Kasimir
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...I swear this is the most awkward thing someone has done with the thread yet, but Great Lord, could you pop into the doc for a bit? I have some conjectures I'd like to run by you before I air them :/ Edit: I have also been asked to convey that Jae had been previously confirmed to be a noble. Ashette, you have now been requested to hit Hyrun. (Apparently, I've not been kept in the loop either...)
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I need to head off to sleep, and we only get 24 hours at the moment, so: The plan for the Coinshots I was asked to convey from the rest of 'the Chain' involves asking the surviving Coinshots to target two people each. A Coinshot can't kill, but can injure, so they strongly favour the idea of at least crippling those likely to be skaa by forcing them to give up one action through injury. In addition, this would allow us, in a small way, to track and to at least make sure that we know how the Coinshots are actually operating, given worries that the skaa have a Coinshot too. There is some reason to stack a Coinshot and a skaa kill together, for one, because that would make for 3 points of damage: that is guaranteed to take down a Pewterarm in one hit, and has a 50-50 chance of killing a Mistborn burning atium. In addition, it also has a 50-50 chance of cutting right through Lurcher protection. (Again, if one endorses Gamma's Three Role Theory...) Specifically, they would like to request that Asyr hit Mailu, and Ashette hit Jae. Given that Mesist being a Coinshot is new information (also really, 4 Coinshots? A bit much, anyone?), I'll see if they would like to suggest he be doing anything in particular. I'm not so inclined to think he is one, because like 1 Seeker in the game, having 4 Coinshots seems just...odd, but if he isn't a Coinshot, that tells us someone, at least, has been throwing in a Lie. Possibly the Loyal Terrisman at work, too.
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...I'm sorry, Jain. So on the bright side, the role distributions laid out in my doc makes more sense now. 1 Seeker in this entire game was rather unbelievable and I'd come to suspect someone was lying. Pity it was just the making of a false assumption :/ As for what happened, my current conclusion looks something like this: [Working Assumption]: Jain was Rioted by Tonul. Tonul changed Jain's vote to Hadrian. We have separate testimony from both Tonul and Meta that Tonul Rioted Jain. As I've said before, I believe that given it was Day Two, Tonul had no incentive to lie, and this is further backed by the fact he turned out--under the lynch--to be noble. Case 1: Tulir Riots Jain to Hadrian, Maili or myself are Rioted to Ash, and Racine is Soothed. = Active Rioters (Tulir, QC(?)), Unknown Active Soother. Case 2: Tulir Riots Jain to Hadrian, Racine is Rioted to Ash, and Maili or myself are Soothed. =Active Rioters (Tulir, ?), Unknown Active Soother. Case 3: Tulir Riots Jain to Hadrian, Jain is Soothed, Racine is Rioted to Ash.=Active Rioters (Tulir, ?), Unknown Active Soother. As far as I see, there aren't any other possibilities, although I definitely could have missed something out. The more I look at this, the more I think Case 1 is the most likely, especially if Jae is telling the truth about not having used Zinc yet (excluding today; Fien was Rioted, it seems.) QC had reason to Riot a vote away from Hadrian, pre-emptively protecting her House member in case of Emotional Allomancy. Tonul himself did the same to protect Ash, after all. Things I'd like to keep track of: 1. I'd still like some word from Aonar if he can shed any light on the Emotional Allomancy going on. 2. I'd also like to hear from Jae, if he Rioted Fien today. 3. Hyrun mentioned --- is a Coinshot. I don't see what the point of concealing it is, as we have two Coinshots out of the closet, and the last is dead. But more relevantly, he mentioned he was wounded. So, my question: Ash, Asyr. Who did it?
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Ordnung muss sein.
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Fair enough, I hope there are no hard feelings. I'm just very big about King's rules
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Luckat: I clarified the issue with Wyrm. A Mistborn who starts the game having Copper/Bronze for the day does not begin with a Coppercloud up. So the only conclusion, given Tonul's testimony (I believe that since he was proven noble and should have had no reason to lie about that at that point in the game), is that Jain is a Smoker.
