Pathfinder

Riiiiiite, yeah wasn't thinking about that part, forgot the overlap. Well still stands true, though numerically different lol.

Although I like the sound of this theory, I do not fully buy it. It opens up a lot of confusing situations, and problems. But I respect your belief in it, and hope you are right.

Touche, though the residue on it should have burned Vin's fingers when she took it out.

It is a difficult line to find between which gets healed and which does not. For example:

It was hinted at that the true danger is the longer term plans that the Set has, which implied to me was the breeding program. So it wasn't ignored or forgotten, just that Sequence and Suit were pushing for a more immediate result by using the Southern Scadrialians technology instead of waiting on the breeding program. At least that is what I got out of it.

Yeah but people can have multiple nicknames, and it was commented due to steel inquisitors, it wasn't exactly a well liked or often used nickname.

Riiiiiight, I remember the hares! Wasn't there an expression or word they used all the time? Storms, I am blanking on it right now.

TenSoon holds Vin's vials in his body without it breaking down, so I would assume a Kandra could form the necessary parts without any acid coming into the picture.....

There is a WoB that a knight radiant could bond multiple spren though it would be very difficult to keep all the oaths balanced without breaking one and "killing" the spren. And that is just with two spren, nonetheless ten. The other option is a knight radiant could theoretically grab and bond the other 9 honorblades and thereby have access to all the surges. But the likelihood of us ever actually seeing that happening is very doubtful (watch that ends up happening just to spite me lol).

he is along similar lines of the lion, the witch and the wardrobe. he writes young adult fantasy, with anthropomorphized beings ranging from foxes, to mice, to badgers and bunnies. It is in a medieval setting, and if i recall correctly there is no direct magic though there is a hereafter and a sense of a deity. Though it has literally been ages since I read one.

