Kurkistan

But Returneds' shapeshifting is all very firmly tied into Cognitive perceptions of how they're seen/see themselves; it seems that their age is a rather natural consequence of that broader image. Although I doubt it's been tested, I seriously doubt that a toddler pushed to the Fifth Heightening would become mentally mature in the space of a year [though that could be Forms rearing their ugly heads. I'm still not sure if I'm only one of four people who actually believe in them (and/or understand them) at this point, but I'll just keep going like they're a thing and I'm sure we'll all laugh about it in a decade or so]. -EDIT: When I started typing that second sentence, I thought Hopefinder physically aged very quickly, which is not the case. So it's kind of pointless. Oops. Carry on. It just seems to me that Returned are unique in their responsiveness to perception. As we discussed in the MEC thread, I think that's quite explicable in terms of the Cognitive nature of their Splinters, something which (I also argue) we don't see in any amount of normal Breaths. I think their ages changing are also a consequence of this same mechanism of responsiveness. When Lightsong muses about Returned's body types, he includes Allmother's age as one more variance within a range (320), and I think we ought to do the same. Aside: Looking at Warbreaker, it has come to my attention that Hopefinder (the child Returned) aged physically at a rate of 1 year per year, despite his mental maturation being much faster. He would have stopped growing at his "prime adulthood" (319-320, pdf). That could suggest odd things, though it could be Forms messing about. I'm not saying that it's impossible that normal people who reach the Fifth Heightening "age" like Returned do, just very unlikely, so we should not be unduly shackled by that possibility going forward. EDIT: You edited this in while I was composing my own reply: I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, unless you read my mind and anticipated my first paragraph. EDIT 2: Ah, I see. You want to be sure that I don't include the "change" of gradually "changing" to your appropriate age as a "body change" of the same type Returned experience. Okay. It is different. You still lose out a bit, though. At the moment of Returning, some older adult Returned revert to some perfect youthful version of themselves without needing to go all Benjamin Button--instantaneously, it seems. Vasher can instantaneously change between vagrant and deity. So it seems, in fact, that Returned with their Divine Breath have unique access to "instantaneous" transformation, while lowly peons who simply have large collections of normal Breath get stuck with their ""age gradually changing to the appropriate one'", under your model. Or perhaps they simply don't change at all. Dot dot dot.

But that's not enough reason to throw the whole package at anyone who gets the Fifth Heightening. Body-changing and the Royal Locks seem to be unique manifestations of Divine Breath (as we've discussed), and so it seems that such effects ought to be reserved as an effect of Splinters.

I believe that all that Leuthie was trying to establish was that Returned =/= Fifth Heightening. Perhaps being Returned encompasses all the benefits of the Fifth Heightening, but there are certainly some other attributes tacked on. The point is that the Returneds' control over their age (and appearance, for that matter) is not something we can assume is a result of reaching the Fifth Heightening.

Ah, I thought you were talking about crossover between two different systems, not "who's Kung fu is stronger?!" In this specific case, I think you're creating a very unnecessary (and false) dichotomy between the effects of atium Feruchemy and BioChromatic Immortality (totally just made that term up. Deal with it ). Summary: Atium Feruchemy takes your base, "real" age and then takes some proportionate amount of power to change it by X amount. The Fifth Heightening, so far as we know, locks your base at whatever level you are at when you reach the Breath threshhold. So it's not a case of "Age Changing" Vs. "Age Freezing", it's "Age Changing based on an unchanging base age", which is perfectly intelligible. Now it could theoretically be the case the reaching the Fifth Heightening is more restrictive than I am presenting it, and does indeed "lock you in" to some given age. I doubt it, though. First off, it just doesn't smell right, if we have to make a simple authorship-level choice on how the systems interact. Second, I don't think it's supportable once we get down to the level of modeling it. Presumably, someone who has reached the Fifth Heightening stops aging because they have enough spare Spiritual energy chilling about that it fights off their gradual decay, much like a lower level can protect you from disease. They have an excess of "life force", to use Brandon's term, and it's paying rent. But just like Breath isn't going to magically heal you from a sword in the gut (well, a Divine Breath will, but that's cheating), I don't think it should stop you from having your "youthfulness levels" tampered with. It's in the business of maintaining a balance against the normal course of nature, not fighting off tempests of magic. Presumably a Resealer should be able to Forge a Returned's body whole again, despite the massive amount of Investiture that goes into maintaining their "Immortal Greek God" bodies. I would say that the same should go with a Feruchemist being able to store or tap attributes, just based off a magically-augmented base level. Like a Feruchemist being able to store more (non-compounding-derived) Strength while burning Pewter: the "normal" they work off of is magically messed around with, but all the Feruchemist need worry about is the final result. EDIT: Found the source for that last claim, since it's been contested in the past. Storm you Phantom, you are reaching even into the past in order to be helpful!

Yeah, Returned are odd, and I don't think a "normal" Fifth Heightening allows body-control. @skaa First of all, I'm not sure where you're coming from with "whenever we encounter two opposite Realmatic effects interacting with each other, the more powerful one wins out." When have we encountered cancelling Realmatic effects? I think we should just settle with the initial idea of the Fifth Heightening freezing your "real" age.

