll kill you on my own time." (I'd love to actually have an exact quote here, but I've lent out my copy of WoR. ) Up to that point, Szeth had hated killing. He did kill indiscriminately, but only in accordance with his orders. What I got out of Szeth's dialogue in that scene was that if Szeth had actually killed Adolin, he would not absolved of that murder by his status as Truthless. Which means that Szeth was this close to not becoming a Skybreaker. Nalan believes Szeth is the ideal Skybreaker candidate because he follows the customs and laws of his people to the letter. If Szeth had killed Adolin, after his order of killing Dalinar was fulfilled (at that point, Dalinar's death was all but certain - he had been lashed into the sky and Kaladin had yet to arrive), Nalan would not have seen him as fit to join their ranks. Szeth is incredibly mentally unbalanced at the end of WoR. Considering how he begins blaming his victims for incompetence, and how he was about to murder of his own volition, I would not be surprised if Szeth is feeling hatred, anger, and a lust for revenge against the Shin masters who twisted him beyond comprehension.. I suspect that a large part of Stones Unhallowed will deal with Szeth learning to master his emotions under the tutelage of Mr. Stone cold. And, just to respond to a point on the previous page - I see; I was indeed misunderstanding your point. Perhaps you're right, and the Spren he sees are not Radiant related. Alternatively, we do know the Elkohar's wife is mad, and that Gavilar had more than a few disturbing dealings and hidden plots. We don't know much about Elkohar; he might indeed have secrets of own. Enough to warrant a visit from the Cryptics? Maybe, maybe not.

Urghhh, I strongly disagree with this. I don't think that Szeth made the easy choices. In fact, I feel that we've been shown the exact opposite in the books - Szeth hates himself for what he has done, and at the end of WoR he's pretty much on the brink of insanity. As Szeth himself says in his conversation with Nalan, he has destroyed himself. Yet Szeth followed the Shinovar tradition - Shinovar law - because that's what he believed was the right and honorable thing to do. If we are defining morals as what a person believes is right (I was introduced to this definition by moogle, over here http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/17226-theory-to-explain-darknesss-actions/page-3), then Szeth's moral fiber probably surpasses that of anyone who we've seen so far. As for Maxal, I think you are operating under two assumptions that I believe are incorrect. 1. A person must "deserve" to be a KR to become one. Now, I can see how you arrived at this conclusion. Kaladin's past deeds certainly were worthy of a Windrunner, as can be said of Szeth and the Skybreakers. We don't know much about the Elsecallers, but Jasnah is accomplished enough to assume that she probably deserved the title too. But what about Shallan and Lift? Shallan got her sketchbook after she had killed her mother with Pattern. She was just a child when Pattern bonded with her - she had accomplished virtually nothing. And yet now, I'm sure we all agree that she has done a pretty solid job as a Lightweaver. Lift was a petty thief. A likeable one, yes, but deserving of becoming an Edgedancer? No. In fact, we know that Lift only became a KR because Wyndle was told to choose her because of the abilities Lift gained after visiting the Nightwatcher. Hardly a decision based on Lift's own personal merit. 2. KRs must be inspirational and honorable. I think that what Syl believes has impacted your conception of the KRs as a whole a little too strongly. Sure, the Windrunners are honorable. The Bondsmiths are inspirational. But the rest of the orders? You seem to see the KRs as a force of good, who exist for the primary purpose of leading men into action, but I don't think that's the case. Sure, you could argue that the KRs all operate according to the first Oath - but we've only seen a Windrunner's interpretation of the first Oath. What about all of the other orders? The original KRs were led by the Heralds, and this Herald doesn't even believe in goodness. And the Spren, from which the KR's power is derived? The Stormfather resents humans. Pattern doesn't seem too concerned with the ideals of honor. We don't know much about Ivory, but his first encounter with Jasnah certainly didn't involve him protesting the assassination she was planning. I don't think the KRs don't exist to be good, or even honorable. They exist to fight the Voidbringers, and each fills a different niche. As a side comment, I think you're being a little too harsh on Elkohar. It took Dalinar over 40 years to develop a conscience. I think Elkohar still deserves a little more time. We also wouldn't have seen Elkohar break down in front of Kaladin if that wasn't going to relevant to Elkohar's character development at a later point. I think Elkohar will change - although I do hope that surgebinding isn't necessarily involved, because, like many, I think we already have more than enough Kholin Radiants.

