Radiant Spren Anticipating Szeth in WoR

[Bopushaq]

In WoR chapter 32, we have Szeth’s assassination attempt on Dalinar. However, just before his attack, Kaladin has a dream where the Stormfather warns him of one who is to come. Soon after, Syl also appears panicked and confirms that something is wrong:

Quote

“Syl spun about, twisting this way, then that. Her small eyes opened wide. “He’s coming.”
“Who? The storm?”
“The one who hates,” she whispered. “The darkness inside. Kaladin, he’s watching. Something’s going to happen. Something bad.”

Now reading this raises a few questions, namely why the Stormfather and Syl both know Szeth is about to attack. Maybe the Stormfather, with his massive amount of investiture and Connection to the Spiritual can see this happening, but why Syl? Maybe it is her bond to the Stormfather and Kaladin’s visions that allows her to know. Earlier in the book, Syl knows that Kal saw the Stormfather in his dream in tWoK while being strung up in the high storm, so this mostly makes sense. But then, why does Pattern know this is about to happen too? Pattern isn’t even an honorspren or a spren about to be attacked. 

Quote

“Pattern’s hums sounded almost like a whimper. Shallan frowned and leaned down close to him. Were those words?
“Bad . . . bad . . . so bad . . .”

I’m not exactly sure how to search up a WoB on such a random detail like this, if there even is one, so if anyone has any ideas or answers, they’d be much appreciated. 

[Bopushaq]

Also another thing to note here, it seems that from Kaladin’s vision and maybe even Syl’s descriptions that they are referring to Odium, not Szeth, as Kal’s vision ends with the Everstorm engulfing everything. 
 

Quote

“HE COMES FOR YOU, LITTLE TRAITOR. I AM SORRY.
Something rose before Kaladin. A second storm, one of red lightning, so enormous as to make the continent—the world itself—into nothing by comparison. Everything fell into its shadow.”

Perhaps this is what Pattern is reacting to as well, which makes a lot more sense given how Odium is a much easier “person” to identify and sense when he’s nearby. But then, this makes me even more confused, as this looks like Brandon is trying to show a connection between Szeth and Odium, almost as if Szeth is Odium’s champion coming to do his work. 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

I think that spren have some innate awareness or Forture that allows them to feel when a Shard focuses its attention on something.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

What allows the conclusion that they were sensing him as opposed to the Honorblade?

[Honorless he/him]

Oh wow, sounds like Odium might not have been able to manifest himself directly on Roshar yet but he was paying attention to certain events.

I wonder... does a tiny bit of Connection form between the observer and the observed? It sounds very plausible to me that it does. Because that might be one explanation of how the spren can feel him.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Honorless

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

What allows the conclusion that they were sensing him as opposed to the Honorblade?

The Honorblade probably isn't "the one who hates" for one, then I'm more inclined to believe that that's Odium and the timing is coincidental.

 

¤_¤

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The Honorblade probably isn't "the one who hates" for one, then I'm more inclined to believe that that's Odium and the timing is coincidental.

 

¤_¤

You're likely right about the Honorblade, but the timing isn't a coincidence. At this point in the series, Odium was still trying to line up Dalinar as his champion and Szeth had just been sent to kill him. I'm not sure if Odium did more than watch, but he might have been prepared to intervene in some way to make sure Dalinar survived the encounter. 

[Inquisitor #5]

34 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

You're likely right about the Honorblade, but the timing isn't a coincidence. At this point in the series, Odium was still trying to line up Dalinar as his champion and Szeth had just been sent to kill him. I'm not sure if Odium did more than watch, but he might have been prepared to intervene in some way to make sure Dalinar survived the encounter. 

Hmm, fair.

I suppose it coincides but isn't a coincidence. That makes a lot of sense as an explanation of why Odium's attention is there at that point.

Not sure Odium had agents in position to be able to intervene. Honestly, the more I look at it, the more Rayse's long game looks rather stupid, Dalinar had too many close calls and Rayse doesn't really seem to have had a backup plan in place for if he lost Dalinar.

 

¤_¤

[AquaRegia he/him]

I also think those statements by the Stormfather, Syl, and Pattern all refer to the attention of Odium, not Szeth, and agree it makes sense for him to be focused on those events.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Honestly, the more I look at it, the more Rayse's long game looks rather stupid, Dalinar had too many close calls and Rayse doesn't really seem to have had a backup plan in place for if he lost Dalinar.

Rayse does have a reputation for being not so subtle or clever... but if our guesses about Gavilar are even close to being correct, I think we're going to find that he did indeed have an excellent backup option to Dalinar.  In fact, I won't be surprised to learn that Dalinar was actually the backup, Gavilar being the once-and-future first choice.

Edited June 16, 2021 by AquaRegia
grammar

[Bopushaq]

12 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh wow, sounds like Odium might not have been able to manifest himself directly on Roshar yet but he was paying attention to certain events.

So we know that Honor trapped Odium in the Rosharan system, specifically Braize.

Quote

Questioner

He's stuck on Braize - at least for now.

