Originators

[Oudeis]

I'm wondering how many people survived the end of the World of Ash.

 

Just saw hard data that roughly 1/5 of the Originators were Terrisman.

 

 

That was rare in the population; though nearly a fifth of the Originators had been Terris, they weren't prone to marrying other ethnicities.

 

 

I think it's safe to say that statistically the next-best-thing to all of them were in the camp near the Pits of Hathsin. Anyone reading Hero of Ages who wants to keep an eye out for hard numbers on how many people exist there? Anyone think they've got a good idea of where to search the book for that info?

 

Alternatively, does anyone have a different idea of how to calculate the number of Originators?

[Bean]

As a side not, though 1/5 were terrismen, remember a number of them were eunuchs.  That limits how many of them would be having full blood Terris babies. Unless they did polygamy. Brandon is mormon so...

[Oudeis]

As a side not, though 1/5 were terrismen, remember a number of them were eunuchs.  That limits how many of them would be having full blood Terris babies. Unless they did polygamy. Brandon is mormon so...

 

That's fascinating, and yet has nothing to do with my question. Regardless of whether they were capable of producing offspring or not, we nevertheless know that 20% of Originators were Terrismen. If we can determine roughly how many Terrismen there were at that camp, we should be able to learn how many Originators there were. I'm just idly curious how close humankind came to being extinct on this planet.

[Satsuoni]

For what it is worth, here is the quote:

It was now the home of the Terris people.
There were few of them remaining. They had never been a very large population, and the coming of the mists and the difficult trek down to the Central Dominance had claimed many lives. There were, perhaps, forty thousand of them left. And a good many of the men were eunuchs, like Sazed.

Assuming that most of them survived, about 150000 people in all on the north side would be a good estimate.

(Edit:  I said most, not all, and I am not sure that eunuchs count as Originators)

Edited December 21, 2013 by Satsuoni

[cem]

The population of Elendel alone should be around 4,5-5 millions. That's a lot higher than Earth's population growth in the last 350 years. They must have been at it like bunnies.

[Satsuoni]

The population of Elendel alone should be around 4,5-5 millions. That's a lot higher than Earth's population growth in the last 350 years. They must have been at it like bunnies.

Hmm... Assuming, for simplicity, 300 years and 25 years per generation (till childbirth), we get 12 generations. Given that Wax said something about there being more people (or nearly as much) in Elendel as in the whole of Roughs, let's assume 20mil people in total. That gives, on the average... 1.5 child per parent *not* counting parents. If the parents are counted, and assuming 3 generations surviving (till 75), about 1.33 children per parent, so 2-3 children per family. Like bunnies, indeed.

[Ete'ni]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[Gamma Fiend]

Hmm... can't we take that Sazed also restored his own people?

I understand why he would be worshiped so reverently now

Edited December 21, 2013 by Gamma Fiend

[Oudeis]

Hmm... can't we take that Sazed also restored his own people?

 

That is both an excellent point, since we know he healed people expressly for purposes like perpetuation of the species, and also HA! mental image.

 

Hmm... Assuming, for simplicity, 300 years and 25 years per generation (till childbirth), we get 12 generations. Given that Wax said something about there being more people (or nearly as much) in Elendel as in the whole of Roughs, let's assume 20mil people in total. That gives, on the average... 1.5 child per parent *not* counting parents. If the parents are counted, and assuming 3 generations surviving (till 75), about 1.33 children per parent, so 2-3 children per family. Like bunnies, indeed.

 

1. If the population of Elendel is 5 million and that's roughly half the world, why are we assuming 20 million total? Wouldn't that be 10 million living people total?

 

2. Actually 16 generations.

 

It was time to be Lord Waxillium Ladrian, Sixteenth High Lord of House Ladrian, residing in the Fourth Octant of Elendel City.

 

Though you're right, surely there was the occasional Lord who died/abdicated and thus we'd have more than one Lord per generation a time or two, but in only 16 iterations I propose that wouldn't have happened all that often. I feel like there'd've been at least 13 or 14 generations. Also look, the magic number.

 

Still, your math is quite impressive. Did you factor in mortality rates, or simple bachelorhood? I suppose that's counted in the average... in a world like this, where people still clearly die from causes we in our world would consider "preventable," the amount of children per couple that actually has children is likely quite a bit higher than the simple average.