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Even so, the votes on Day Four are very illuminating. I agree with Gamma that from analysis of the Day Four votes (ten; TelZaan participated), it is clear that the kandra has (with a high degree of certitude but not infallibly) to belong to House Tuy or House Seeris, because most of the people participating in that vote frankly could not (by the rules set out by King) have a kandra. Next point: House powers cannot fall into skaa hands by a night kill. Only a noble night kill transfers powers from the last member of a House to the House of the killer. For lynches, the power is assigned randomly. It looks like Hyrun won't be pulled out of trying to avoid attention by a single vote right now. I'm going to swap my vote to Jain. As the player who has apparently become the spokesperson of 'the Chain' stretching from the Genie to myself, I have been asked to air this strategic suggestion: Jain. The idea is this: Seeris has Improved Weaponry. There's no point in concealing it now, as Jain has kindly pasted the PM from Ren. With Improved Weaponry, a skaa kill can kill a Thug and crunch through a Lurcher's defense. As such, making sure that we retain control of Improved Weaponry--insuring that it is not buffing a skaa--is pretty important. With this mess about who TelZaan belongs to, this becomes an even more muddied issue. In addition, I have three other considerations: I believe we cannot afford a no-lynch at this point in the game, and I think Gamma has a point with his Three Roles Theory. The current roles we know there exist three of are: 1. Coinshots, 2. Tineyes, 3. Rioters, 4. Smokers. (Relevant to this situation as Jain is a Smoker, due to Tonul's testimony of having tried to Riot Jain on Day One.) There is a suggestion for what to do about the Coinshots, and I'll air it by the Night Turn--there's just too little time at the moment. Last, I just hope this will clear up the mud surrounding TelZaan.
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The rules say that a kandra cannot devour the bones of someone lynched/gone to the Inquisitors. This is why we don't have access to the bones of Racine or Newan. It has nothing to do with the thesis that the kandra's owner might or might not be skaa. For all we know, they could be, but this line of reasoning won't get us there. Ash can't have the kandra as he's in a Lesser House with Tulir. Lesser Houses have only two members.
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Aonar: My first question is if you've factored in the fact that people could've received the information that Ren is a Tineye on Night Two. In the rules, King specifically states that, "All information is added to the pool at the same time and then information is drawn out afterwards for all players at the same time." Which essentially means that Ren's being a Tineye was information anyone who happened to be looking at Ren on Night Two could've accessed. Of course, since Informant reports get back on Day Three, you were probably cognisant of that, but I thought a clarification might nonetheless be in order. Second, Newan had no Informant reports that I know of. He was extremely inactive within our doc; he would occasionally pop in (perhaps once every two full cycles or so) to say something and then head out again. The most we'd had from him was a conversation lasting approximately five sentences. (This, however, does not preclude him entering the doc while we were offline and reading what was going on.) So I cannot say if he had or hadn't gone to the Informant. A perhaps somewhat unconnected incident on Day Four had been noted by Ren as I was in a different tab: someone anonymous (presumably Newan) had come in and accused him (Ren) of being skaa in an unused colour, and then swiftly deleted the message again. On an unrelated note, Hyrun hasn't really weighed in for a while now, and I believe he's mentioned that he's gotten back. I'd like to hear from him, and I believe I've seen him checking this page earlier.