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, yes. That was, in effect, that was an intentional -

Questioner

It was deliberate? Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It was deliberate. Yup.

Oathbringer San Diego signing (Nov. 14, 2017)

(WoB shortened for length)

Perhaps in the same way Sja-anat could not really think without the Connection to Odium restored, Odium could not manifest on Roshar without the Everstorm acting as a bridge, which would make his presence that much more noticeable for spren. Also, Syl was born before the Recreance, so she might be more keen to noticing Odium or his investiture, as she does with noticing the stormspren. Again, though, I'm so confused as to why Pattern notices. It's such a weird detail for Brandon to add, but it does have a nice narrative touch in that scene breaking up Kal's vision and Syl's sudden appearance to warn him. Perhaps that's all it is, but knowing Brandon it feels like too important a detail to overlook. Time to add to my list of questions once signings happen again.

 

9 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Honestly, the more I look at it, the more Rayse's long game looks rather stupid, Dalinar had too many close calls and Rayse doesn't really seem to have had a backup plan in place for if he lost Dalinar.

Actually I think Rayse was exceedingly clever. He's splintered four shards (maybe more), and has functionally destroyed a planet and turned the Singers and humans into a massive conflict , which possibly helped cause the death of Honor and maybe more. But I think ever since he got bound to Roshar, he's been getting more desperate (especially since we saw how much turmoil Rayse and the Shard were having), and chose to make a grand final play: Dalinar. But since we saw how incredible that failure was, as well as not getting Kal in RoW, we only think of Rayse as some moron (which I guess he was in the end). Regardless, I think he knew that Dalinar would survive this, as he would need to bond the Stormfather to act on behalf of Honor and release Odium from the Rosharan system.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Bopushaq

[Honorless he/him]

2 hours ago, Bopushaq said:

So we know that Honor trapped Odium in the Rosharan system, specifically Braize.

(WoB shortened for length)

Perhaps in the same way Sja-anat could not really think without the Connection to Odium restored, Odium could not manifest on Roshar without the Everstorm acting as a bridge, which would make his presence that much more noticeable for spren. Also, Syl was born before the Recreance, so she might be more keen to noticing Odium or his investiture, as she does with noticing the stormspren. Again, though, I'm so confused as to why Pattern notices. It's such a weird detail for Brandon to add, but it does have a nice narrative touch in that scene breaking up Kal's vision and Syl's sudden appearance to warn him. Perhaps that's all it is, but knowing Brandon it feels like too important a detail to overlook. Time to add to my list of questions once signings happen again.

The Everstorm was to bypass the cycle of Desolations, wasn't it? But Odium himself wasn't bound by the Oathpact, that was between the Heralds and the Fused, as well as the Voidspren. Odium was bound by Honor and Cultivation. We're told so in-book by Stormfather and WoB

Quote

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

Also, would Odium really need a bridge?

Quote

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the heralds/fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

 

[Bopushaq]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The Everstorm was to bypass the cycle of Desolations, wasn't it? But Odium himself wasn't bound by the Oathpact, that was between the Heralds and the Fused, as well as the Voidspren. Odium was bound by Honor and Cultivation. We're told so in-book by Stormfather and WoB

Also, would Odium really need a bridge?

That is correct. I misinterpreted your original comment about Odium not being able to manifest on Roshar. I thought you were saying that something changed which allowed Odium to manifest more fully, and the only potential candidate I saw was the Everstorm. 

It would've been cool if Honor somehow managed to bind the Fused and Odium to Braize, since that would give the humans more peace without his meddling, but as you've shown above, that probably is not what happened.

 

[Malim he/him]

17 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh wow, sounds like Odium might not have been able to manifest himself directly on Roshar yet but he was paying attention to certain events.

I wonder... does a tiny bit of Connection form between the observer and the observed? It sounds very plausible to me that it does. Because that might be one explanation of how the spren can feel him.

Didn't we see this same thing with Dalinar?  When he was practicing with his powers on his soldiers, didn't he see a connection line between himself and the foot soldier he was practicing on?  This could be the link between commander and subordinate, but could it also be the link between observer and the one being observed? 

There is a principle in science that by observing something, you inherently change it.  (Can't remember the name of the principle offhand.)  We have seen something similar with observed Flame Spren in the Interludes.  As pieces of a Shard, it could be that both Syl and Pattern are picking up on that Connection.

Have we seen any other instances of this Connection at play in Dalinar's POV? 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Malim

[Honorless he/him]

2 hours ago, Bopushaq said:

That is correct. I misinterpreted your original comment about Odium not being able to manifest on Roshar. I thought you were saying that something changed which allowed Odium to manifest more fully, and the only potential candidate I saw was the Everstorm. 

It would've been cool if Honor somehow managed to bind the Fused and Odium to Braize, since that would give the humans more peace without his meddling, but as you've shown above, that probably is not what happened.

