Crackpot theories (spoilers for RoW)

[lukaash]

This is my first post here, so hello. I have had this theory for a while, and I think it is definitely out there but possible. My theory is that Taravangian takes up honor instead of Kaladin and becomes War. I know that sounds bad without evidence, so let me explain.

I think that Dalinar will still recombine honor. He will try to take honor, but realize that he would change his soul. There is that specific part of the agreement with Odium where he cannot change his soul or become something new. If Dalinar takes honor, then he will break the deal, and T-Odium will be able to do whatever he wants. Dalinar is already suspicious of being outmaneuvered, so I don't think he will take the shard. A much better candidate would be Kaladin, but I hope it isn't Kal. The man has gone through enough, and honestly, I don't think it would be best for him to take the shard. If he takes the shard after swearing the 5th ideal for windrunners, it makes that ideal feel pointless. If he doesn't swear the 5th ideal, it would also be very stupid. If either one of them refuse it, it would go to the next person of great honor; Taravangian.

I think that I first need to remind everyone that Taravangian is honorable. It is a twisted version of honor, but it is definelty honor. Taravangian felt the need to tell Dalinar about the assassin he sent to kill Dalinar even though he knew that it was not the best idea. Taravangian also stayed with Odium (even though it makes me angry) which is honorable. He could have switched sides again, but Taravangian stuck with Odium. Then there are the discussions between Taravangian and Dalinar which show that Taravangian has honor just different than Dalinar's honor. Taravangian is honorable.

I think the bigger question if Taravangian takes honor is the nature of the shard and the previous vessel (Tanavast). If Tanavast did not have a sense of honor similar to Dalinar, the shard be inclined to be taken by Taravangian. We do not know much about Tanavast other than the fact that he bought Hoid a drink once. I think that Tanavast is going to be similar to Taravangian which is why, bondsmiths (the order closest to Honor in my opinion) are never really meant to be kings. They are meant to do the morally questionable things that have a good end goal. Ishar was the reason that they had to leave Ashyn, and he is not the greatest man. The windrunner was. This is really a tangent and another theory but I also think that the 5th ideal of the windrunner is going to be another limitation on protection. Mabye along the lines of, people have to accept the protection for themselves because Kaladin always forces people to accept his protection. Tangent aside, bondsmiths are not very honorable.

I think that this theory makes the most sense if you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We have already had a conclusion where a good guy claimed a shard. We have already had an ending where a good guy combined two shards. Sazed technically is the most powerful being in the cosmere rn. It would make sense if Sanderson made a threat that could fight Sazed equally (if Sazed did not have really weird intent which limits his actions). Sanderson can make War be Taravangian, and then allow Taravangian shift back to his anti-hero sort of role instead of the BBEG. It would also explain what is causing Sazed so much problems in Mistborn Era 2. Autonomy and War fighting Sazed would be very hard for Sazed to fight.

This is a very stupid theory, but what do you guys think of it?

[KnightsOfHonor]

Welcome to the shard  And I really like this theory. Not sure if I agree with it, but I like it. I also think that if honor gets a new vessel it will not be Kaladin. I could see it being Dalinar but I think Dalinar will have other roles to play as “just” a bond smith and maybe champion of T-Odium like so many suspect. As all the different stories come together and the whole Cosmere becomes more of the main focus, I definitely think there needs to be a “big baddie”. And what you said about it being T-War …. That makes a lot of sense. So, if Taravangian does pick up Honor, what do you think will happen to Cultivation? I think at first she will appear to be on his side, but have her own agenda for the long run (Like why I think she helped killed Honor and was heartbroken for having to do it).

[Crylorenzo he/him]

Certainly the idea of combined intents has been set up somewhat in RoW, that being said,

MB Spoilers

Spoiler

a double-shard is something we already have in Sazed, but even though he's more powerful in a sense, the opposite natures of his shards make it hard for him to act which makes it an interesting combination in terms of storytelling - would he be able to beat, say, Odium, due to his sheer power, or would he lose because of his inability to act sometimes.

Nevertheless, a theory duly noted and not without merit. If it happens, it will certainly have crazy effects down the line of the Cosmere Wars.