Now this would be cool to see. Now, I really do wonder what Kaladin will do with the Honorblade. Handing it to Adolin would be far too cut-and-dry, considering how Kaladin still mistrusts - if not resents - lighteyes. I don't think he'll give it to one of Bridge Four either, considering how well giving Shards to Moash worked out. I think the idea of Adolin obsessing over the idea of doing wrong for the greater good is an excellent one, especially since it's an idea that is so directly opposed by the KR (journey before destination, yadda yadda). Although, Mr. T does already sort of fill that niche. Now, I've been wondering about the role of Gaz and Vathath in the rest of the series. While Sanderon is certainly fond of twists, in many ways he is a textbook writer (I mean, he is a teacher, right?) and I find it very unlikely that he'd introduce two characters like Gaz and Vathath, give them quite a bit of "screen"-time, and then have them remain unimportant for the rest of the series. In fact, the more I think about this, the more sure I am - it would be exactly in Sanderson's style to throw a curveball like this. Gaz and Vathath are going to become Squires. Think about it. There's no way that the Lightweaver Squires could all be on the level of artistic talent of a Lightweaver like Shallan. Shallan is a prodigy; there are very few like her. From what we've seen, Squires can't surgebind at all - they are only able to utilize Stormlight for enhanced speed and healing. I think that it's likely that artistic skills aren't requisite at all - perhaps the only requirement is loyalty to a KR, and Gaz and Vathath certainly are loyal to Shallan. And, in the same way that the Bridgeman emulate Kaladin in bravery, Gaz and Vathath seem to hold almost as many secrets as Shallan does. But more than that, think of the implications. Ex-mercenary Squires would be an incredible contrast to the Bridgeman Squires - especially considering their history with Gaz. I think Sanderson would have a field day with all the tension that would cause, and it would certainly be an elegant way of showing how different the KR orders can be.

As others in this thread have pointed out, WoR Kaladin was focusing on staying hidden more than on just surviving, as he was in WoK. I was rereading a section of WoR, when I was trying to contend the idea that Kaladin never really had all that much innate skill, and I found that Kaladin does seem to really have a way with the spear. In his first encounter with Szeth in the hallway, he can anticipate Szeth's moves, and seems to be on the verge of beating him - that is, until he finds out that Szeth can move just as fast as he can, since they are both Stormlight users. I think maybe an explanation for Kaladin's drop in prowess - beyond his urge to be more discreet in stormlight usage - is that in much of WoR, Kaladin has lost his way. In WoK, he was fighting to protect a group of bridgeman that he had come to love. He was fighting to keep a promise to himself, a promise to keep all of them alive. In WoR, Kaladin is lost. As Syl notes, he should be happy - but he's not. He's surrounded by Lighteyes, and the struggle for survival seems distant - Kaladin is more consumed with his hatred for Amaram, and with the plot to kill Elkohar than anything else. I think Kaladin's attitudes, at the very least, certainly make sense, considering his situation. What could possibly stop their marriage? I mean, after all, they both deal with problematic lighteyes in the same way.

