TheBrian

Actually... Yeah, it sorta does. Considering how much he trained, and that he'd been recovering for weeks from his injuries, if he had natural talent, he should have been able to pull off a few simple practice moves, maybe not perfectly, but without actually dropping his weapon. He wasn't out of practice, or exhausted, and he didn't act simply rusty, he was clumsy and uncoordinated. If he were a natural, even without supernatural skill, he should have been something between "Kaladin Stormblessed" and the spaz we see him as, weak leg or no.

Regardless. Even if he were a natural, the point is that a ton of evidence from the books tells us his skill is supernaturally augmented. And it's heavily implied that this is from the Nahel bond. However, then Mr. Sanderson flat out told us it was not. So now I'm confused.

 

I think Brandon was using Kaladin's clumsiness to show his internal conflict.  The way I understood his failure to perform basic maneuvers was that Kaladin had a ton of crap in his head.  He wasn't in the zone / his head wasn't in the game.  He was wrestling with himself:  his moral code vs his sense of justice.  People in real life perform poorly on just about any task when they are working through an issue.

 

And remember that just after he lost Syl, he managed to kill a Chasmfiend with only a little assistance from Shallan.  Based on this fact, I think you have to accept that his clumsiness had nothing to do with his inherent level of skill.

I am saying that the protagonists will require armies (which they have) in order to win the Desolation. I think that a few thousand Radiants, solo, against the Desolation would lose. My logic is essentially that the Radiants didn't make Desolations a cakewalk, so the reason humanity won previous Desolations was because millions of humans were willing to fight the Voidbringers.

 

Because of this, I think that Taravangian and the other "amoral" types could "win" the Desolation. I also think the main Radiants could win the Desolation. The Radiants are nice and useful, they're special, but they're not 100% required. I don't care who ends up winning against the Desolation, only that someone does. This isn't a competition. We could discuss the options for which faction has the best chances of winning in another thread if you want.

 

I feel that people place entirely too much emphasis on the Radiants. "Without the Radiants, everyone is doomed!" is just something I don't think is true. They got by in previous Desolations without them.

 

OK, I think these statements are a bit genre blind.  This is epic fantasy.  Written by Brandon Sanderson.  The magic users will be essential to saving the day, and 99.9% of SA readers wouldn't have it any other way.

Most real world societies are ruled by Oligarchies, because (in addition to nepotism) people with the most resources are able to give their children the best education and have social connections to help them out early in their careers.

 

Keeping that in mind, try thinking things through from the point of view of a spren looking for a human to bond with.  Obviously, you need someone compatible with the attribute of honor you represent.  But beyond that, what makes a good fit?  Someone trained in war, maybe, considering the desolation is coming?  Someone with connections to existing Knights so that everyone can work together as a team instead of as individuals scattered across the continent?  Someone already in a position of leadership, so that no time needs to be wasted building an army?

 

The Kholin family is a gold mine for spren looking to make Knights.  They are respected leaders trained in war and actually adhere to a code of conduct (unlike the other nobles).  The spren aren't choosing at random, so it isn't realistic for us to expect new Knights to be random.

I may be misremembering, but what makes you think Szeth has murder on his mind? He abhors killing. Nalan is the only one who mentions killing the leaders of the Shin.

 

Szeth used to abhor killing.  His time in service to Taravingian changed him.  He used to weep while he killed, but at the end of WoR, he decided to kill Adolin "on his own time".  Szeth is broken and bitter over being used and lied to.  The only honor he held onto was keeping his oath.  And now he's been informed by no less than a Herald of the Almighty that his oath is done.  I think Szeth will exact his revenge from the Shin leaders who forced the oath on him - and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

I think there is potential for romantic relationships between Knights and their Spren, though zero chance for the consummation of these relationships (and that is all the further I will go on that topic).  Syl, Pattern, Wyndle, and Ivory have all expressed distressed when their Knight has been in danger.  The Spren get something from their partners, but I don't think this makes the relationship strictly professional.  Their oaths give them shared goals and their bond is an intimate connection of minds.  Indeed, the bond may let human concepts of romance to bleed through into the Spren.

 

Should any of the Knight-Spren relationships veer into romantic territory, though, I predict it will be more complication and less happily-ever-after.  A Spren could never give a human everything they wanted, but they could prevent a human from pursuing more fulfilling relationships.