[cem]

1. If the population of Elendel is 5 million and that's roughly half the world, why are we assuming 20 million total? Wouldn't that be 10 million living people total?

Because there are lots of cities in the Elendel Basin. None of them will be as crowded as Elendel itself, but they will still have lots of people. If anything, 20 millions is a conservative number.

[Satsuoni]

1. If the population of Elendel is 5 million and that's roughly half the world, why are we assuming 20 million total? Wouldn't that be 10 million living people total?

 

2. Actually 16 generations.

 

 1. Upper bound estimate. I also assumed that there were places besides Roughs and Elendel (Roughs contain somewhat less people than Elendel, IIRC, but there *are* other cities on the map, though, presumably, smaller. )

2. How so? Assuming 300 years, 25 years per generation? (Granted, not exact estimates). If you mean the fact that Wax was 16-th... see the point about upper bound (on the number of children). It is actually normal to have children before 25th year, so actual number would be higher, yes. About 2.6 surviving children without counting parents, then. On the average (people tended to have more children before. How many did Spook have?)

Mortality is not included (they would need to have that many *surviving* children). Bachelorhood is covered by average.

I have no idea about survival rates, but the original field (don't remember the name) was specifically modified for  better survivability.

[WeiryWriter]

Hmm... can't we take that Sazed also restored his own people?

 

If he did, I really hope he asked permission first.  Otherwise that is such an invasion on a person's "identitiy/personal space/whathaveyou".  It just feels super sketchy to me.  Those men were eunuchs from birth (or close to it) and it has to be a significant part of how they view themselves, and to change that without their permission is just plan wrong.

Edited December 21, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Ete'ni]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[Oudeis]

Those men were eunuchs from birth (or close to it) and it has to be a significant part of how they view themselves, and to change that without their permission is just plan wrong.

Well, we've got the precedent of, Rashek asked his buddies before Mistwraithing them, so he might've. Yet he de-savanted Spook and Mistbirthed him and only mentioned it after the fact. So who knows?

In principle, I agree with you that changing someone that much without their permission is at best questionable. Still, to ensure the survival of mankind, and of the Terris race in particular (who, recall, wanted him to be their king anywho, also as Mr. Sanderson pointed out once he was also technically their Emperor following the deaths of Vin and Elend), I for one am willing to give him a mulligan on this invasion.

On that note, if I do ever lose my manhood and any of you are ever in a position to magically restore my boys to me, you've got my blanket permission to do so.

[Gamma Fiend]

Looks like Sazed already has some practice with the Endowment shard, then...

[Ete'ni]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[Oudeis]

And yet Demoux still has that scar on his head...

[Ete'ni]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[WeiryWriter]

Well, he restored people to how they were originally supposed to be. I understand that in total sense. Those eunuch were such by force, not by choice. Wouldn't it be cruel just leave them at that? Like they wake up seeing the world renewed and they are still their old selves?

 

Ouch...

 

That is really what I was getting at.  I think he should have given them the chance to say no.  Yes they were eunuchs by force but they've spent there entire lives as eunuchs and as such it has to be a major part of how they view themselves.  And being a eunuch is just like having a hand chopped off or being unable to walk, it has significant physiological effects.  To fundamentally change who they are as people without their permission is just messed up.

 

I'm not saying Sazed shouldn't have healed them, I'm saying he just should have asked permission first.  Personally, I don't find that "cruel" at all.

 

Well, we've got the precedent of, Rashek asked his buddies before Mistwraithing them, so he might've. Yet he de-savanted Spook and Mistbirthed him and only mentioned it after the fact. So who knows?

In principle, I agree with you that changing someone that much without their permission is at best questionable. Still, to ensure the survival of mankind, and of the Terris race in particular (who, recall, wanted him to be their king anywho, also as Mr. Sanderson pointed out once he was also technically their Emperor following the deaths of Vin and Elend), I for one am willing to give him a mulligan on this invasion.

On that note, if I do ever lose my manhood and any of you are ever in a position to magically restore my boys to me, you've got my blanket permission to do so.

 

Don't get me started on Spook becoming mistborn.  I HATE it with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns, it fundamentally ruins the character for me.  But yah... Not Sazed's finest hour in my opinion...

 

Even still I don't think being King/Emperor gives him the right to change people like that?  Also at this point, time wasn't really an issue so its not like he just didn't have time to ask for permission.