How cryptic! I assume this response mostly has to do with the biggest point of confusion - is Taravingian responsible for the Szeth being made into a Truthless? Apparently, during the day of the Diagram, Mr. T decided he needed a Truthless... but Szeth had been around for two years prior. So, was Szeth a tool that Mr. T thought he would have to create, but ended up not having to? Can Mr. T affect time travel? I'm responding to posts in down-to-up order, because it's easier for me. For figures as powerful as the heralds, even noninterference is significant. Either they approved of the assassination through inaction, or they didn't think Gavilar was important enough to act over. This doesn't bother me so much - Nalan has agents of his own, which we saw when he was chasing Lift. Azir is pretty far away, but I don't think mobility is an issue for Nalan - he was able to travel across the shattered plains to get exactly where he needed to be at exactly the right time, which implies that he is either a very fast traveler, or he has amazing powers of foresight (which would resolve the problem of keeping tabs on Szeth in its own way). You're certainly right - we know very little about the other surges. But from what we do know, I don't think that the Elsecaller blade or the Truthwatcher blade would be effective tools of assassination. I assume that to use the surge of illumination, whether you're a Truthwatcher or a Lightweaver, you'd need artistic skills on the level of Shallan's - which Szeth doesn't seem to have, and I would also assume that invisibility would be a very difficult trick to master. From what we've seen so far, Honorblades give to normal humans powers equivalent to that of a second Oath KR - and Shallan's second Oath (or Truth, rather), is nowhere near giving her the capability of turning invisible. As for Elsecallers, I see two problems - Soulcasting is an expensive art, one that does not allow for much in the way of improvisation. We know that KR's use less Stormlight than Honorblade users, and Jasnah needed three fairly large gemstones to take on three meager criminals. Szeth would need an incredible amount of gemstones to take on a contingent of soldiers and a shardplate user. The surge of transportation also seems problematic - Jasnah summons a ring of light when she arrives, and her arrival isn't instant. That's plenty of time for the king to disappear - and while some might not know how to react, a king like Gavilar might know exactly what the ring of light implies. Yeah, that discredits part of this theory pretty strongly. I always thought that the only time we saw Nalan at the feast was when Jasnah encountered him - I forgot about the passage we get from Szeth's perspective. I still find it strange that Nalan is going after the Shin. Szeth has personal motives - he was wronged. But as Szeth himself acknowledges, the Shin are generally a rather peaceful people. Are they crime bosses? Their crimes would have to be very significant to justify going after them, considering the tools at their disposal. Although, in that, I'm contradicting myself - if Nalan has his own Honorblade, then I don't think he'd have any trouble at all. Which brings me back to part of this theory that I believe in strongly - I think that bringing justice to the Shin is a task done more for Szeth's sake than for Nalan's. I don't think that the crime of making Szeth Truthless would be all that significant in Nalan's eyes - the Shin didn't seem to want to acknowledge the return of the Desolations, and Nalan didn't seem to want to either. So I think Nalan must have some ulterior motive here. You're right - the Shin and the Stone Shamans must be more capable than I thought. However xenophobic they may be, though, I cannot accept that they would give Szeth a weapon of incredible power that they had safekept for years without monitoring it's usage. They'd have to be incredibly dismissive of anything that happens outside of Shinovar to go that far. I think they must have an agent on the outside - if not Nalan, then perhaps a Stone Shaman - though we've never seen one of these, so I'm inclined to think that Szeth's watcher is a character we've encountered already.

That's true - I assumed that the passage of thousands of years would have desensitized them, but perhaps I'm thinking about it wrong - maybe all this time has just changed their behaviors to a very extreme degree. That certainly is a very intriguing interpretation of what "getting worse" could mean. But, Jezrien is a drooling drunk? Do we think that Axies, the alespren guy, is Jezrien? I guess it could be, since the art-smasher certainly seems to be Shallash, and both characters have appeared in interludes without appearing to be directly connected to the main story. True - and we don't know much about Ishar, but we do know that Kalak seems to defer to Jezrien. It indeed probably is Kalak.

