Dawnshards, the nature of bondsmithing and who has had the shards and where they are.

[Valigus]

To figure out the dawnshards we need to figure out what they are and where they are.

so I think first we need to know who has a dawnshard to begin with, we know that 

1) at least 2 are on roshar

2) 1 is change and I think we can assume it belonged to cultivation

3) 1 compelled hoid to not harm people and may or may not be on roshar

4) 1 destroyed ashyn which means that it likely belonged to odium but honor brought them to roshar for a reason meaning it could have been his. This is also why he raved about it and felt like it was needed to beat odium.

5) one may be on Scadrial and if one was it seems likely that it is survive.

6. the dawnshards have voices and speak to their bearers, can they speak to people who do not Carry them?

so assuming each of the 16 who owned a dawnshard had them at the shattering.

So the shards are 

1. Change- That means cultivation had one and its change that’s done. When this was taken up there was a stark golden light

2. ______- dawnshard savanatism stopped hoid from hurting people and hoid had this one where it is we don’t know.

3. ______- destroyed ashyn possessed by honor or odium. 

4.______- no definitive information

interesting points-

1. surivive is a voice heard on Scadrial and would match preservation 

2. unite them and unity is tied to dalinar,  nohadon and honor. when dalinar proclaims himself unity odium shrinks back from a golden light 

3. honor appears to have a unique surge present in bondsmith a and windrunners additionally bondsmith dedicated on ashyn which means adhesion must have been accessed but honor was not present and a dawnshard was.

4. this is very very important the most important one, surges existed before the shattering they are fundamental forces of the universe and the fundamental laws that govern it which means that since they are tied to honor and cultivation specifically by the fused if we take their word considering their advanced cosmere awareness and age we may be able to.
 

5. this is also very very important, one dawnshard is different than the others.
 

conclusions- 

Then if dawnshards are the fundamental commands used to create the universe and honor and cultivation are responsible for the surges somehow but surges and surgebinding was around before the shattering that means that it makes sense for this to be a dawnshard that did this and since we have a danwshard very closely matching cultivation’s intent being growth there should be one very closely matching honors.

therefore the dawnshard closet match’s honors intent it is likely the one that grants bondsmithing through the honor or potentially dawnshard specific surge, this woudl be how bondsmith existed on ashyn most likely. in fact based on this it seems that bondsmiths are basically recreations of the power that this dawnshard gave.

So that means dawnshard number 3. Was most likely possessed by honor. This assuming that he possessed it for the shattering means in cannot be hoids. 
so 

3._______- possessed by honor 

so what is the most likely candidate for this shard the answer immediately seems to be unity but we will see.

so as another post suggested we can group the shards into 4 like the alomantic metals each under a dawnshard nad this why their are 16 shards it split adonalsium into 16 parts each group of 4 being aspects of a dawnshard. So we must be able to group these along the lines of dawnshards. we can ignore change since other then cultivation it doesn’t matter. So we must identify Other shards related to bondsmithing to then work out the intent of this dawnshard. It cannot be odium, or cultivation because on has a dawnshard and one divides which bondsmiths do not do. Valor doesn’t seem to currently share much in common same for whimsy, invention, mercy, ruin, ambition, and  autonomy. Endowment is out because hoid was offered the shard of endowment and assuming he had this dawnshard at the shattering along with honor that means endowment cannot be in the same group as honor. This all leaves us with honor, dominion, and devotion. All of these are effects that bind things. It is possible that odium is in this group if you consider that maybe it is in a two shard group with devotion as shards that unite for/against one pushing and one pulling but I think hatred being more divisive so this is debatable. I think odium would be in the group with ruin but this is a possible arrangement.

this means odium seems to not possess a dawnshard as it may be in the group with honor and 3 dawnshards on roshar seems unlikely.