Honor lookin kinda sus

2 hours ago, Malim said:

Didn't we see this same thing with Dalinar?  When he was practicing with his powers on his soldiers, didn't he see a connection line between himself and the foot soldier he was practicing on?  This could be the link between commander and subordinate, but could it also be the link between observer and the one being observed? 

There is a principle in science that by observing something, you inherently change it.  (Can't remember the name of the principle offhand.)  We have seen something similar with observed Flame Spren in the Interludes.  As pieces of a Shard, it could be that both Syl and Pattern are picking up on that Connection.

Have we seen any other instances of this Connection at play in Dalinar's POV? 

Oh, I was just going to pose it as a question in Cosmere Q&A! Yeah, it could go either way, though I think it's more likely a Connection between commander & troop. Even if that Connection wasn't an example of this, this does remind me of a similar scene. I recall Dalinar using Connection with an Azish soldier to speak Azish. I don't remember how exactly that scene played out, Dalinar might not have seen any pre-existing Connection between himself and the soldier and forged one himself, so we'll have to check.

Update: nope, there doesn't seem to be a preexisting Connection here

Quote

Try touching one of them. With Spiritual Adhesion, you can make a Connection.

Dalinar regarded the group of hostile guards, then sighed, waving and miming the act of dumping a drink into his mouth. The soldiers exchanged sharp words, then one of the youngest was pushed forward with a canteen. Dalinar nodded in thanks, then—as he took a drink from the water bottle—grabbed the young man by the wrist and held on.

Stormlight, the rumbling in his mind said.

Dalinar pressed Stormlight into the other man, and felt something—like a friendly sound coming from another room. All you had to do was get in. After a careful shove, the door opened, and sounds twisted and undulated in the air. Then, like music changing keys, they modulated from gibberish to sense.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Honorless

[Waffles]

On 6/15/2021 at 6:04 PM, Bopushaq said:

Also another thing to note here, it seems that from Kaladin’s vision and maybe even Syl’s descriptions that they are referring to Odium, not Szeth, as Kal’s vision ends with the Everstorm engulfing everything. 
 

Perhaps this is what Pattern is reacting to as well, which makes a lot more sense given how Odium is a much easier “person” to identify and sense when he’s nearby. But then, this makes me even more confused, as this looks like Brandon is trying to show a connection between Szeth and Odium, almost as if Szeth is Odium’s champion coming to do his work. 

I always interpret this scene as Odium watching some pivotal event. He wants Dalinar as his own so he may have made his presence known to the spren to alert them to the presence of the assassin  and protect his investment in Dalinar.

Edit: As an additional aside, Szeth has made no mention of his spren reacting when Odium was present during Rayse's death which may suggest Odium can hide his presence from spren.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Waffles

[crème de la crèmling]

I believe that Szeth's attack took place just moments after Eshonai took on stormform, as the bulk of the highstorm passed. In the interlude preceding Part 2, she and Venli talk about picking a highstorm to initiate the change. In the interlude following, she goes through with it.  The Stormfather interacts with both Eshonai and Kaladin in the same sorrowful manner, as if this all was inevitable, and says "I'm sorry" to the both of them. The timing of the event I think is also confirmed by some dialogue lines about the meeting with Dalinar and Eshonai that is to take place soon, in both chapter 32 and I-5. Renarin and Adolin have a conversation about a Parshendi messenger, while Eshonai and Thude (the messenger) have a conversation confirming the meeting date. In I-8, Eshonai directly pitches the idea of bringing the Everstorm into the Physical Realm. 

Szeth's appearance at the same time is something I always interpreted as a terrible coincidence in-world. Narratively, he seems to represent the political/human threat that the characters get distracted by. The spren know that Odium and the Everstorm are coming, but the humans are still preoccupied by these smaller conflicts. I think the thematic connection between Szeth and Odium still stands, however, since Taravangian will eventually take up the Shard. (How does the relationship between Dalinar and Rayse mirror the relationship between Szeth and Taravangian? That's an interesting thought.) 

Something else that's interesting to me is that Syl is the one who whispers, "he's here" right before Szeth appears. Earlier in WoR, she seems to demonstrate a minor ability to see farflung Connections between people (specifically when she imitates Shallan on the beach while standing by a pool in the chasms). In OB, she has that mysterious comment about Kaladin's family. Maybe she really is seeing a capital C Connection between Szeth and Odium? 

In a more "mundane" sense, maybe Syl and the Stormfather are aware of Szeth via the highstorm, and expressing concern about both the oncoming Everstorm and Szeth, while Pattern is only sensing the Everstorm. (Which is bad enough, I suppose.)

Pattern does mention that the spren "sensed" something wrong in RoW. The way Pattern frames it makes it sound like he knew about it prior to entering the Physical Realm, whenever that might have been. 

Quote

"I wanted to be in the other realm. See that part of our world. And I knew danger was coming. All spren could sense it. The Oathpact was no longer working correctly. Voidspren were sneaking onto Roshar, using some kind of back door."

RoW Chapter 75: The Middle Step

He's not clear about how that happens, but it seems the spren were aware of movement from Odium and voidspren in some capacity. I really want to know how he knew, though.