I thought of this while reading this topic, but I felt that what I was going to write diverged a little too much from what was being discussed. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/18012-the-heirs-feasting-companions/ Be warned - some leaps in logic inbound. This scene is from the prologue of WoR. In it, Nalan and another man - possibly a herald, as a poster in the other topic suggested - are conversing. "That creature carries my lord's own Blade" clearly refers to Szeth. "We shouldn't have let him keep it" strongly suggests that Nalan and the other man were, in part, responsible for Szeth's possession of an Honorblade. "What we've done was wrong" certainly could refer to the assassination of Gavilar - assassination is a dishonorable deed, certainly something that Jezrien would frown upon, and the other man seems to respect and defer to Jezrien. Considering that deposing Gavilar, who wanted to return the Voidbringers, would fit in with the motivations of at least Nalan, I think it is very likely that Nalan and the other man were complicit in the assassination of Gavilar. This passage is from Szeth's discussion with Nalan, after being revived. The Shin have been responsible for the Honorblades for a very long time. They would not give Szeth an Honorblade, and then also give up all control of Szeth. This leaves room for two possibilities: either Szeth's oathstone was taken from the Shin, or the Shin have made certain that Szeth's oathstone, while out of their possession, was very carefully tracked by a very capable agent. Either way, all signs point to Nalan. From earlier in their conversation: Now, Szeth could be saying this could be because Nalan is a Herald - and the Heralds are worshipped. But consider how no one recognized Taln - that is, besides Amaram, who was privy to secret knowledge as a member of the Sons of Honor. Very few accurate depictions of the Heralds, as they were, seem to exist - and 4,500 years have passed since then. It seems to me that Szeth only recognizes Nalan as a Herald of Justice, because Nalan himself implies that he is a god, and then refers to the ideals of justice. I think Szeth recognizes Nalan because he has seen him before - in Shinovar, perhaps even before he became Truthless. Now, it appears that Nalan has been involved with Szeth since the beginning - or at least since before Gavilar's death, two years after he became truthless. But, in recruiting Szeth, has Nalan just made use of a conveniently available tool? Or has he been grooming Szeth from the beginning? In a way, Szeth is the ideal Skybreaker. The Skybreakers don't believe in the notion of "good" and "evil". They believe in the law, and they believe in justice. Szeth has been doing what he thought was "good" - what he thought was the right thing - by acting as Truthless. He hated killing. He hated himself. But he stayed true to his people, because he believed it was the honorable thing to do. And now, Nalan has a pawn that is thoroughly disillusioned with the notion of "goodness" and honor. And what is that pawn wielding? A sword that doesn't know what "evil" is. Now, the last part of this post contains a lot of reaching, and it certainly has the most holes. I personally think it's plausible, though. The final piece of the puzzle is the question of why Nalan wants to "bring justice" to the Shin elders. Just "bringing justice" is most likely not his motive, since Nalan's selective pursuit of criminals has shown that he certainly has an ulterior agenda. First, the missing Shardblade. The Shin have seven, Szeth has one, Taln has one, and there is one unaccounted for. Now, if the Shin were trying to create an assassin, what would be the optimal Honorblade to give said assassin? While all of the surges are no doubt strong in their own right, three Honorblades come to mind as being strongest in the hands of one meant to kill a target and then get out. The Honorblade that corresponds to the Lightweavers. Illumination requires great artistic skill, and Soulcasting requires significant resources, so this one would have been out of the question for Szeth. The Honorblade that corresponds to the Windrunners. Of course, this is the one Szeth actually uses, and it works well. Gravitation makes an assassin nigh impossible to catch. Adhesion is less potent in combat... ...so what about the other Honorblade that uses Gravitation? The one that is tied to a far more destructive Surge than Adhesion - the Surge of Division. The Honorblade of the Skybreakers. Surely an assassin with this tool would be unstoppable? Why would the Shin not give this Honorblade to Szeth? The answer is that the Shin no longer have this Honorblade. Nalan has it. And, this is another assumption, but I find it unlikely that a Herald would be in need of more than one Honorblade - so Nalan should be content to allow the other Honorblades to remain unused in the possession of the Shin. And anyhow, considering that he was able to acquire his own, he shouldn't have had any significant problems in acquiring the rest of them if he wanted to - especially since it appears that normal men cannot use Honorblades to the full extent of their power. So, if not for justice, and if not for the Honorblades, why would Nalan send Szeth after the Shin? It's because this is the final part of molding Szeth, a sort of extreme, ultimate test. Nalan wants to create a Skybreaker who shows no prejudice, even in dealing with his own people. He wants to create the perfect embodiment of justice. Batman. So? Wildly improbably? Connecting dots that aren't there? Plausible? Was there something I missed? Discussion time!

