kaellok

We know that Honor, Cultivation, and humans arrived on Roshar before Odium and the Desolations. I'm not entirely aware of when Odium left to do a bit of Shard-slaughter, but I've always felt that it was prior to his arrival. The Oathpact seems to me to be Honor's way of trapping Odium in the Roshar system, to protect other Shards from his hate. Although the Oathpact does not involve Odium in any way, it is all about him. I also think that to form the Oathpact, Heralds bonded with Honor himself--hence Honorblades. (I'm also of the school of thought that Bondsmiths all bonded with the Stormfather. As it is possible for each Radiant to bond to multiple spren, I think that at least some spren are capable of bonding to multiple humans.) I have toyed with the thought of the New Radiants (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, etc.) becoming the New Heralds, but Honor would have to be reformed/reforged for that to happen. Interestingly enough, Splintering a Shard is not permanent--and I've been hoping to see Honor reformed since basically the time I realized he was dead (I may have picked up on this sooner than Dalinar, but I had the advantage of knowing I was reading a book, and looking for twists and plot-paths). Relevant WoB:

Honestly, if they're going to make any kind of movie, TV, or animated series based off of the Stormlight Archive, I want them to wait. GoT is running into the problem of not having enough published material, and so they will be faced with a choice that is bad. They can either: 1. Stop shooting new episodes, until next book is published--possibly 2-3 years from now. Very high risk of losing fans of the show in favor of whatever "oooh, shiny!" comes along to distract them. 2. Invent new story all on their own, so that there will be two GoT storylines--one that is based off of the books, and one "inspired" by the books. Wait, at the very least, until Book 4 is released before making any adaptation, please. (And this is quite above and beyond the truly astronomical cost required to do true justice to the books, as others have mentioned.)

Soulcasting everything to snow/ice, or crystal--is there really such a big difference between the two?

I have nothing to add to this discussion. However, the following two quotes made me laugh for an inordinate amount of time: (Emphasis mine, on the part that is so hilarious. Preceding kept for some bit of context, so people don't think that Tempus goes around on a punching rampage anytime someone says the word "Hemalurgy." Although that, too, is causing me a fit of the late-night God-I-wish-I-wasn't-at-work giggles.)

There were more sex scenes in the first 6 chapters of Clash of Kings (okay, you got me, I'm possibly exaggerating because I'm lazy) than in all of Sanderson's books combined.

I didn't realize that there would be confusion over this. If you haven't finished reading WoK yet, do so. If you're still confused or missed something, then read Topomouse's explanation. This issue is explicitly answered in-text. Since in-text is not completely reliable, it is not a fool-proof answer, and prone to being wrong--however, any alternative theorizing will have a much harder job to explain a few things. WoR spoilers:

God, that Rysn one is awesome. I mean, the others are find and good and all, but it's in such a class of its own the others pale in comparison (in my very unhumble opinion )

Actually, we don't know for sure that Adonalsium was Shattered by an outside force.

This.

@KiManiak -- You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding my arguments at a very, very basic level. I'm not trying to shut off discussion of your theory. A "debate" has two sides, usually (sometimes more, never fewer). These are usually broken down into those "in favor" (such as yourself, OP, Black Yeti) and those "against" (such as myself). Just because I think your theory is wrong does not mean that I'm automatically dismissing any/all speculation of this subject. I was going to respond to each and every one of your points, but then I realized that I was just far too annoyed by your entire post, and how it seemed to ignore the conversations Moogle and I had last night, to actually post. Instead, let me focus on why I think this theory is wrong. Clearly, as I acknowledged before, I was wrong about my Ruin/Preservation argument draining Intent. However, look at the rest of this first quote-block. Splinters are bits of power that have gained self-awareness on their own. It's not said that Adonalsium broke off pieces of its own awareness to create them, only power--and that power later gained self-awareness. My theory is that that self-awareness is based off of the 'parent,' so that Splinters of Odium would be related to Odium (for instance, one specific aspect) just like the Shards are one specific aspect of Adonalsium. This is directly counter to the theory that many in this thread posit, and is an alternative conclusion that can be drawn based on the evidence. As you've specifically mentioned, the Intents of the Shards are rather large, complex things. It seems likely that if they had mixed in different ways, we'd have different Shardic Intents. After all, bits of Honor mixed with Hate (well, sub-attributes...like you said, complex) could have produced the Batman Shard as one single entity (rather than the mixing of Honor and Odium to create it, similar to how Harmony was created from two). There's not much else here directly, but it seems an important baseline when discussing Shards of Adonalsium to have an understanding that things could have gone differently than they did--even if that's not the way it happened this time. Here, though, we get an interesting bit--Adonalsium was definitely shattered on purpose. Without knowing more about the reasons why or how, what more we can glean is limited. However, again, it seems an important baseline that is tangentially important to this topic. I still don't have a good counter-argument to Moogle's explanation. I'm still floating around with something similar to "The more Investiture some being holds, the larger and more complex their Intent. At certain levels of Investiture, this Intent can become more or less complex." The key difference here, though, is that as I've been arguing all along, Investiture is the key and is primary--Intent is largely secondary or incidental in comparison.

