What exactly it means - Honor is dead?

[samsocial]

We know that Honor is dead from stormfather. We also know that his vessel was Tanavest, who was killed by Odium.

It might be stupid question but, I do not understand what exactly died.

Is it the vessel that was carrying Honor died? If yes, why can't it be replaced by a new one?

Or is it Honor itself that died? If yes, what happened to his investiture? Is it still there somewhere? Or it is now shared with Odium and Cultivation?

When Honor got mad, is it Tanavast who got mad or it was Honor itself? How can a god get mad ? I understand that it was because of thousands of years of battle, torture, etc. By definition he is supposed to live thousands of years. If he is unable to cope the time what's the point in having him as a god?

[Frustration]

Tanavast is dead

Honor is splinterred, meanin the power is still around but cannot take a new vessel.

He was going mad because of Odium's attack.

[Ironwill2112 he/him]

Yes

[samsocial]

13 hours ago, Boomerang Guy said:

Yes

?

 

On 11/8/2021 at 0:18 AM, Frustration said:

He was going mad because of Odium's attack.

why? why he did stop Odium ? 

 

On 11/8/2021 at 0:18 AM, Frustration said:

the power is still around but cannot take a new vessel

why ?

[Zapata]

4 hours ago, samsocial said:

 

why? why he did stop Odium ? 

 

why ?

Honestly, we still don't know the full story of the animosity between the Sixteen, but we do know that Rayse was bent on killing other Shards. Tanavast may have been trying to stop that. As for why Honor cannot be taken up right now, it's because Odium ripped it into pieces when Tanavast died.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, samsocial said:

why? why he did stop Odium ? 

Do you mean why didn't he stop Odium?

Simple answer being we don't know how splintering works, could be that he simply couldn't

5 hours ago, samsocial said:

why ?

It's broken.

A pot will hold water, but if you break it into pieces it won't.

[samsocial]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A pot will hold water, but if you break it into pieces it won't.

but water is still there, why it cannot be put in a new pot ?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, samsocial said:

but water is still there, why it cannot be put in a new pot ?

The water is Tanavst and it's gone.

Honor is the pot, and it doesn't matter how much watter you add, the pot is still broken.

[Ironwill2112 he/him]

Sorry. I was saying "yes" to what Frustration said.

[Zoey she/her]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:59 AM, samsocial said:

but water is still there, why it cannot be put in a new pot ?

The issue is that Honor is broken into pieces and, as far as we know, cannot be put back together. It is in essence like what happened to Adonalsium, except on a smaller scale. It was split apart, and the Investiture spread out as Splinters, and took on its own sentience as Stormfather, and a bunch of different Spren. 

 

Essentially there is a hierarchy of parts of Adonalsium

 

1. Adonalsium (1)
2. Shards (1/16)
3. Splinters (1/x) 

 

Honor, a Shard, has been reduced into Splinters, and just as we don't know if Adonalsium can be restored, we don't know if Honor can either. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:59 AM, samsocial said:

but water is still there, why it cannot be put in a new pot ?

This is not entirely explained, I think intentionally ... the possibility of re-uniting Honor may be part of the Stormlight Archive plot, or if not, I think it's at least a plausible red herring - Odium's "WE KILLED YOU" may imply that Dalinar is on the path to reunite Honor. (I personally lean in the 'red herring' direction).

But we do know that Investiture can't really be created or destroyed (though it can be converted to other forms) - it seems that what is really happening is that when the Shard is Splintered, its identity (Identity?) is changed so it no longer exists as one thing that can be held by an individual, but instead as many separate entities. Honor's Investiture is in Stormlight in the highstorm and in spren; a Physical Realm person can bond a spren, but the spren remains a separate identity, and you surely can't bond all the spren containing Honor's Investiture at once.

A Shard can have Splinters without being Splintered as such - Divine Breath are Splinters of Endowment, and honorspren existed before Honor was killed - so reuniting Honor wouldn't necessarily involve killing all the honorspren and other spren with parts of Honor's Investiture, but it would probably involve some kind of crazy Connection/Identity/etc work plus inhaling a highstorm or most of the Stormlight in the world or something ... maybe? but that would seem parallel to [MIstborn: Hero of Ages/Secret History spoilers]

Spoiler

Vin drawing in the mists to Ascend to Preservation.

Sazed taking up both Ruin and Preservation to become Harmony might be analogous to un-Splintering a Shard, but it seems that Sazed had to become about evenly Connected to both Shards to make that work - doing that with tons of Splinters would probably be vastly harder... Though maybe something like the Ire's Connection Orb could do it?

 

[Legui01010 he/him]

13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Odium's "WE KILLED YOU" may imply that Dalinar is on the path to reunite Honor

Perhaps, Dalinar (in one of my theories) is in possession of a large Splinter of Honor (Unity). But it very well could be possible to "reforge" Honor, thing is finding all the pieces, but even doing so might not be enough. Honor invested a lot of his power on his legacy, the Radiants and Spren, Odium did no such thing, conserving a great part of his power, and let's not forget that the Intent of Honor stops the Vessel from taking certain actions (just like Preservation stopped Kelsier from using the power to attack Ruin). Odium is not bound by any of those "laws" so to say (beyond the ones already settled over every Shard).

And regarding Rayse's actions (splintering the Shards), he was highly unstable, not fitting for the Shard, in the end the Shard took control and forced him to do all those things. In RoW, Dalinar sees how the power is trying to burst through Rayse, attempting to get free (same with Kelsier when he practically wrestled with Preservation to hold control of it, given that Kelsier was more Ruin than Preservation)

[cometaryorbit]

9 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

Perhaps, Dalinar (in one of my theories) is in possession of a large Splinter of Honor (Unity).

I have a feeling something slightly weirder is going on, personally, related to the timelessness of the Spiritual Realm. I think currently Dalinar -- while bonded to the Stormfather, the largest Splinter of Honor as well as Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow -- doesn't actually himself hold any Investiture other than what's normal for a Knight Radiant; but when he does his 'uniting the realms' thing he is getting effects from something in his future.

I'm thinking either holding a Dawnshard with the Command "Unite" or "Bind", or being the Vessel of a reforged Honor or a Shard of "Unity" created by re-Connecting the Splinters of Honor in a different way.

I favor the first, personally - the comment in the epigraph about the Dawnshard known to bind all creatures mortal or voidish suggests the presence of a Dawnshard on Roshar other than Rysn's "Change" one.

9 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

But it very well could be possible to "reforge" Honor, thing is finding all the pieces, but even doing so might not be enough. Honor invested a lot of his power on his legacy, the Radiants and Spren, Odium did no such thing, conserving a great part of his power

True, but before the death of Tanavast/Honor, the spren that were Splinters of Honor were still part of Honor. The Investiture that was actively being an honorspren couldn't be used for something else at the same time, but he wasn't diminished so much as that part of his power was "committed".