We were wrong about the Skybreakers. And most of them are probably wrong about themselfs.

[mathiau he/him]

With RoW we've had exactly two informations about the Skybreaker order, and they change everything

The first is this one

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“You do well, my acolyte,” the spren said, its tone formal. “You are vigilant and dedicated.”

“I am,” Szeth said.

“We need to discuss your crusade. You are a year into your current oath, and I am pleased and impressed with your dedication. You are among the most vigilant and worthy of men. I would have you earn your Plate. You still wish to cleanse your homeland?”

So the fourth Ideal is about proving your dedication and worth and not about actually doing something, it's about how you will complete your crusade and in Szeth's case him not going on his crusade proved he was worthy to be given a plate and to possibility to advance to the Fifth Ideal.

Then there's the real new information, one about the elusive Fifth Ideal.

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“You may need to fight and destroy those who have broken their own laws. Can you do this?”

“I … would need to ask Dalinar. He is my Ideal.”

“If you progress as a Skybreaker,” the highspren said, “you will need to become the law. To reach your ultimate potential, you must know the truth yourself, rather than relying on the crutch presented by the Third Ideal. Be aware of this.”

In the italic part the Highspren implies that by swearing the fifth oath will liberate Szeth from his Third Ideal. This seems to clash with the fact that one of the Highsprens' grievances against the Honourspren was the latter's willingness to forgive people from breaking oaths but it actually doesn't, having an oath has an end condition is not the same as breaking an oath.

In the bolded part the Highspren explains what the 5th oath means: "I'm now able to give myself rules on how to live and follow them. And I'm confident these rules will be just"

The path of the Skybreaker is therefore the following

1st Oath: accept to start the path, get absolved from any previous crimes.

2nd Oath: a more experienced member accept to guide you on the path. If there was more 5th Oath Skybreaks I suspect only them would take squires, as they're the most able to guide someone on this path.

3rd Oath: chose a clear set of law and learn of it, it's strengths and limitations

4th Oath: prove you're able to stay true to your Oaths under duress, that you will not compromise even if it allow you

5th Oath: use what you've learned to become a person able to Autonomously chose their own laws and uphold them.

Yes. Capital A. A Fifth Oath Skybreaker is, if I'm right about the 5th Oath, the best candidate for someone able to hold both Honour and Autonomy. I don't think Honour made the Skybreakers to be that way, he didn't really make them anyway, I think it's just the usual "the Order resemble the Herald" (which by the way we have no idea why it happens) and Nale was attuned to Honour+Autonomy. Which may or may not part of why Honour chose him.

Actually, I'd say other Heralds where attuned to Honour+x, possibly each of them

Jezrien, Herald of Kings: Dominion+Honour. A good king, putting protecting and caring for his people the most important priority

Chana: Ruin+Honour. Destruction fettered and given purpose by Honour

Paliah, who had the attribute of Learned: Honour+Cultivation, equal Science.

Ishar: Honour+Odium

Taln: maybe Devotion+Honour, the Stoneward are noted to be the order with the members the closest to their Herald and their motto "I'll be there when I'm needed" fit decently with the "I'll be there for you" idea I think Devotion+Honour would be the incarnation of.

 

Now back to the Skybreakers. You might have noticed that current day Skybreakers are kind of stuck, most of them stay at the third oath and those who try the fourth take decades to fulfil it which... How? I get taking time to chose a Crusade, but Szeth managed to be deemed worthy of skipping the fourth oath after a year, of doing nothing. And none of them reached the Fifth Oath in centuries. I think it's because they don't understand their path. The 4th Oaths Skybreakers told Szeth there'd be no game here but when asked about the Fifth Oath he refused to understand saying that it was unimportant despite that -if anything I said until here is true- the 5th Oath is not only the most important of the five, but the only one that will matter in the end except for the first. Without this the Skybreakers get stuck at the 3rd-4th Oath.