Well, you've presented me with a more detailed counter-theory for how it could work and remain within what we know. I had thought of something similar, but not nearly so well laid-out. My personal explanation is that at some point there is enough loss of Investiture that causes a collapse in the being overall--with the very big problems of this being a really weak argument and not actually supported by any text or WoB. Let me think about this more, when I'm more coherent. And, speaking of being tired, you're absolutely right about my argument with Ruin and Preservation--they siphoned off Investiture, not Intent, so it's not appropriate. Wasn't an intentional straw-man argument (and you didn't call it as such, but re-reading it that's what it seems to me now), just me trying to be smart while tired lol.

Yeah, I don't see this happening. I mean, him reasoning through anything. All we've seen in two books is him specifically not reasoning. That might change, sure, but seems more of something that happens over the course of the entire book--and it didn't seem like he was going to be wasting time on his journey to Shin. After all, he's got murder on his mind.

Wait...you're saying that Stormlight can heal Souldeath, but not Renarin's blood weakness? Really hoping you're wrong about that WoB, because that's just...weird haha. It seems very likely to me that it wouldn't because it's so much a part of how Renarin sees himself, as kreeble said above.

I am specifically saying that a splinter's existence does not lessen the Intent of, for example, Honor. Honor was exactly as Honorable before and after Syl. However, Honor was weaker after Syl formed (assuming she's a Splinter of Honor and not the Stormfather). This is because while Investiture decreases from the 'parent' after each Splintering, the 'parent's' Intent does not. I realize that the OP, as well as at least a few others, believe the exact opposite--but I have not seen any WoB or textual reference to make this case. Ruin was no less ruinous, even with the vast portion of his power separated. Preservation did not become less Preservation-y over the same period of time, despite having sacrificed chunks of itself permanently to bring life to humans. We've only seen the tiniest, smallest bits of Shards in-book, so it's possible OP is correct. However, what we have actually seen does not support the theory. Part of the problem is that it is not merely difficult, but flat-out impossible, to accurately measure an Intent's quality or attribute. As we know and understand it, it's impossible to have, for example, 13 kilojigowatts of Honor, or 17 decijoules of Preservation. The best we can do is rough comparisons, with many people disagreeing on what actually is or is not of Honor or Preservation or anything else. Because Intents are a quality that is impossible to be accurately measured, it seems logical to me that the theory is false precisely because it requires some such measurement be possible. Each Splinter is, obviously and textually, limited in Intent based on what it split off of. Honor itself is limited in comparison to Adonalsium, and Syl is limited compared to Honor.

Yes, "wet" is a very simple concept, and not as complex as a true Intent. I thought about explaining that this was by no means an exact analogy, but decided not to because the post was already long. The basic point remains, though: we have seen zero evidence in text or from WoB that something Invested with Intent sees the Intent lessening as it splinters. Investiture is power, and can increase or decrease. The attributes of this power do not seem to change. The attribute is not what is being broken off and separated; Investiture is.

If Lirin moved, it was likely well before now. Kaladin has basically done nothing that we are aware of to keep track of his parents since Tien died. It's been more than one or two years since then. It's definitely true that Kaladin finding out they aren't there would be anticlimactic for both Kaladin, and us as the readers. However, a more interesting way to play with the idea of his parents moving would be for Kaladin to find them in an entirely different area than he expected. Say that he gets to Kholinar before Hearthstone, and then runs into his parents--the reactions he has will be substantially different than if he has had enough time, that day, to mentally prepare himself. There's nothing like a shock or surprise like that to throw you off your game and reveal things that you would otherwise keep secret. I fully expect that Kaladin will meet with his parents, or visit their graves, in Book 3, regardless of anything else that is happening, or where they might be. Edited for clarity

Sure, the idea of it? I'll buy that. But the Diagram itself? Nope.

I realize that the conversation has moved on from this, but I just can't get over it. I disagree with you, completely. In the beginning of WoK, Szeth doesn't want to kill; we see that, through his PoV, quite clearly. However, even by the end, his attitude has changed. He is mad at the king of Jah Keved for being so inept at killing him, for laying an ambush with so many innocents around, etc He absolutely, truly wants to kill the king by the end of that scene. Too, using Nightblood to stop people that will cause a lot of killing is going to be to kill them. We've seen Nightblood's power used; it kills. It doesn't stop people in any other way. Szeth is not going to the Stone Shamanate in Shin to have talks with them; he was given Nightblood to counter their Honorblades. The very, very heavy implication is that Szeth is going there to kill them all. And it's going to be awesome.