I don't think dissension among the ranks necessarily means that no standard exists. Just as a quick example of how such a divide may occur in a world with an absolute standard to refer to, I give you Splinters of Devotion. Now we know that Splinters have their own Intents, which Intents some have theorized are some sub-category of their parent Shard's Intent. If this is the case, then Devotion might split into several different Intents: Love (of various types), faith, and loyalty all spring to mind as separate Intents that could resonably be slotted under "Devotion". But you also get obsession, jealousy, and zealotry. On a darker view, these also slot under Devotion. But you could have a real argument over which of these sub-Intents is really "of Devotion", is really a proper--if limited--expression of Devotion's full Intent. For Honor, then, you can get things like Loyalty, Integrity, Oathkeeping, various expressions of Chivalry, etc. You don't even really have to start coming up with antonyms to know that even "Lawful Good" can result in tragedy, let alone "Lawful Evil" or "Lawful Neutral". And so the debate. Also, I'm not sure from that quote that spren actually argue amongst themselves. While that's the first read of "dissention among them", Brandon could have just been speaking imprecisely and been referring to scholars. Either way, arguments can still reasonably be had.

Phantom, I hereby revoke your quoting privileges. It's unhealthy. For your own good, you must refrain from helpfully and accurately providing any references for at least the next 26 hours.

I agree with King that it would likely just lock TLR in at ~1000 years old, but I disagree that only a Nalthian could receive Breath. Hoid likely has some by now (as per "wouldn't you like to know" Brandon answers), and I think that "access" is already separated enough in that Scadrains don't have the natural ability to split off the Breath part of their souls.

Good on you for asking a non-Cosmere magic question. I'm sure Brandon gives his other magics a lot of thought, but we always ignore them.

Interesting. ... RAFO.

And so another Lurker is drawn in. Only 6 more, and we'll have enough souls fun to complete the ritual party!

*Perks up at mention of name* Here's the quote. I also had a tiny little thread on it.

While (as I said) I agree that it seems that Syl's battle with the deathspren mattered, it's not a 100% sure thing. It could be a futile or symbolic effort on her part.

Yes. No.

Nice thought, Leuthie.

I agree that spren, in the general case, almost certainly do not cause the effects they are associated with. Shinovar does fine by itself, men can be afraid while a limited number of fearspren only go to a few of them, fire, as a rule, does not require magical sprites in order to burn, etc. There are problematic cases though, such as Syl's "battle" with deathspren seeming to actually matter. This suggests the possibility that spren are everywhere on every world, but only visible on Roshar because of the nature of the planet and/or Shards and/or excess of Spiritual energy in the form of stormlight. I still say that spren don't cause something, though, due to the persuasiveness (if I may say so myself) of my own arguments about spren as reactive to human perceptions (which arguments have since been backed by various WoB's). It could be a bit of a feedback loop, I suppose, with belief in things such as Death empowering spren to have some effect on the world. Fundamentally, though, the effect has to exist before the spren can, even if the spren feed back into their cause after their creation. So spren don't exist everywhere, but where they do they sometimes exacerbate the phenomena they are associated with. Also, I suspect that only Windrunners get pseudo-windspren as their spren. Wind, wind, ya know. . .

Why dost thou torment me, cruel Phantom? Seeing the old quotes always tempts me toward my old ways. . .

I think it's said outright in the prelude that the Heralds chill about in Damnation between Desolations, popping back onto Roshar each time a new one begins. As for Nohadon founding the KR, I don't think we have WoB. We do know that his ideals, reflected in the book he wrote, were their inspiration, and that Urithru was founded after the KR's formation and before Nohadon's death (as per one of Jasnah's quotes and a story in the in-universe WoK, respectively), so that pretty much nails Nohadon down as at least a major figure in their formation. Either way, it does nail down the time frame of their founding, at least in some form of "organization of honorable surgebinders," as between Desolations. Also, hoser never said "'Nohadon founded the KR'"; he just said "The Radiants are formed and Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime." EDIT: I changed some content a minute or two after posting. Sorry for any inconvenience.

Thanks.

Ah, my mistake. Sorry. To rephrase: What's your source on Honor still being alive when the Heralds packed it in?

Manuscript version of a scene from upcoming book (acquired at great personal risk through ninja-like-behavior): "SG-12 The Dustbringers waited anxiously for the chevrons to engage gate to charge. Finally, the last chevron locked gem pulsed, and a surge of light, like a splash, shot out from the stargate Oathgate. They rushed through the gate, firing slashing at the Goa'uld's Yelig-nar's Jaffa Thundeclasts..."

A small tad of both. Gavilar was already acting odd before they encountered the Parshendi (though I suppose their appearance and the onset of his philosophizing could have simply had the same cause, rather than Gavilar causing the Parshendi to appear)--that was the reason they went on the hunt in the first place: Dalinar wanted to shake his brother out of his funk. The tad is from the Eshonai reading we got awhile back, with it's reference to Gavilar attempting (and succeeding in his attempt) to awaken the Parshendi gods, suggesting that he had a fairly active role in all of this.

That'll do, Nepene, that'll do. Though I don't particularly think Brandon needs to "ride on fame" in order to release a few hundred words for free on his website. Probably just more of a commemoration, or wanting to avoid any chance of affecting or looking like he's trying to affect the voting. I was going to guess the day after the WoK (2010) or Legion (2012) anniversary (August 31), but, yeah, Hugo.

Nice work, Skaa (the user, I'm not calling Peter a serf).

What's the source on Honor not being splintered before the Recreance? I've been trying to find one for awhile now, but the only one I recall is a RAFO. Ding ding ding ding, we have a winner. Gavilar was already all philosophical and stuff before the Parshendi showed up, so may have been messing around with Forces Best Not Tampered With and started the ball rolling on the apocalypse.