Philosophical dilema about Spren

[+Bzhydack he/him]

There is philosophical dilema, paradox from the field of metaphysics of identity, Is called "Ship of Theseus" paradox.

Spoiler

Thanks to WandaVision, is now known to more people.

So, there is Ship of Theseus. It stays in harbour of Athens. In time, rotet and decayed planks of ship are replaced with new ones, to the point the whole Ship is fully replaced. Still has the same owner, or his offspring.

Is this ship still the same ship?

And later, someone rebuilds ship from the old planks. Is puttung together piece by piece, untill has the whole ship made from original planks.

So is this original ship? Has all original parts. But not have original history.

Witch one is original Ship?

And, more important for us, how would look like the spren of Ship?

And witch one would be Original? And how they would look like compare to each other? would they be twin-spren? Would they have the same memories of Theseus's Jurney?

Witch one would be consider as Original Spren?

[Weltall]

There is, perhaps unsurprisingly, a WoB directly on point there.

Quote

Oversleep

I have a philosophy question that could actually be answered in cosmere:

Ship of Theseus in cosmere. If I went and replaced every part of the ship, would it still - Cognitively - be the same thing?

What if I replaced everything and made a second ship out of the parts from the first one? What could somebody watching all of that from Shadesmar tell me?

Brandon Sanderson

You're right, part of the design of the cosmere (which has some deep roots in classical philosophy) was an attempt to answer the Ship of Theseus question.

In the cosmere, part of the Cognitive--and even spiritual--aspect of a thing (particularly if it isn't sentient) is delineated by the way that thinking beings define it. Per the old joke about the axe, if you replace your axe head and think of the new axe as "Your Axe," then the cognitive and spiritual aspects of that thing will grow to reflect that.

If you replaced every part of your ship, and gave the sailors time to sail it, thinking of it as the same ship--it would become the same ship.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 9, 2017)

Presumably if you had two ships, one that started out as the original and was replaced piece by piece and the second that was made with all the pieces taken from the first, which one would be considered the 'original' ship Cognitively would depend on what the sailors think. If they see Ship 1 as the same ship, then Ship 1 is the same Cognitive unit and Ship 2 will manifest its own over time. If they see Ship 2 as the original because it was made with all the bits of the original, then it would be the 'original' and Ship 1 would eventually manifest its own Cognitive aspect.

In all likelihood you'd get the former situation and not the latter, with Ship 1 continuing to be the original ship Cognitively because that's how people tend to think and Ship 2 would be its own completely new thing, perhaps with some vague understanding that it's kin to Ship 1.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Weltall

[+Bzhydack he/him]

51 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Presumably if you had two ships, one that started out as the original and was replaced piece by piece and the second that was made with all the pieces taken from the first, which one would be considered the 'original' ship Cognitively would depend on what the sailors think. If they see Ship 1 as the same ship, then Ship 1 is the same Cognitive unit and Ship 2 will manifest its own over time. If they see Ship 2 as the original because it was made with all the bits of the original, then it would be the 'original' and Ship 1 would eventually manifest its own Cognitive aspect.

But what if BOTH crews belived their Ship is Original?

[Weltall]

22 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

But what if BOTH crews belived their Ship is Original?

Assuming all that belief were weighed equally (ie, one crew didn't only sort of believe theirs was the original and the other really passionately did), I'm guessing the same thing that would happen in the hypothetical of someone with healing being perfectly bisected: The 'soul' of the original Ship would randomly go to Ship 1 or 2 and the other would have to manifest its own over time.

One thing I love about Brandon's works, we can actually have discussions about stuff like this completely straightfaced.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Weltall