Because I'm a fan of pedantic arguments, I accept your challenge! You know, the one you didn't offer. The quote says 'two dead men.' Not 'two dead males.' An accepted definition of 'man' is 'person;' and, in sci-fi or fantasy settings, more specifically as human. The plural of man is men, and you get 'two dead humans/people.' And that's how Shallan is, obviously, a man.

The Diagram is Mr. T, not Cultivation. Even if we assume that the expanded brainpower is of Cultivation (which I do), the Diagram is still of Mr. T and not Cultivation. Let's use an example to clarify: Bob is worried about his own safety, and the safety of his family and his neighbors. So, he forms a Neighborhood Watch and goes to a smithy and buys a bunch of bows, crossbows, swords, pikes, and other weapons. He and the Neighborhood Watch then set about killing literally every one else on the planet with these weapons. This plan is of Bob, not necessarily the blacksmith. The smith may have enabled the plan, and might even be in on it, but we have no evidence to suggest this is the case; we just have Bob's crazy idea. That said, I do absolutely think that Mr. T thinks the way you ascribed to Cultivation; he is more than happy to sacrifice some so that humanity can survive (just so long as he's not one of the ones being sacrificed--he seems content to face judgment and punishment after the fact, but not before. That's a rather different conversation, tho.) As to Honor and Cultivation:

Edited your post to add a point 3 (that seemed implied) so it's easier for me to respond, deleted stuff I'm not touching. On your point 2: Specifically relating to what you have italicized, it is possible for Harmony to splinter into Ruin and Preservation, but not guaranteed. We can look to WoB regarding Adonalsium on this, to see that Adonalsium's Shattering could have resulted in entirely different Intents and Shards. The situation with Sazed/Harmony is not exactly analogous to Adonalsium (so far as we know it, Adonalsium was a whole, not pieces of a whole combined together), but I think it's close enough to safely draw the conclusion that the same result could apply to Harmony. Point 3: You seem to be making an argument that contains a few misconceptions. Honor, as an intent or quality, is something that can't really be measured. You can't say, "Hmm, yup; that's 432g of Honor right there." If you could, then your example would absolutely be correct, and taking away some bits of Honor or Protection would change how much there was. These Splinters would, however, almost certainly change the amount of power that is available to the Shard. The amount of power/Investiture is something that is observable/measurable, and I think that is where you are getting lines of thought crossed. Think of the Intents as observable qualities, but not measurable qualities. If we take the Shard of Oceans, then its Intent might be "wet." If we were to Splinter the Ocean, we might end up with billions of cups of water, or buckets, or even a lake or two. All of these smaller bodies of water would have a different amount of Power (the amount of water they hold), which is directly measurable. But, there isn't one of them that is "more wet" than the others. The ocean is wet; no matter how much water you take away from it, the ocean will still be wet. Depending on which body you are looking at, there will be substantially less water in any one place, some of the water will be saltier than other bits, each cup of water may be entirely different from the others--but they will all be wet. No matter how many Splinters of Honor there are, they will all be the same amount of "wet".

Right, Moogle. I tend to view it as the Oathpact is a prison, Odium is a prisoner, the Heralds are the doors to the prison, and a Desolation is a prison riot (it's not the prettiest picture I have ever used, but I haven't come up with a better one yet). And I totally agree about Honor's stupidity--when you're trying to save the world from literally ending (not just war, or famine, or end of humans/people, but end of entire world) the last thing you want to do is be vague in how to not die.

This is a possibility, but one that would have necessary difficulties to overcome that other theories don't. Things like, How did everyone survive, including Hoid? Planetary destruction is a pretty massive release of energy, on top of whatever caused the Adonalsium Shattering event that occurred. Based on what we know currently (so close to nothing as to be indistinguishable from it) my guess is that even were this the case, Braize was this planet. The planet seems to act in ways contrary to every other planet, and has some really weird, wobbly stuff regarding some of the WoB implications (which is easily just Brandon trolling us hard). I just feel that Adonalsium Shattering would go a long way to explaining this, and haven't seen any actual evidence to the contrary.

Humans on Earth have been labeling other humans devils, demons, pigs, rats, weasels, snakes, and far, far worse for literally thousands of years. This deliberate attempt to dehumanize your foes to make it easier to justify and rationalize killing them is fairly well known. IF there was fighting amongst humans, I would be surprised to not see this--especially if the fighting is particularly bad.

Side note: Odium is not a part of the Oathpact. WoB on the subject make it seem like it is between the Heralds and Honor. There is one that may imply the Radiants are also a part of the Oathpact. There is nothing that I have seen that suggests that Odium is. The confusion regarding this is when Honor speaks in one of Dalinar's visions, saying that there are certain rules that Odium may be bound by. However, the language used there always seemed to indicate to me that it's something that applies to all Shards/Shardholders, and thus not a part of the Oathpact at all.