[nehalem]

On 10/29/2021 at 3:58 PM, Crylorenzo said:

Certainly the idea of combined intents has been set up somewhat in RoW, that being said,

MB Spoilers

  Hide contents

a double-shard is something we already have in Sazed, but even though he's more powerful in a sense, the opposite natures of his shards make it hard for him to act which makes it an interesting combination in terms of storytelling - would he be able to beat, say, Odium, due to his sheer power, or would he lose because of his inability to act sometimes.

Nevertheless, a theory duly noted and not without merit. If it happens, it will certainly have crazy effects down the line of the Cosmere Wars.

A war between the shards of Harmony and War would certainly be interesting.  Almost poetic

[Tglassy]

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

Hello, and welcome to the 17th Shard! 

 

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

I think that Dalinar will still recombine honor. He will try to take honor, but realize that he would change his soul. There is that specific part of the agreement with Odium where he cannot change his soul or become something new.

I just listened to it, and I don't recall that being a part of the deal... He's already bonded to the Stormfather.  He's already able to act in Honor's place.  He holds authority over Odium's bonds.  I don't see how his soul changing would have anything to do with that.

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

I think that I first need to remind everyone that Taravangian is honorable. It is a twisted version of honor, but it is definelty honor. Taravangian felt the need to tell Dalinar about the assassin he sent to kill Dalinar even though he knew that it was not the best idea. Taravangian also stayed with Odium (even though it makes me angry) which is honorable. He could have switched sides again, but Taravangian stuck with Odium. Then there are the discussions between Taravangian and Dalinar which show that Taravangian has honor just different than Dalinar's honor. Taravangian is honorable.

I would disagree here, pretty hard.  T doesn't have honor.  He believes honor isn't for kings.  Kings do what they have to.  Kill everyone who needs killing.  Lie to whoever you can.  Backstab.  Ruin.  Destroy, and set yourself up as the savior afterwards so people will love you.  That's not honor. 

He didn't tell Dalinar about Szeth because of a sense of honor, but becasue Szeth had sworn to obey Dalinar, and so Szeth would have just told him about T's subterfuge.  So he went ahead and came clean, first.  That's not Honor, that's more plotting and conniving.  

He didn't stay with Odium out of a sense of honor, but because he honestly believed he couldn't beat him.  That's cowardice, not honor.  

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

I think the bigger question if Taravangian takes honor is the nature of the shard and the previous vessel (Tanavast). If Tanavast did not have a sense of honor similar to Dalinar, the shard be inclined to be taken by Taravangian. We do not know much about Tanavast other than the fact that he bought Hoid a drink once.

Tanavast was the main god when they created the Knights Radiant.  His definition of Honor is laid out in the Oaths they have to swear to gain power.  Protecting others, being true to yourself, uniting instead of dividing, Journey before Destination.  In fact, the entire point of "Life before Death" and "Journey before Destination" is that it is NEVER ok to sacrifice the few to save the many.  An Good outcome cannot be attained if the means were evil.  That's literally the whole point of the oaths.  T sacrificed THE ENTIRE WORLD to save just one city, mostly because he believed he couldn't do more.  But he most certainly WOULD sacrifice the few to save the many.  He's done so many times, in his mind.  That's why he never got a Radiant Spren.  He could never say even the first Ideal of the Radiants.  

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

I think that Tanavast is going to be similar to Taravangian which is why, bondsmiths (the order closest to Honor in my opinion) are never really meant to be kings.

I'm pretty sure Windrunners are the closest to Honor, having bonded Honor Spren.  Only one of the Three Bondsmiths bond something resembling Honor (Stormfather).  The other two (Nightwatcher and the Sibling), aren't Honor, but something completely different, with their own versions of Stormlight, even.  The Nightwatcher especially has absolutely no link to Honor.  

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

They are meant to do the morally questionable things that have a good end goal.