I really don't think that "what we've done was wrong" refers to the Oathpact. Remember, the Oathpact happened 4,500 years ago - in that intervening time span, the Heralds almost certainly came to terms with what they had done. I find it very unlikely that the Oathpact is the topic of their conversation. I think that the topic is Gavilar's assassination - it certainly seems like they were complicit in it, and one who follows/defers to Jezrien would certainly regard the deed as dishonorable. So, considering that the Oathpact is likely not the topic of their conversation, I also have to disagree with your assessment that the skittish Alethi man is Kalak. I understand how you came to that conclusion - Kalak does seem to defer to Jezrien in the prologue of A Way of Kings, but I don't think that he would be that subservient - and a Herald certainly would not squeak and run away upon seeing Jasnah (she's scary, but not that scary). Wait - no, I'm wrong. He refers to Nalan and Shalash and himself as we, and says that they're all getting worse, so you're right, he most likely is a Herald. His behavior definitely is decidedly un-Heraldlike - the Heralds have been around for thousands of years, and they've seen and done things that no other mortals have. While I doubt that most of them are as stone-cold as Nalan, I have a hard time accepting that any of them would be skittish - unless they're incredibly nervous about something.

On the contrary, I think he'd be quite pleased. Following this theory, the followers of a Radiant could very well glow more than the Radiants themselves. As far as the Surgebinder wielding Honorblades scenario goes... what about a Surgebinder wielding two Honorblades at once? Potentially six surges could be used, but at the cost of an incredible amount of Stormlight - more than any amount of gems could provide, I'll bet. But, at the end of WoR, Szeth and Kaladin have access to near infinite stormlight when fighting in the highstorm itself...

Is this a WoB? I don't recall such a thing from WoR, and google isn't turning anything up. I find this hard to accept. Kaladin joined the army when he was 16. In WoR, I believe he's 21. Kaladin has been through a hell of a lot, but combat wise? Kaladin fought normal men (ones that he himself describes as the dregs of the armies of Alethkar) in Amarams army for four years. At the end of his time in Amaram's army, he successfully kills a full Shardbearer. This occurs when Kaladin is not aware of his powers, and seems to have been as much luck as skill. Kaladin was a slave, and led several rebellions against different slaveowners over the course of about eight months. Each time, he was probably fighting against mercenaries, with improvised weapons, and each time, he failed. He becomes a bridgeman, and does no fighting until the stand at the Tower, where he fights Parshendi. Here, he knows that stormlight gives him enhanced speed, strength, and healing, and he is successful in defeating numerous Parshendi. As part of the Kholin family guard, he fights Szeth. He holds his own for about a minute, which is impressive. In this battle, both are channeling stormlight, but neither is fully aware of the other's powers. In the arena, he fights four shardbearers alongside Adolin. Kaladin has pretty significant success here, but he avoids channeling too much stormlight, and has the advantage of surprise on his side. His last real fight is against a chasmfiend. Here, he had no stormlight to aid him. Kaladin's combat experience is not negligible, but prior to fighting Szeth, he has only had three combat experiences against capable enemies: Helaran, the four duelists, and the Parshendi. The rest were mercenaries or conscripted soldiers. Szeth is 35 years old and has been Truthless for eight years. He has slaughtered Kings and King's guards - presumably some of the most skilled soldiers in an army - en masse. Gavilar was supposed to be one of the greatest swordsmen of Alethkar, and Szeth killed him two years after becoming Truthless. Objectively speaking, Szeth has the edge in combat experience. I very strongly disagree. We've seen what Kaladin was like when Syl has deserted him. In WoR he holds a spear and it feels wrong - he finds that his skills are gone, and wonders how much of his ability - his talent - was dependent on Syl. Stormlight and Syl have been giving him an edge for ages - even if he didn't know it. It seems that a lot of people around here are very dismissive of Szeth's fighting abilities. I want to make a comment on this - surgebinding ability is fighting ability. In the same way that using a shardblade is far different than using a normal sword, fighting with surgebinding is far different than fighting without it. If you had given Tyne a shardblade and the surgebinding abilities of a Windrunner, she wasn't suddenly going to become an incredible warrior, simply because she was very competent at swordplay. Shardblade, surgebinding, and swordplay are used in conjunction. A shardblade allows someone to ignore armor, which changes the nature of swordplay completely. Gravitic surgebinding allows someone to fight while in flight and while lashing the other person in different directions, which changes the nature of fighting with shardblades completely. Szeth is an accomplished fighter with a shardblade and with surgebinding. Just because he may be a very weak fighter without his honorblade doesn't diminish the fact that he is very skilled. So, how did Kaladin defeat Szeth? I don't think the answer is innate skill, and that Kaladin won just because the playing field was leveled. In fact, now that I think about it, it was actually significantly leveled in Kaladin's favor. Syl explicitly says after Szeth's first assassination attempt on Dalinar that Kaladin, with just his second Oath, was potentially capable of doing the same things that Szeth could - and yet Kaladin was struggling to stick a rock to a wall, while Szeth was running upside down , smashing people together, and creating all kinds of havoc. Really, all of this makes me wonder just how powerful a full Knights Radiant must be. A Radiant in full plate, able to use a weapon that can change forms incredibly fluidly in the midst of combat, with respective surges fully mastered, must be incredibly ahead of everything we've seen so far. Just the weapon-changing-forms things makes me hope that Sanderson really knows what he's doing. Just that changes the nature of fighting completely. Being able to switch from a spear, for reach in combat, to a blade, for slicing in close quarters, to a hammer, for blunt force, to a shield, for defense from nearly anything... now that I think about it, if the weapon-changing-forms ability isn't exclusive to Windrunners, Sanderson is going to have a HELL of a time writing any sort of fight scene between Radiants. Perhaps he'll avoid one altogether.