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See, Asyr, here's the problem: last I checked, Sylinia was pretty inactive in-thread too. (It might be different in-doc, perhaps.) And while this doesn't say anything one way or another, I do note that up to the point we removed Newan, your House and mine were the two (s)GHs enjoying our unscathed status. I do not believe this to be an accident; I recognise, however, that this is mere conjecture. Indeed, Urbain was long overdue to get hit, in any case. More relevantly to the issue at hand, I believe I can be of a little more assistance in clarifying the timeline. Please note that this is what I have obtained from our discussions in our doc; it may be the case that some of this has been somewhat off due to fog-of-war. Night One: Ren contacted no one. The truth he submitted to the Informant was that he was a member of House Urbain. Night Two: Ren contacted no one. The truth he submitted to the Informant was his metal. Night Three: Ren contacted the Contact. [Note that he spun this as having been approached rather than approaching someone, until Newan was removed from our doc.] I do not know what truth he submitted to the Informant (I may have to recheck the doc) and it isn't relevant to the discussion anyway, so I can leave a gap there for now. Night Four: Ren contacted Jain. Again, I do not know what truth he submitted to the Informant. Ren dies. (You will be avenged, Tinawesome.) Your period of interest, Asyr, would start from Night Two onwards. There were two different opportunities for Newan [=Wandrin] to have become cognisant of Ren being a Tineye and to have conveyed that information to the other skaa. As for everyone else, I can't rightly gauge this. My current problem is that Ren's death doesn't entirely fit with your picture of the skaa killing the biggest threats. I'd say that Coinshots are probably bigger threats than Tineyes. So are Lurchers. In the same way, I imagine they'd probably like to take down Mistborn.
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Aonar: I have no idea what you're driving at, I'm sorry >> This is what I can reveal: Ren contacted people on only two nights out of four. The first, he referred to as Spook II and then as the Contact. He was going to reveal the identity of his mysterious Contact but then died. The second I do know of, because this was the result of a slightly more open discussion in the doc. He contacted Jain, on the night of his death (i.e. Night 4.) I am not sure what to make of Asyr, and I'm not particularly able to make sense of how he ends up implicated in Ren's death. Edit: Just to clarify the timeline a bit more explicitly, Ren did not contact anyone on Night 1 or on Night 2. He contacted his Contact on Night 3, and Jain on Night 4.
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"Keep Fathvell," Kassel muttered, studying the invitation. "I've heard the Lord Fathvell is away on a trip," said Drax, lounging on an armchair with his booted feet resting on the edge of Kassel's desk. Kassel glanced up. "Kindly remove your feet," he said, sharply. "Really, Drax, I swear I've been trying to break you of that deplorable habit since...I can't even remember." He broke off in a short burst of coughing again, and sneezed into his handkerchief. "Make me," Drax said, his tone very much bored, but he did so, nonetheless. "You're definitely sick. Are you sure it wasn't the steel? It most certainly didn't agree with me. I've given Dorran a piece of my mind." Kassel said, "Drax, I can't burn steel." That was Allomancy; Kassel thought, as binary as the most classical of logic systems. It was one metal or all eight, if you'd any at all. "Even so," Drax said. "How d'you know it wasn't from your metal?" "I think," Kassel said dryly, "I am very--" he sneezed into his handkerchief again, and sighed. "--very certain that one doesn't get a cold from improperly-alloyed metal, whatever it is." He said, "Are you sure you can't go to that rusting Fathvell ball on my behalf?" "Take it up with your uncle," Drax said. "I was rather disappointed to discover that metal poisoning differs from getting drunk--pewter just doesn't help with headaches as much as it does with a good hangover." Kassel sighed as he stared at the small glass bowl on the table, and its unappetising amber contents. The house skaa had brought the medication in early tonight. He walked over to it. Drink deep, he told himself, and he held his breath as he downed the bitter liquid. "Best hope you have nothing else to do tonight, little brother," Drax said. "I, meanwhile, have many things to do. Places to visit, people to scare, and to awe into silence with my gloriousness." Kassel just rolled his eyes. "Stay alert. Don't get carried away, Drax. There are still skaa out there." Drax said, and for the first time, Kassel saw a strange darkness in his older bastard half-brother's eyes. Drax said, "I know."