Here is every quote that mentioned the eleventh metal in chronological order page 78: "In the north, they have a legend," kelsier said "It teaches that the Lord Ruler isn't immortal-not completely. They say he can be killed with the right metal. The Eleventh Metal. That Metal." page 78: "The Lord Ruler has suppressed it," Kelsier said "But it can still be found, if you know where to look. Allomantic theory teaches of ten metals: the eight basic metals, and the two high metals. There is another one, however, unknown to most. One far more powerful, even, than the other ten." ........... Yeden however, appeared intrigued. "And, this metal can somehow kill the Lord Ruler?" Kelsier nodded. "It's his weakness. The Steel Ministry wants you to believe that he's immortal, but even he can be killed-by an Allomancer burning this." Ham reached out, picking up the thin bar of metal. "Where did you get it?" "In the North," Kelsier said "In a land near the Far Peninsula, a land where people still remember what their old kingdom was called in the days before the Ascension." "How does it work" Breeze said. "I 'm not sure," Kelsier said frankly. "But I intend to find out" So at this stage Kelsier does not know how the metal works. Further down this post will be the quote that shows he has not burned the metal yet page 114 "Kelsier smiled. "I'm still planning to deal with him personally-I just have to figure out how to make the Eleventh Metal work." page 139 "The Lord Ruler will stop you," Vin said "You can't beat him-he's immortal" "We have the Eleventh Metal," Kelsier said "We'll find a way to kill him." page 172 Kelsier glanced down at the small whitish bar in his hand. The Eleventh Metal. he knew the rumors about it- he'd started them. Now, he just had to make good on them page175 Breeze cleared his throat "I've...been hearing a lot of rumors on the streets, Kelsier" he said "The people are talking about this Eleventh Metal of yours." "Good" Kelsier said "Aren't you worried that the Lord Ruler will hear? If he has forewarning of what you're going to do, it will be much more difficult to.....resist him." Kelsier just smiled "Don't worry about the Lord Ruler-I've got things under control. In fact, I intend to pay the Lord Ruler a personal visit sometime during the next few days." page 205 He might trust her; he might not. However, he certainly had secrets. The Eleventh Metal, and therefore the Lord Ruler, were involved in those secrets. page 210 "Why do we need to worry about that?" Vin asked "You have the Eleventh Metal to defeat him, right?" Kelsier frowned slightly. Vin waited for an answer, but he didn't ever give one Kindle edition page 222 Kelsier nodded "I s earch ed for two years to find a way to kill him. Men have tried everything-he ignores normal wounds, and decapitation only annoys him. A group fo soldiers burned down his inn during one of the early wars. The Lord Ruler walked out as barely more than a skeleton, then healed in a matter of seconds. Only the stories of the Eleventh metal offered any hope. But I can't make it work! That's why I had to go back to the palace" (i copied pasted this, and it won't let me unbold the part already bolded) page 272 "But the skaa seem convinced about this rumor of an Elevnth Metal. Have you heard of it, informant?" "Ah, yes," Kelsier said, covering his shock. "A legend, my lord." "One I've never heard of," Venture said. "And I pay very close attention to such things. This is no legend. Someone very clever is manipulating the skaa." page 273 "It seems that the general skaa have gotten wind of the Eleventh Metal," he continued. "Some of the nobility have heard the building rumors, and the more intelligent ones are growing worried." page 281 Not all of them were discussing Kelsier, but a surprising number were. She also heard a number of references to the "Eleventh Metal" page 288 "I know" Marsh said "It started with that Eleventh Metal scheme of his. I don't know that we have to worry-this is just Kell playing his usual games" page 303 Kelsier thrust his hand into the air, holding aloft a tiny bar of metal. "You've heard of this, haven't you? You know the rumors of the Eleventh Metal? Well, I have it- and I will use it. The Lord Ruler will die!" page 337 "We need to talk about that by the way, Kell" Dockson said, frowning "I'm not sure if I like all this mysticism about you and the Eleventh Metal." page 340 "I'm concerned about him too" Ham said "This Eleventh Metal business...it's almost like he's making himself out to be some kind of holy man" page 374 "Don't worry about the Lord Ruler" Kelsier said "The Eleventh Metal will take care of him" The Eleventh Metal, she thought, remembering the skepticism with which the other crew members regarded it. "Is it real?" Vin asked. "The Eleventh Metal? Of course it is-I showed it to you, rememeber?" That's not what I mean," she said "Are the legends real? Are you lying?" Kelsier turned toward her, frowning slightly. Then he smirked. "You're a very blunt girl, Vin" "I know" Kelsier's smile deepended "The answer is no. I'm not lying. The legends are real, though it took some time for me to find them." "And that bit of metal you showed us really is the Eleventh Metal?" "I think so," Kelsier said. "But you don't know how to use it" Kelsier paused, then shook his head "No. I don't" page 375 "The Eleventh Metal. Couldn't we just try it and see what it does?" "It's not that simple." Kelsier said "You remember how I told you never to burn a metal that wasn't one of the ten?" Vin nodded "Burning another metal can be deadly," Kelsier said "Even getting the wrong mixture in an alloy metal can make you sick. If I'm wrong about the Eleventh Metal...." "It will kill you," Vin said quietyly. Kelsier nodded. So, you're not quite as certain as you pretend, she decided. Otherwise, you'd