Thank you! People around here seem to reason out their posts quite well, so I feel obligated to do the same. I agree - absolve was the wrong word to use there. You did pick up on what I was trying to point out there, though - Nalan appears to respect the law of a person's culture, rather than the law of the current location. Yeah, this is probably why moogle wanted to avoid a discussion of philosophy - morality is definitely a subject that has been studied for many, many years, and anything I can post on the topic of morality probably either vastly oversimplifies things or shows my ignorance. So, I'll try to say it how I should have said it in the first place: I do not believe that the Skybreakers (Nalan included) accept the idea of an innate sense of "right" and "wrong". That's what makes the dichotomy between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers so interesting - Windrunners like Kaladin and Syl believe in doing what is right, regardless of the law or of what anyone else thinks. Skybreakers do not believe in an innate sense of "right" - they believe that men choose for themselves what is "right", and that is why they believe that the laws, which men make for themselves, are absolute. In fact, that's what makes Szeth such a perfect Skybreaker. One's innate sense of "right" and "wrong" is very much dependent on how one was brought up. Szeth was raised to believe that by acting as Truthless, he was doing the right thing - and now, he is very much disillusioned with what the Shin have taught him. If I recall correctly, Szeth believed that following the commands of the one holding his oathstone was his last way of retaining his honor. Now, Szeth has realized that his honor and his sense of "right" and "wrong" were false. The Truthless are still a construct of Shinovar law - but now that Szeth has realized that he was made Truthless under false pretenses, he can, as a Skybreaker, be justified in considering what was done to him a crime. I think these are interesting points. Ultimately it all boils down to one question: What is the stance of Skybreakers when it comes to following the law? According to a WoB, the second ideal of the Skybreakers is: “I will put the law before all else.” Does this mean that Skybreaker philosophy is to follow the laws of man above all else? If this is the case, then Nalan's selective justice would indeed suggest that he has broken from the original ideals of the Skybreakers, and now only follows the laws of man because of ties to his heraldic powers, as Shaggai suggest, or perhaps because he still feels a lingering duty to at least try to follow what were once the ideals of his order. Perhaps it means that the Skybreaker philosophy is not necessarily to act as enforcers of the law, but to treat the law as the final word in all of their activities, above their own innate sense of "right" and "wrong". If this is the case, then the Skybreakers are free to pursue their own goals as long as they comply with the laws of man, and thus Nalan is still a true Skybreaker. The final possibility is the one kaelok suggested. Perhaps "the law" refers to an as-of-yet unknown universal law that requires the Skybreakers to follow the laws of the land that they are in (or rather, follow the laws of the cultures of the people they deal with). If this is the case, then again, Nalan is still a true Skybreaker.