I think it could even be the reason Nale took so much time befor endorsing them, and I suspect the reason he descided to endorse them after the Revv toparchy incident was either because the first 5th Oath Skybreaker was sworn there or that he had the occasion to interact with 5th Oath Skybreakers and observe they were actually not like the stuck-at-third he had met

Also you might have noticed I said Nale was attuned to Honour+Autonomy. After Millenia of torture he's confidence in himself isn't as strong as before and he now advise not to swear to obey him as the Third Oath. I think if he was Fourth Oath and in this state he would not be able to swear the Fifth, and if he become any worse he'll end up breaking his 5th oath, and kicked from his own order.

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by mathiau

[extremepayne he/him]

46 minutes ago, mathiau said:

So the fourth Ideal is about proving your dedication and worth and not about actually doing something, it's about how you will complete your crusade and in Szeth's case him not going on his crusade proved he was worthy to be given a plate and to possibility to advance to the Fifth Ideal.

???
The Fourth Ideal is about the crusade itself. Szeth's dedication and worth is something he has already shown and his spren wants him to advance because of that. That is very different from actually advancing him because of it. If you read the quote you posted, his spren says:

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I would have you earn your Plate.

"I would have" implies that Szeth has not already earned the Plate. Plus, we don't see Szeth use it. I am very confused why you think Szeth is Fourth Ideal. He is on Third, and the Fourth will be complete when the crusade is complete. That is why his spren asks if he still wants to use the "cleanse Shinovar" bit as a crusade: because Szeth needs to crusade, but he could pick a different crusade if he really wanted.

Just to be extra clear, Szeth is on Third Ideal. That will remain true until he completes the Ideal of Crusade, by finishing his chosen crusade, exactly as Ki outlined. Nothing in the passage contradicts what Ki told Szeth.

 

As for the bit with the Shards and the Orders, I dunno about any of that. It isn't patently false like Szeth being Fourth Ideal, but I am just really not sure what to think of it. There's a thematic parallel, sure, but I don't know what that really would mean. The overall sentiment of Skybreakers never advancing to the higher Ideals being a bad thing and unhealthy for the Order I agree with, but the way in which it is stated is rather strange to me.

[mathiau he/him]

27 minutes ago, extremepayne said:

???
The Fourth Ideal is about the crusade itself. Szeth's dedication and worth is something he has already shown and his spren wants him to advance because of that. That is very different from actually advancing him because of it. If you read the quote you posted, his spren says:

"I would have" implies that Szeth has not already earned the Plate. Plus, we don't see Szeth use it. I am very confused why you think Szeth is Fourth Ideal. He is on Third, and the Fourth will be complete when the crusade is complete. That is why his spren asks if he still wants to use the "cleanse Shinovar" bit as a crusade: because Szeth needs to crusade, but he could pick a different crusade if he really wanted.

Just to be extra clear, Szeth is on Third Ideal. That will remain true until he completes the Ideal of Crusade, by finishing his chosen crusade, exactly as Ki outlined. Nothing in the passage contradicts what Ki told Szeth.

Allow me to rephrase. I don't think Szeth is at the Fourth Ideal, I think the Highspren offered to Szeth to go at the Fourth Ideal because he had already proven himself.

I had understood the "I would have" as an elevated language version if "I'd like to" but I'm not a native speaker so I could easily be wrong. The idea of giving Szeth a new Crusade because he's alredy proved his worth feels weird to me but Highsprens are supposed to be obsessed by rule so I guess it's possible.

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The overall sentiment of Skybreakers never advancing to the higher Ideals being a bad thing and unhealthy for the Order I agree with, but the way in which it is stated is rather strange to me.

I removed the part about Anti-Ambition so it should be better

[extremepayne he/him]

Yeah, I would have is similar to I'd like to, but it implies there is something left for Szeth to do. I don't think the highspren is offering to advance him, as, like Ki said, you can only advance once the crusade is complete. It reads to me like this

"Szeth, you are amazing and wonderful and I know you can make Fourth, you just need to do a crusade. Would you still like to cleanse the Shin, or would you prefer a different crusade?"

I don't think the conversation changes anything about how the Fourth can be achieved. After all, Ki was probably plenty determined for the two decades they remained at Third, and their highspren didn't advance them until they completed the quest.

I think proving your worth in the way you describe is what is needed to begin the quest. Completing the quest is what unlocks the Plate and advances you an Ideal. The way Ki talks about the Ideal backs this up.