have tried it by now. "That's what you want to find in the logbook" Vin said "A clue about how to use the Eleventh Metal" So there it is shown he has not burned it yet, is unsure about it, and referred to it as a metal other than the known ten. If it was just an alloy he was referring to, he would just be concerned about getting sick, but Vin confirms he is worried he will die from burning it. and now here is the rest of the quotes. My wrists are hurting so I hope you all appreciate this page 404 "if it is of any comfort" Sazed said "you are not the only one who is disappointed by the logbook's contents. It didn't contain much that Master Kelsier coud use-certainly, there was nothing about the Eleventh Metal. I feel somewhat guilty, since I am the one who benefited most from the book." page 461 "Have you ever heard about this Eleventh Metal legend that Kelsier talks about?" Sazed paused "No, Mistress. That legend was new to me when I heard of it from Master Kelsier." "But he swears that it's true" Vin said "And I....believe him, for some reason" "It is very possible that there are legends I haven't heard of" Sazed said "If the keepers knew everything, then why would we need to keep searching?" page 476 "This is it, Vin" Dockson said, awed. "This is what he's been waiting for. A chance to face the Lord Ruler-a chance to prove those legends of his." Vin turned back to the square. The carriage rolled to a stop. "But..." she said quietly "The Eleventh Metal. Did he bring it?" "He must have" page 479 "What of your plans? What of the Eleventh Metal? What of me?" page 490 It was followed by a small bar of metal wrapped in a sheet of paper. The Eleventh Metal. Vin unwrapped the paper. I could never figure out how this blasted metal was supposed to work. It's safe to burn-it won't kill you- but it doesn't appear to do anything useful. if you're reading this, then I failed to figure out how to use it when I faced the Lord Ruler. I don't think it matters. The people needed something to believe in, and this was the only way to give it to them. page 490 "It..says that he doesn't know how the Eleventh Metal works. he's sorry-he wasn't certain how to defeat the Lord Ruler" page 491 she said, taking a file from the box and scraping off a few flakes of the Eleventh Metal. She paused-eyeing the unfamiliar, silvery metal- then swallowed the flakes with a gulp from her flask.She put a couple more flakes in one of her backup metal vials page 496 And then, she remembered it. The Eleventh Metal, its power sitting within her, forming an unfamiliar reserve. She looked up, glaring at the old man. This had better work. She burned the Eleventh metal. Nothing happening. Vin struggled in frustration, her heart sinking. And then she saw him. Another man, standing right beside the Lord Ruler. Where had he come from? She hadn't seen him enter page 496 The Eleventh Metal burned out. Both newcomers vanished like ghosts. page 500 Did I presume to succeed where Kelsier had failed? He knew that the Eleventh metal was useless.It had done smoething, true-but it certainly hadn't killed the Lord Ruler. She sat, thinking, trying to figure out what had happened. There had been an odd familiarity about the things the Eleventh Metal had shown her. Not because of the way the visions had appeared, but because of the way Vin had felt when burning the metal. Gold. The moment when I burned the Eleventh Metal felt like that time when Kelsier had me burn gold. Could it be that the Eleventh Metal wasn't really eleventh at all? Gold and atium had always seemed oddly paired to Vin. All of the other metals came in pairs that were similar-a base metal, then its alloy, each doing opposite things. Iron Pulled, steel Pushed. Zinc Pulled, brass Pushed. It made sense. All except for atium and gold. What if the Eleventh Metal was really an alloy of atium or of gold? It would mean.....that gold and atium aren't paired. They do two different things. Similar, but different. They're like.... Like the other metals, which were grouped into larger bases of four. There were the physical metals: iron, steel, tin, and pewter. The mental metals: bronze, copper, zinc and brass. And.... there were the time affecting metals: gold and its alloy, and atium and its alloy. That means there's another metal. One that hasn't been discovered-probably because atium and gold are too valuable to forge into different alloys.But what good was the knowledge? her Eleventh Metal was probably just a paired opposite of gold-the metal Kelsier had told her was the most uesless of them all. Gold had shown Vin herself-or, at least, a different version of her that had felt real enough to touch. But, it had simply been a vision of what she could have become, had the past been different. The Eleventh Metal had done something similar: Instead of showing Vin's own past, it had shown her similar images from other people page 516 "I have to try" she said "The Eleventh Metal worked, Saze. I saw....something. Kelsier was convinced it would provide the secret" page 518 Kelsier believed that the Eleventh Metal was the key she thought page 519 Vin burned the Eleventh Metal. The Lord Ruler's past self appeared as it had before, forming as if out of mist to stand on the dais beside the throne. page 521 It had been a clever idea, far more clever than Vin's foolish attempt with the Eleventh Metal- however it had proven equally faulty. page 523 She reached within, feeling her last little bit of Eleventh Metal reserve. She burned it, looking through tearstained eyes as the Lord Ruler held Marsh in a one handed grip page 535 She was, in a way, like one of the shadow images created by the Eleventh Metal. Incorporeal. Really just something that could have been. So there. Every single quote from the eleventh metal. Every answer to every question. I rest my case.