First, interesting theory!  I never considered that Rlain/Shen might become one of Kaladin's squires.  I don't actually know what is required to be a squire, but my own theory on the matter is that someone needs to have a subordinate relationship to the Radiant and live the ideals of the order.  I don't know that anything is required on the part of the Radiant, but I could be wrong.  After all, healing with stormlight happens based on self perception.

 

I disagree that we know that a Parshendi can't become a Radiant.  Their natural relationship with spren is different as they seem to absorb the things into themselves, and from the epigraphs we know that spren prefer humans to Parshendi, but that doesn't seem strong enough proof for me to accept that it is impossible.

kadolin, on 11 Aug 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

Perhaps more of huge rechargeable stormlight battery that stores it more efficiently and in larger quantity to supply the city, possibly being charged during highstorms.

 

Also Lift could convert food to stormlight. Food which are not of shard power I believe. Even though the limit to the conversion she can do is unknown, it is interesting to consider the implications.

 

Yeah.  Lift is puzzling.  My completely unsupported guesses are that there is investiture in the food or she uses food as a catalyst to draw investiture from somewhere.  It has built limitations based on it being only what one person can eat. 

 

I believe there is a WoB that Stormlight makes plants grow.  So it seems likely there would be some Investment retained in the naturally grown food.  And the soulcast food probably has some as well from its creation, though if I had to guess, I would say it probably retains less Stormlight than natural food.  Which would be why Lift prefers rich people's food, because they don't typically eat soulcast food.

It's my understanding of the Spren that they aren't really sentient in the physical realm unless they form a Nahel bond with a human.

 

This explains why only those Spren bonded to a Radiant speak.  Per Pattern, the Spren lack something that they can only get from humans.  This also matches with what the Listener epigraph reveals about Spren abandoning them to join with humans instead.  I believe that most, if not all, of what makes Spren into people instead of semi-conscious representations of natural force comes from the humans.

 

So fabrials would be less like enslaving a person and more yoking an ox to a plow.  "Killing" a conscious Spren and then using its sword-shaped corpse would be much more like slavery.

I don't have my copy of WoR with me, but I think there is an epigraph quote about one of the Heralds putting restrictions on the Knights Radiant.  I interpreted this (perhaps incorrectly) to mean that the Herald who had been the template for the Bondsmith order imposed the restriction of forcing the bonded human/spren to make and hold to oaths on pain of "death".  I think the specific oaths were selected to reflect the intent (right word?) of the particular spren type of each order.

 

I could see Dalinar doing some Bond-smithing on Nightblood to temper the blade a bit.  Maybe ingrain some rules about restraint or something.  OK, I'm going to post this now so everyone can tell me I'm crazy....

Nightblood is perfect for a Skybreaker....  Which is why someone from a rational KR order needs to get Nightblood away from them.  Someone needs to restrain the bloodthirsty sword.  Of everyone we have seen so far, I think Dalinar would be least likely to misuse such power - similar to how Vasher kept it in check in Warbreaker.  Nightblood is the perfect weapon for killing Knights.  I would not trust Nale or Szeth with the thing.

Shallan winds up with Stick.  It's obvious if you read the text at a deeper level.  Trying to convince Stick to be fire was a metaphor for romance.  But their relationship can't move forward until Shallan speaks her final truth - that she loves Stick more than Adolin or Kaladin.  It's really quite obvious once you see it.

This is something I have been pondering for a while.  

 

1. As a returned, Zahel/Vasher/Warbreaker has the ability to heal someone in a major way.
2. He is on Roshar, where serious stuff is happening and such healing might be necessary.
3. Knights Radiant don't need divine breath to heal themselves, just a little stormlight.
4. The Regrowth Surge seems to make this major healing ability superfluous for others... 

So what does everyone think?  Will Zahel use his breath to heal someone?

 

Possible uses:

• Heal a "dead" spren - possibly Adolin's blade
• Undo a curse from the Nightwatcher - e.g. fix Dalinar's memory or Taravingian's empathy
• Restore sanity to a Herald - Jezrien or Taln
• Give a huge power boost to Nightblood (crazy idea: could type 4 awakened objects be made using divine breath instead of normal breath?)

 

 

 

So, my understanding of things is that, as a result of the Recreance, the spren took the form of Shardblades because the Nahel bond was an attempt by the spren to recreate the Heralds; since the Heralds had the Honorblades, that meant the Spren's 'default' form would be Shardblades.