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Female Villains in Epic Fantasy (General Spoilers)
Kasimir replied to Mistdork's topic in General Discussion
Having read most of the discussion in this thread, there's something I've wondered with regard to the latest tangent. Maybe it would be more instructive to ask two questions: 1. What are the conditions required for there to be a militaristic society that is matriarchal, or at least women-dominated in nature? 2. What would a matriarchal/women-dominated militaristic society look like? The two questions overlap a bit but are, of course, slightly different. For one, it doesn't seem strictly necessary to me (in the sense of strict logical necessity) that the (on average, which means a lot less than we think it does) greater physical strength of men makes them better soldiers. A quick example: imagine a militaristic society whether soldiers are basically fused to some sort of implanted power-armour. But here's the problem: the power-armour reacts badly beyond a certain threshold-level of testosterone. I would imagine that in such a case, you could have a militaristic society (imagine, perhaps, that the technological edge provided by the power-armour allows the society to project power. It is, in fact, the basis of their hegemony. It's possible to have that be the founding development of a matriarchy, I imagine, with all sorts of traditions and stuff coming onward from that. Physical strength has, in essence, become irrelevant. This is an extreme example of how to answer 2. based on technology as the deciding factor, but my point, and perhaps, a relevant question to ask, is why we seem impelled to insist upon paradigms of war that require both optimisation (strength is good therefore all-strong is better) and a focus on strength. It may very well be the case that we have good reason to do so. But I think interrogating this and discovering underlying assumptions we have been clinging to would be instructive in this regard. -
...So...I guess I won't have to be submitting myself to a lynch (for this reason) after all, (at least)? >> Kassel was pretty sure the only reason he was still absently making notes was to hide the trembling of his hands. "I think," he said, aloud, to no one in particular, "That, was way too much excitement for me." A burst of coughing broke up whatever else he was about to say; he wished he'd taken the bitter extract but that made him drowsy, even as much as it eased the coughs. That wouldn't do; not when he had to attend Lord Gardre's ball and to make it home to Keep Erikell. When it had passed, Kassel muttered, "I hate being sick. And I hate gambles."
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Ren: There are two cases I'd like a ruling on, please. Case 1: X sends a message to Y. Z, V, and K have all used a Reverse Lashing on Y. I'm wondering if all three of them get X's message, and how it is determined which of them gets X's message otherwise. Case 2: X, V, and K have all sent messages to Y (wow, this guy's one popular fellow!) Z uses a Reverse Lashing on Y. Whose message does he get?
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Good point, Luckat. I'd forgotten about that. Most likely with Seeris, then, as was my initial assumption. Alright, folks, time to put all my cards on the table as I'd prefer to give people enough time to assess the information as compared to my initial hope of catching Wandrin in a trap. The Informant told me Wandrin is a Soother. This is why I'd appreciate Aonar mentioning if he was actually behind the Day One Soothe, as it would seem rather disingenuous if Wandrin had time to mess with the votes but not to catch up with the goings-on in-thread. More importantly, I have been contacted--through a Tineye I will name Spook--by someone who claims to have access to Genealogy. This person, the Genealogist (Genie, for short) has scanned Wandrin last night and says that Wandrin is skaa. Now, I'm going to lay out these things to consider: 1. I stand by what I earlier said. I am curious to know if Wandrin has been using his Soothing despite inactivity. 2. I know the identities of Spook and the Genie. If the lynch reveals that Wandrin is innocent, I will surrender myself, Spook, and the Genie for lynching. In fact, a Housemate has already separately deduced who Spook is, so this is further insurance against my potential skaa-ness. 3. Wandrin is also my Housemate. (Not the above-mentioned one.) Therefore, for anyone who is still thinking about it in terms of House, I'm basically turning on a Housemate and pushing him forward for the lynch. That's very much not in my House's interests, but it's in the nobles' interests. 4. I think that a Bartbug the Seeker is better pulled off in clearing people who are actually skaa, rather than declaring a noble skaa as that is easily discovered the next day. Nonetheless, it is possible, perhaps, that the skaa have decided to go for a 2-for-1 offer, although I don't see the point in doing so, as they pretty much started the game with a person down on Day Two, thanks to Ren.