I could look up quotes but I do recall Vin saying as enemy allomancers got away from her, the pulses got weaker, so that does sound like an radius of effect to me.

See I knew you would find a way to ignore the quotes, but I still posted them. I must be a masochist for continuing to bash my head against the wall. Do I even bother posting quotes that show Kelsier was confused about the metal even before burning it himself? Do I even bother to show quotes where Kelsier only ever refers to it as the 11th metal and not once by malatium or its component parts? I could quote every single mention of the words eleventh metal, and it still would not matter. I have responses to what you wrote, but it reaches a point where there is no meaningful dialogue. Just repetition. So I am good, I am washing my hands of all of this. I give up

Whether you think copper is better than bronze or not is immaterial as I have stated three times now. It is whether Kelsier thinks malatium's ability would be useful. I have quotes now right from the book, but I have a feeling it won't matter to you anyway, but here they are: Kindle edition page 222 Kelsier nodded "I searched for two years to find a way to kill him. Men have tried everything-he ignores normal wounds, and decapitation only annoys him. A group fo soldiers burned down his inn during one of the early wars. The Lord Ruler walked out as barely more than a skeleton, then healed in a matter of seconds. Only the stories of the Eleventh metal offered any hope. But I can't make it work! That's why I had to go back to the palace" kindle edition page 374 Kelsier's smile deepened. "The answer is no. I'm not lying. The legends are real, though it took some time for me to find them." "And that bit of metal you showed us really is the Eleventh Metal?" Vin said. "I think so," Kelsier said. "But you don't know how to use it." Vin said. Kelsier paused, then shook his head. "No, I don't" "That is not very comforting." Vin said. kindle edition page 490 "I could never figure out how this blasted metal was supposed to work. It's safe to burn-it won't kill you- but it doesn't appear to do anything useful. if you're reading this, then I failed to figure out how to use it when I faced the Lord Ruler." The quotes show that he isn't even sure if what he has even is the 11th metal. They also show he used it and felt it was useless because it didn't seem to do anything that he expected it to.

Again, that is your interpretation. The rules are specifically mentioned in the book, is shown by multiple characters and the Ars Arcanum at the end. Also the very first character to explain it this way is Kelsier himself, who is the exact individual we are discussing his understanding of. Kelsier knows and understands these rules, and it is his interpretation we are discussing. At this point I am just repeating myself, and is pointless for me to continue this.

There is WoB where he states Wayne's skills are purely practiced and nothing magical about them.

We have WoB that the Southern Scadrials are the result of the Lord Ruler having a back up plan to his genetic experiments on the northerners. If what he did to the Notherners didn't work out, he would still have the Southerners to compare to.

Again, the books clearly state this is not true. Pewter pushes your body beyond what it is capable of. Tin pulls in sensory information. Both deal with the physical and both are internal metals. Pewter causes you to ignore pain, tin causes you to feel it a hundred fold. If we did not know what tin does, it can be reasoned it has to deal with the physical and how the body performs as its compliment pewter does. It is literally spelled out in the book the rules of allomancy. For every push there is a pull, for internal there is external. Kelsier says it for himself. Sanderson created allomancy to be a magic system that can be studied and expanded upon in the scientific manner and there are WoB on that.