I would like to be a skybreaker. I really appreciate the idea of an order that respects the laws that men make for themselves as absolute. Too often, people believe that they should take things into their own hands, when they think that the justice that the law has dealt out is inadequate. And it's true - certainly there are times when the system does fail. We've seen scenarios like this play out in real life - for example, take the Ferguson riots. In many such situations, especially when a lack of clear and unbiased information is involved, it's impossible to tell who is "right" and who is "wrong". Meting out "justice" based on intangible values is a dangerous thing. I'd also like to note that the Skybreaker philosophy is not merciless justice - if the law allows for mercy, then the Skybreakers will follow the law. Of course, I wouldn't have wanted Kaladin to sit and rot as a bridgeman just because teaching Bridge Four to fight was (probably) against Alethkar law. I don't buy into Skybreaker philosophy completely, but I appreciate it. Also, Skybreakers have the best surges. The flying abilities of the Windrunners combined with the immense destructive potential of the Dustbringers? That sounds pretty solid to me. And I mean, who wouldn't want to hang with Szeth?

I think you're right - I guess what I was trying to say is that under Shinovar law, Szeth wouldn't be executed. Nalan adheres to the law that a person is subject to - in Lift's case, Azish law; in Szeth's case, Shinovar law. How he decides what set of laws a person is subject to is certainly not understood - Lift was not native to Azir, but when Lift was is in Azir, he prosecuted her under Azish law, whereas on the other hand, Szeth is not native to Alethkar, but when Szeth was in Alethkar, he was apparently still absolved of his crimes because he was Truthless - a thing of Shinovar. Perhaps the scholarly branch of the Skybreakers was dedicated to deciding the legal implications of the overlapping and conflicting laws of separate cultures. That's kind of what I was trying to get at - the idea that morals stem from how people feel innately about certain things - that what Taravangian does is wrong, even if it is for the greater good, or, in Syl's case, that she feels that seeking revenge against Amaram is wrong, even if it is justified. And emotions are what people feel, right? I don't think Nalan has that sort of innate feeling - which I'm calling morality, although maybe that's not the correct term for it, To quote a passage I found in another topic when I was looking up Nalan: “Why...why do you hunt me?” (Lift speaking) “In the name of justice.” “There are tons of people who do wrong things,” she said. She had to force out every word. Talking was hard. Thinking was hard. So tired. “You...you coulda hunted big crime bosses, murderers. You chose me instead. Why?” “Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.” “I saved him,” Lift said. “I did something good, didn’t I?” “Goodness is irrelevant,” Darkness said. His Shardblade dropped into his fingers. That sounds to me like he is dismissing the notion of morality. Although, it could be that he does have innate feelings, but considers them meaningless. I see what you're getting at, but he is still being selective. If he were enforcing laws based on severity, mass killings would be at the top of his list. There are no human laws (well, I'm pretty sure there aren't) that relate to the desolations. Nalan was going to execute Lift, and he did execute Ym, based on relatively minor transgressions. Yes, their actions were enough to deserve death - but there are no doubt many others who had committed far greater offenses that deserved far greater punishments. Yet, Nalan still prioritized Lift and Ym over crime bosses and serial killers because preventing Desolations is at the top of his agenda, not at the top of the agenda of the law.