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Pardon, this is the current Running Tally I have: Jae (1): Ren Wandrin (3): Hadrian, Mesist, Kas Jain (3): Asyr, Jain, TelZaan Ash (1): Fien A quick explanation of the updated tally: if we take Gamma's word that his House does not have a kandra, and we know that Elariel has only three people (QC, Araris, Luckat), then the natural conclusion if we are to assume that TelZaan isn't in a Lesser House would be that he is with either House Tuy or Seeris. In either case, therefore, someone is bringing a +1 to the vote on Jain. Make of it what you will.
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There are two issues I'd like to table for discussion: 1. I think it is quite likely that Coinshot activity is/was implicated in Sylinia's death. A skaa kill alone would not be sufficient, unless Sylinia was hit by a Blanket Soothe and was unable to burn Pewter. Moreover, if we assume that Sylinia had been injured by a Coinshot prior to this night, we must then ask if we think Sylinia had been burning pewter consistently (probably yes. And if Sylinia has been consistently burning pewter, then it is, perhaps, possible that an unreported injury has come about from attacking her.) Too many unknowns at this stage, but we have, perhaps, a very rough picture laid out. To add to the puzzle, Asyr and Ash, our two public Coinshots have both claimed they did not hit Sylinia. That being said, it could, of course, be the action of a Mistborn. But I think there's another problem with this. 2. Soother activity. I assume Aonar had no reason to Soothe Racine as she was his Housemate, but I would like to hear from Aonar himself that he wasn't responsible for the Day One Soothe. (I apologise if you have indeed done so, Aonar--I may have missed it out while going over the thread.) We know, as well, that Racine is no Rioter. Tonul has claimed that while he Rioted Jain on Day One to save Ash, his Housemate, and that he did not Riot anyone on Day Two. I think we have prima facie reason to believe him, as the lynch has proven him to be a noble. Jae, our other publicly-advertised Rioter, has not voted until Day Three, which means he couldn't have been responsible for Emotional Allomancy, assuming we believe him to be truthful about being a Rioter. (I see no immediate reason to believe this is not the case.) There have been no more vote shenanigans from Day Three onward. So how do we make sense of this? Either we have another Soother--other than Aonar--playing with the votes, or we postulate a Mistborn having received Zinc/Brass on both Day One and Day Two. A slight alternative is that we postulate a second Mistborn, who received Zinc/Brass on at least one day. Neither of these are impossible. But this, then, threatens to complexify any solution to the Coinshot puzzle. One element in favour of the One/Two Mistborn Theory, is that it doesn't require us to explain why the Soother should suddenly go dormant after Day One and Two. They simply did not receive the correct metals. But at the same time, I've gotten somewhat interesting information from the Informant. I apologise, Wandrin. All the same, I'd like to know what you make of this. More importantly, I'd like to know what you've been doing over the past nights. Current state of the votes: Jae (1): Ren Wandrin (3): Hadrian, Mesist, Kas Jain (2): Asyr, Jain Ash (1): Fien
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Point of order: If Cat had destroyed her House powers on Night 2, the rules state that Hadrian would've received a PM about that fact (but not what the power was), and unless both Hadrian and Cat are skaa, it would kind of defeat the point as he'd yell her out in thread yesterday (Day Three). Kassel coughed into his pocket handkerchief, and winced as he saw traces of blood. Scraped my own throat raw, he thought. The ache was a distant one.
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Just to check in: I haven't actually died or something, even if I'm coughing a bit of blood, so while I am somewhat unhappy (no longer miserable!) I am alive and will be contributing once again. So see you on the other side of the rollover!
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Simir is a short man who carries the nightsoil buckets from the houses each morning. It doesn't pay well, but it's a job. He says little; mostly because you don't want to be saying very much at all when you're covered in latrine muck and stinking. He copes with his job by not caring after years and years of carrying waste buckets, taking occasional baths, and carrying a pouch of fragrant herbs with him. Incidentally, he has a thriving herb garden. At times, Simir has been known to undertake odd jobs for Wurum. He's not a physically intimidating enforcer, but most people tend to back down when a waste-slathered man is up and in your face. Well, in your chest, as it turns out.