Lol I think the opposite. If i am trying to take out 15 people, and I ally myself with one of those 15 to help take the others out, it is now 2 against 14. Subtract 2 that we take out by working together leaves us 12 shards to still fight. I betray honor, leaves 12 shards I now have to fight 1 against 12. If however I wait, then the odds are still 2 to 12. This gives me added strength to reduce the opposing number to a more manageable amount till ideally either only honor remains, for the cinematic backstab, or the opposing force is reduced significantly enough that I would be able to manage them alone. To still have 75 percent left active and ready to fight you, and only you when you could have still had an ally, is strategically unsound. Add to the fact of Hamorny scaring Odium because he is two shards combined. If Honor and Odium had been working together, he is sure as crem kicking himself now by leaving himself outclassed when had he not backstabbed honor, he would be on level with Harmony. And that is not counting theories about autonomy. If Odium is in fact working with him, then he would have had nothing to fear from Harmony because there would have been three shards to Harmony's two. It just doesn't make sense when you have resources to accomplish a goal, to destroy those resources so early unless there is a compelling reason, or ability to further that goal without those resources. That's standard Sun Tzu logistics.

Could it be that over the course of the three books so far, Wayne has gotten progressively more screen and dialogue time? And when I state that I mean extended conversation with multiple characters to which he is not already well acquainted with. Marasi is new, and Steris he despises, so spending extended time with each is going to compel a different level of interaction from him. Just my two cents

Again, the point I understood that Yata made (correct me if I am wrong), is that the reason Kelsier felt malatium was useful was because he did not know it was an alloy of gold and atium. That had he known it was an alloy of gold and atium, he would have reasoned that it would either create images showing his own future (he did not know what electrum was at that time) or images of the enemy's past. Given how he acted in the books, it shows he expected the metal to act like a physical weapon (whether that meant making TLR go boom, depowering TLR or super charging Kelsier). Showing your own future would be just a counter to atium, and seeing someone else's past just gives you information about the individual. Neither provide a means for you to stand in front of TLR, burn the metal, and win. Just because atium is powerful by letting you see another's future, does not change how it functions. It functions by seeing images of another person's future, so its alloy will mimic this . Especially when the other metal it is alloyed with does the same thing but in reverse (past instead of future). You can feel it is useful all you want, the question is would Kelsier with that piece of information think it was. Based on how we see Kelsier act in the book, the laws regarding allomancy, and how everything plays out, I feel that is confirmation that Kelsier did not know malatium was an alloy of gold.

you mean cremlings

Given that the skeleton is just a frame to build around, at least in my opinion I do not see why they would not be able to. Imagine a kandra that ate the corpse of a chasmfiend.........

Usefulness is subjective. Vin was impressed by Spook's ability with tin, and his reason for feeling useless with tin was in comparison to mistborn who had all the abilities. Straff is a tin misting, and he used it extensively in a myriad of very effective ways. But even then, the point Yata made was that had Kelsier known it was an alloy of gold, then Kelsier would have viewed it as useless. The ability malatium exhibited makes perfect sense given the rule regarding allomancy's push and pull, and due to its sources (gold makes you see your own past, atium makes you see someone else's future), by extension malatium would either let you see your own future, or someone else's past. Kelsier is looking for a weapon to kill the Lord Ruler. One that he can stand in front of the Lord Ruler, burn it and the Lord Ruler dies. This is confirmed in a way that I cannot mention in this thread given the current spoiler rules. Even saying that might be skirting them, so if so I apologize. My point is, the way Kelsier spoke of it, and implied how he intended to use it, spoke of an ability he expected to be physical or direct. Not at all in line with the ability we are presented with. Based on the information he had, had he known malatium was an alloy of gold, he would have been able to reason the effect, and based on the information we have, would not have confronted the lord ruler the way he did.

Prior to the Wax and Wayne series and Stormlight, when Sanderson would release a book, it was in chronological order, so Warbreaker was released after the original mistborn trilogy. There is also this nifty site for chronological order: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Chronology