 

From your quote, it sounds like you think the Knights Radiant began after the Recreance.  I think the actual timeline is this:

1. The Heralds originally fought in the Desolations almost solo, with their only assistance being from normal soldiers.
2. Spren figured out how to bond with humans and give them similar abilities to the Heralds.
3. Someone (Nahel?) changed the nature of the bond so that swearing oaths was necessary, as a control on the Knight's power.
4. Lots of Desolations happen with KR backing up the Heralds.
5. The Heralds cannot bear their punishment and so give up, telling everyone that they had won.
6. The Knights Radiant carry on, but without the Heralds to lead them their conflicting views on honor (as reflected in their oaths) cause serious problems, including wars with Radiants on each side.  Eventually, the Knights get trapped like Kaladin was when he was simultaneously sworn to protect Elhokar and keep the secret of a conspiracy against Elhokar's life.  So the Knights do the least dishonorable thing and walk away, killing their spren in the process.  This act becomes known as the Recreance.

On a reread of WoR, I found something very interesting.  When Szeth confronts Taravangian after meeting Kaladin, we see that one of the Honorblades is unaccounted for:

 

 

     "No, no," Taravangian said.  "I have learned this only recently.  Yes, it makes sense now.  One of the Honorblades has vanished."

     Szeth blinked, and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place.  "One of the other seven?"

 

-Words of Radiance, Interlude 14 (Taravangian), page 912 hardback

 

 

     Kalak watched Jezrien depart across the burned landscape.  Finally, he summoned his own Blade and slammed it into the stone beside the other eight.  He turned and walked in the direction opposite from Jezrien.

     And yet, he could not help glancing back at the ring of swords and the single open spot.  The place where the tenth sword should have gone.

 

-The Way of Kings, Prelude, page 18

 

One of the Honorblades is with Taln (in Damnation or somewhere in Roshar, whatever is really happening there), but the other 9 should be together, minus the one Szeth is using.  So why is it "one of the other seven"????  Did one of the Heralds take back his/her Honorblade before the stone shamans found the blades?  Or is some other party in possession of it?

 

It seems most likely that Nale has his Honorblade hidden away somewhere:

1. For some reason, Nale dislikes the stone shamans enough to send Szeth after them.  Them having the Honorblades seems like it could be a big deal to him.
2. Nale is obviously using a normal shard blade during his pursuit of Lift.  Otherwise, it would have been a much shorter chase if he had the powers of the skybreakers at his command.
3. We know that Nale is a letter of the law kind of guy, so I don't think he would ever use the Honorblade after Jezrien said not to.  But that doesn't mean he is going to let common people get their hands on the blade that is his responsibility.

However, an argument could be made for any of the other Heralds (except Jezrien, since Szeth has that blade, and Taln, because you know...) returning to reclaim their blade before the stone shamans made their discovery.

 

It doesn't make sense for someone to find a cache of magic swords and only take one.  Witness the insanity at Feverstone keep over the less powerful shard blades.

 

Anyway, there is definitely an Honorblade missing from the collection.  The question is, who has it?

GreyPilgrim, I like the idea of honorblades having Intents, but the one Szeth carried (which the power of Windrunners is modeled after) let him murder people instead of protecting them, so their Intents don't match up with the KR Ideals.  I hope to read your theory on this soon.

 

maxal, I agree that it would be backsliding if Dalinar went to war again.  But if he was using Nightblood against charging Thunderclasts to protect a city, I think that would be in line with where he is as a character.

 

And I never thought of the Stormfather becoming a gigantic shardblade...  Honestly, I think that might be cooler than using Nightblood.

Hello everyone, I am a longtime lurker, first time poster, and I have a theory that I have not seen on here before.  I don't have a ton of evidence to back it up, this is mostly based on the rule of cool.

 

[spoiler]

My theory is that Dalinar will eventually become in possession of Nightblood.  We know that after bonding the Stormfather, Dalinar is a Knight without a shardblade.  Not only does the Stormfather refuse to come when called, but the bond makes it impossible for Dalinar to effectively use a conventional (dead) shardblade.  However, there is conveniently a magic sword floating around Roshar.  Sure, it is in the possession of the world's deadliest assassin, who just took a job with the world's deadliest vigilante, but there are 8 books remaining and a lot could happen.

 

I know this is pure speculation, but just picture Dalinar facing down Voidbringers with Nightblood in his hand.  The Blackthorn deserves to have the baddest blade in the Cosmere.  And Nightblood could finally get down to business and destroy some real evil.

[/spoiler]