I don't know if I can get behind this one, either.  Not only is "do morally questionable thing that have a good end goal" completely contrary to the First Ideal, the Bondsmith Second Ideal is "I will Unite instead of Divide".  They're about bringing peoples together.  Not "Doing whatever is needed to get a good end goal."  Now, I think all Bondsmiths STARTED as people who did what was needed to get a good end goal.  But as they progress, they become better people.  That's the point of the oaths.  To lead them to be better people.  I think all the Radiant Orders' members start as something that their Order will help them work through.  Windrunners are depressed, and so their Oaths make them focus on other people, and ultimately to help themselves grow beyond their depression.  Lightweavers are liars to themselves and others, and need to learn to accept who they are.  Bondsmiths, in my opinion, were utilitarian, and saw the results of such thinking, and thus their Oaths help them grow beyond that.  

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

Ishar was the reason that they had to leave Ashyn, and he is not the greatest man.

Ishar isn't a Bondsmith.  He's Ishar.  His Honor Blade grants him the powers of a Bondsmith, but not their Oaths or Bonds.  He isn't a good example.  

On 10/27/2021 at 4:36 PM, lukaash said:

I think that this theory makes the most sense if you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We have already had a conclusion where a good guy claimed a shard. We have already had an ending where a good guy combined two shards. Sazed technically is the most powerful being in the cosmere rn. It would make sense if Sanderson made a threat that could fight Sazed equally (if Sazed did not have really weird intent which limits his actions). Sanderson can make War be Taravangian, and then allow Taravangian shift back to his anti-hero sort of role instead of the BBEG. It would also explain what is causing Sazed so much problems in Mistborn Era 2. Autonomy and War fighting Sazed would be very hard for Sazed to fight.

This is a very stupid theory, but what do you guys think of it?

I don't think Sazed is any more powerful than any of the other shards.  The Shards themselves are Infinite.  Infinity times two is infinity. 

Though it would be interesting to see War vs Harmony.  Rayse didn't want to be any different, he didn't want to take up any additional shards so he wouldn't change what he was, but T might be different.  He might campaign to pick up other shards.

It's an interesting theory, but there's a lot there that I don't think fits quite right.

[Crylorenzo he/him]

14 hours ago, nehalem said:

A war between the shards of Harmony and War would certainly be interesting.  Almost poetic

Especially because Harmony is at war with himself and War could be in harmony with himself.

[Parzival]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:57 PM, Tglassy said:

 I don't think Sazed is any more powerful than any of the other shards.  The Shards themselves are Infinite.  Infinity times two is infinity. 

I agree with pretty much everything else you said, but this bit is actually wrong. Shards are not infinite, they're just so powerful that they have basically infinte power, unless going up agaisnt something else on the same level, like another shard. We have proof of this in Mistborn, Preservation had to give up a part of himself ot create humans, which made him weaker than Ruin, therefore shards don't have infinite power.

[Tglassy]

3 hours ago, Parzival said:

I agree with pretty much everything else you said, but this bit is actually wrong. Shards are not infinite, they're just so powerful that they have basically infinte power, unless going up agaisnt something else on the same level, like another shard. We have proof of this in Mistborn, Preservation had to give up a part of himself ot create humans, which made him weaker than Ruin, therefore shards don't have infinite power.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong.  The shards are infinite.  The person holding them isn't, but the power is.  Even Sazed says he is not infinite, though parts of him are, in Era 2.  So...like, they all have infinite power...but the mind holding it can't contain all of it at the same time...or something.  It's complicated.  

So when Preservation gave up part of himself, what he gave up was part of his consciousness.  His mind.  The Finite portion of his self.  Pretty sure there are WoB's that talk about this.

[Cocoa he/him]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

I'm pretty sure that's wrong.  The shards are infinite.  The person holding them isn't, but the power is.  Even Sazed says he is not infinite, though parts of him are, in Era 2.  So...like, they all have infinite power...but the mind holding it can't contain all of it at the same time...or something.  It's complicated.  

So when Preservation gave up part of himself, what he gave up was part of his consciousness.  His mind.  The Finite portion of his self.  Pretty sure there are WoB's that talk about this.

Regardless of all the specifics, via multiple WoB, Harmony is leagues more powerful than Odium.

Quote

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Right now the most powerful individual in the cosmere is Harmony.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

Is Harmony stronger than Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

Quote

ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

So, while Shards are infinite, this is a "some infinities are bigger than other infinities" situation.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Cocoa

[Tglassy]

Lol.  There's infinite, and there's Infinite.