I think Nalan's mental state isn't necessarily a symptom of being corrupted by any outside force, or of being mad. Nalan is a herald, a quasi-immortal being that is far older, smarter, stronger, and generally more powerful than any human on Roshar. When it comes to thinking long-term, few can do it better than someone who's been around for 4500 years. Considering how the powers of heralds put them far above mankind, and considering how long he's been around, and how far-reaching his plans might be, I don't think it should be surprising that Nalan doesn't display any emotion at the deaths of a few proto-radiants. The other possible explanation is that Nalan doesn't do emotions. Emotions are linked to morals - morals are supposed to be intrinsic values that we react to emotionally, right? Well, that sounds iffy as I write it, but if you can buy that, then it makes sense that Nalan doesn't do emotions. We know for certain that Nalan doesn't do morals. He believes that the laws that men place upon themselves are paramount, which is why he went through the full process of gathering the massive stack of paperwork required to permit him to execute Lift, but allowed Lift to go free when the Prime pardons her. This also explains why he has no issue with Szeth's massive killcount - while under many (most) laws, Szeth would probably be executed, under the law of Shinovar, Szeth is Truthless and so absolved of his deeds. The very idea of morals is that they're a sort of universal law that all of mankind is subject to. If Nalan believed in such a thing, he would be out there enforcing that "law" - instead, he allows mankind to choose for itself what is right. The real flaw in Nalan's philosophy is that his justice is selective. Of course, it wouldn't make sense for him to be prosecuting every petty criminal, but the fact that he allows himself to choose when to enforce laws undermines the powers of the laws themselves. That is, unless I'm on the wrong track, and Skybreakers don't actually consider themselves enforcers of the laws, but rather entities also bound by them. That would allow for the Skybreakers to be free in pursuing their own goals, while respecting the laws of man as absolute. But of course, that seems ridiculous, considering how the Skybreakers and Highspren, from what we know, both seem to be pretty proactive when it comes to justice. I agree. This has been bothering me. The Honorblades must have some sort of increased capacity when in the hands of a Herald. In fact, perhaps it's been implied by the time we heard Syl talk about how wielding an Honorblade required a dangerous amount of stormlight for a human to hold. Szeth was an assassin, presumably trained from very early on. His prowess seemed incredible - he handles honor gaurds and multiple shardbearers simultaneously with ease, and appears to be an incredibly skilled surgebinder. Yet Kaladin, with just three oaths learned, after having spent one day flying freely, and after having only just acquired a Radiant's shardblade, handles Szeth with very little difficulty. That suggests that either honorblades are very underwhelming, or, when in the hands of a Herald, who presumably can hold/use much more stormlight than a normal radiant, honorblades are a weapon of exponentially increased power. On a side note, I'm clearly new and it's hard to gauge when I'm just stating things that are obvious or when I'm saying things that everyone is already aware of. If that's happening now, my bad.

3 - I think he got stabbed right below the neck - but I agree, that was a little too magick-y. I still appreciated the "Szeth died and was reborn" theme, though. As a side note, I'm not too pleased with the fact that all of the important characters who died ended up being, well, not-dead. I don't think we need any GoT level butchery, but the lack of permanence when it comes to character deaths has so far been disappointing. 4 - I thought the placement was appropriate. As mentioned by the user kari-no-sugata earlier in this thread, it shows that the orders progress differently - Windrunners clearly learn additional oaths in times of need (I imagine we'll see Kaladin powering up a few more times down the road as he learns more oaths), but for Lightweavers, Truths seem to be a far more personal thing. I also enjoyed it because just when I thought Shallan's mostly figured out and WoR was winding down, we get what really is major plot reveal. It didn't really make sense why Shallan was quite so guilt-wracked and why her father never beat her until that moment.

Since Taln might very well have been forced to bear the accumulated burdens of the 9 Heralds who did not return to Damnation, he might not be feeling so forgiving when he returns to sanity. Considering that the Heralds did abandon their burden, they are clearly not flawless. I wouldn't be surprised if Taln decides to seek vengeance, so maybe the "Taln becomes Dustbringer" theory isn't unreasonable. The Renarin book should be interesting. It's clear that his "blood weakness" is related to his powers as a Truthwatcher, and his ability to see the future is at extreme odds with the Vorinism's hatred of foretelling the future (probably the reason for why he refused to join the Ardentia, even at the urging of his family). It seems he curses and fears his ability, so I see a lot of potential for internal conflict in the chapters we get from his point of view.