 

I second this blanket permission.

[Oudeis]

Not Sazed's finest hour in my opinion...

 

Well... during that hour he also prevented the literal end of the world. So... yeah, prolly his best. I mean if you take them all together. Like, if you add up all the good of "saved the physical planet from cracking and disintergrating" and subtracted the amount of "hey I never asked for these testicles," and even "spook's a mistborn now, maybe not the best idea" (though I put the blame for that one on Kelsier), I still think on balance he's never had an hour with so much net "good" before or since.

 

The time he married Vin and Elend came close, in my mind, but largely cuz I totally ship that. OTP FTW.

[Ete'ni]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[Swimmingly]

The matter is human beings get used to better things really fast. It's worsening conditions that is difficult to get used to. And having a damaged feet, I'd say if someone healed me suddenly, I'd be very happy. I want to be able to dance and jump already.

 

As for Spook... Well, people needed sign for him to be the leader like a natural choice. they had it. Made it easier for things to happen. Remember kindly that leader doesn't need to ask, he can order people.

As, in fact, the old grumpy crippled warlord who's name I cannot remember did.

Also, how do we know he didn't ask permission for things that weren't clearly bad/good cases? A simple psychic questionnaire asking "Would you like your genitals back? Yes/No/Other" would do as well. It's also possible that time was an issue - if the Intent of Harmony is equilibrium and action through proxies, then his old personality would only have so long to direct the power before Harmony- not Sazed - is weilding it.

[Ete'ni]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[WeiryWriter]

Muahaha... No guys, things don't work like that. It's the leader's task to decide and those are orders. I'm sorry, hard times bring hard measures. No offence, but if you try to please everyone, you'll end up doing nothing.

 

I just don't buy that excuse, especially in this case; a leader has absolutely no right to change somebody's body without their consent.  Being a eunuch from birth is not like being turned into a eunuch later in life, it has profound effects on physiology and brain chemistry.  Changing that, fundamentally changes who they are as people.  How would you like it if some godly being changed your sex without asking your permission, because "for the survival of the human race we need more dudes with working parts".  You probably, and quite rightly, wouldn't be a fan because its wrong to do something like that without permission.

 

And frankly, "nobody can please everybody" doesn't really apply here.  As Darnam pointed out Sazed could have spoke into all of the eunuchs' minds at once, like Rashek did with the feruchemists/mistwraiths, so he had ample opportunity to ask.  And if he just decided not to that's horrible.

 

As, in fact, the old grumpy crippled warlord who's name I cannot remember did.

Also, how do we know he didn't ask permission for things that weren't clearly bad/good cases? A simple psychic questionnaire asking "Would you like your genitals back? Yes/No/Other" would do as well. It's also possible that time was an issue - if the Intent of Harmony is equilibrium and action through proxies, then his old personality would only have so long to direct the power before Harmony- not Sazed - is weilding it.

 

This is getting into major theory-ground, since we don't know for sure that "Harmony" has its own inherent Intent or if Sazed just made up rules for himself.  But anyway Sazed wouldn't have been under and time-crunch, it takes a loooooong time to be molded to your shard's Intent, like centuries/millennia.

[Swimmingly]

I just don't buy that excuse, especially in this case; a leader has absolutely no right to change somebody's body without their consent.  Being a eunuch from birth is not like being turned into a eunuch later in life, it has profound effects on physiology and brain chemistry.  Changing that, fundamentally changes who they are as people.  How would you like it if some godly being changed your sex without asking your permission, because "for the survival of the human race we need more dudes with working parts".  You probably, and quite rightly, wouldn't be a fan because its wrong to do something like that without permission.

 

And frankly, "nobody can please everybody" doesn't really apply here.  As Darnam pointed out Sazed could have spoke into all of the eunuchs' minds at once, like Rashek did with the feruchemists/mistwraiths, so he had ample opportunity to ask.  And if he just decided not to that's horrible.

 

 

This is getting into major theory-ground, since we don't know for sure that "Harmony" has its own inherent Intent or if Sazed just made up rules for himself.  But anyway Sazed wouldn't have been under and time-crunch, it takes a loooooong time to be molded to your shard's Intent, like centuries/millennia.

Fair enough. As little as I like it, I suppose Ete might have had a point