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Alright, guys. I'm just back from a uni department event, exhausted, and I have a 37.9 degree celcius fever, which is probably not a big deal, but I'm feeling miserable. I don't want to be making a hasty decision in this state so I'm going to pop some meds and see the doctor first thing tomorrow morning. I may or may not be able to make it on in time to place a vote, and I cannot make any promises. But my current perspective is that if I make a vote, I want to be making one where I'm thinking and endorsing the arguments placed forward about someone's likely skaa-ness, and a Kas on meds is not a Kas who is in a good position to do that. Just thought I'd check in to say that :/
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Araris, you could be right, but I'd be interested to know why the skaa would prefer to leave the House Lord of Seeris in place for now. One possibility you've missed and that I somewhat suspect is that we're going back to known-quantity*-kills. It could be just that Shiv is storming scary, and the skaa decided to remove him prematurely from the playing field. The problem with that theory is it just doesn't really fit with QC's kill on Night One, in that QC hasn't done something particularly...traumatising for people who would be around to remember. Looking at who they voted for or fingered is similarly unhelpful, because while Shiv mentioned the case for Racine didn't look good, he went for Meta on Day One, for possibly-unknown reasons. (I'm reading it as RP but not certain.) QC hasn't really been what you'd call vocal about suspicions either. *known-quantity = killing of experienced players. I decided to swap the term a little because it's not as if new players are any less dangerous--just that likely if strategising as skaa, you'd prefer to remove the known dangers first while assessing the threat level posed by the unknown.
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As we've mostly sorted out what went on with the Informant action, (tangentially relevant to Aonar's mention of Tulir) I'm curious about the business with the vote on Araris. Tulir/Tonul's mentioned that he's laid off on the Rioting this time. Aonar mentioned he didn't Soothe Tonul. I'm just trying to place if it was skaa Soother action, or someone who was Soothing along House lines, like the business with Ash on Day One.
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"So," Drax said, as they trudged through the mist-laden night, "You're not attending Lord Urbain's after-party." "I'm tired," Kassel said. "A party's too much effort." Drax whistled. "A party's too much effort, you say?" He'd managed to strip off his suit jacket, and to push up the sleeves of his shirt to the elbows. "Really?" Kassel shrugged. "Ever planned one of those? I planned a party once. It was awful." "The party or the planning?" Kassel fixed him with an annoyed stare. "Both," he said, grudgingly. They trudged on in silence for a while; those were the times, Kassel thought, when it was safer on foot with a Mistborn than in a carriage. Her carriage hadn't saved Lady Elariel, and he'd heard about the Terrisman. And Lady Morinthe a skaa sympathiser--he'd never even thought... A clip shot through the air, prodded him in the chest. Kassel almost froze, a hand going to it. If Drax had increased the strength of his Allomantic push, Kassel knew, the coin would've shot right through him, and he wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. The clip fell into Kassel's open hand. "Clip for your thoughts," Drax said. The mists swept in around them, embracing them; they seemed like a living creature, tendrils of mist twining about Drax and less closely about Kassel. Kassel said, slowly, "Do you ever wonder--are we the good guys, do you think?" Drax shrugged. "I brought this skaa in for questioning once," he said, "But accidentally coinshot him in the face. It was sad." "Exactly," Kassel whispered. For some reason, the sight stuck with him still: the old lady being wheeled out by Inquisitors. It was...logical, he had thought, then. And now he found himself staring into the greatest of horrors: a deep pit; a black, mist-wreathed maw, that defied all comprehension and all reason. Reason had failed him. He felt...nothing, at the thought. He tucked the clip into his suit pocket. "Shall we?" he said aloud. He tapped bronze--just a little wakefulness, he thought. Instantly, he became more alert; the exhaustion weighing heavily on him vanished. But nothing else did.