Now for the dawnshards I think that the different dawnshard is likely either the one possessed by hoid or honor. Hoid because of the interesting effects it may have had on him but this may be explained by basically dawnshard savantism. Honor because of the unique surge associated with the dawnshard honor possessed and honor himself possesses as a consequence of that dawnshard potentially. This opens up a possibility that all people in honors 4 group have adhesion but this seems potentially unlikely since odium could be in that group and the fused who know of other shards specifically call it a surge of honor. However it does not seem like cultivation has a unique surge and she seemingly possessed a dawnshard that means honors dawnshard is likely the unique one, so it is still possible all shards in honors group possess this power because they were created through a unique dawnshard this means odium is not in honors group if this is the case. I could also have this backwards and change is the only one that does not give a unique surge or we have not seen the unique surge for change yet. This seems unlikely because odium possesses neither another special surge or adhesion. Supporting this is the line stating the dawnshards were known to bind any being voidish or mortal however growth seems hummable to do this and adhesion can do just as described.

unity would fit this description and may be the dawnshard or at least soemthing similar which means dalinar may have it. Another possibility that may have been overlooked is that kaladin is actually in possession of this dawnshard and that is why he has other unexplained abilities however this would likely mean that the honor dawnshard is not different because he does not display bondsmithing abilities or he potentially does not have enough investiture to activate them.

So what is the dawnshard hoid had? it does not appear to be the one honor had assuming honor has had it during the shattering and it is likely the one related to endowment and its like it also made him nearly unkillable and prevented him from being able to harm anyone. This appears to be a form of savantism. The unkillable part seems likely to apply to all of them but the inability to harm may be similarly connect to them all or it may help us narrow down the intent, assuming it can help us our best bet here is to group endowment with other shards via common ground then extrapolate an intent. But I have no clue what shards it could share common ground with other then cultivation and those don’t seem to have similar dawnshard roots.

A suggestion I like on the names of the dawnshard is from user Leuthie

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Unite is probably a Command, although I'd call it Bind. The name Unite comes from Dalinar/Tanavast UNITE THEM, which I never thought had anything to do with Dawnshards. Occam's Razor says "Unite them" refers to creating political and social unity among the various groups on Roshar, not using a Dawnshard Command. Tanavast is telling Dalinar to seek unity, that the problems Dalinar is trying to solve have to do with Odium creating discord where it doesn't need to be. However, I'd still include a Bind Command among the Dawnshards.

Create is an obvious Dawnshard Command.

I think Destroy is another obvious Dawnshard Command.

So Create, Destroy, Change and Bind. 4 Commands that would allow a powerful being to do anything they wanted to do ever.

These are comprehensive commands that fit the nature of the shard held by honor very well. this would mean hoid has the create dawnshard however I think this doesn’t make sense for a few reasons. The main one is these are commands to a universe where thermo dynamics exist and as such matter/energy/investiture cannot be created or preserved so I think the shard hoid has was something along the lines of conserve/ maintain/ transfer basically the first law of thermodynamics. This is why he cannot kill because in the cosmere souls exist outside this and when things are killed they pass seemingly for good meaning hoid is unable to kill them or eat their flesh since it would violate that intent. In this context endowment represents whatever the energy is being converted to when its “used up”. 
 

The 4th dawnshard I have no clue but bind seems a good bet for the 3rd.

Basically- 

the first dawnshard is change and cultivation had it.

the second dawnshard is basically or at least kinda related to the first law of thermodynamics or soemthing similar and hoid had it at one point. If it is not this I believe that this dawnshard would be life or soemthing similar and would law down the rules for life in the cosmere and it’s interactions with everything this would include things like the rules for how souls work.

the third dawnshard is different from the others and is possibly unity or bind or some other similar command this dawnshard if this is correct was likely used to bind the other three into a cohesive system. This dawnshard also appears to give bondsmithing powers to those who use and the bondsmiths may exist as imitations of this, honor likely possessed it this likely destroyed ashyn, it is also likely honor possesses the surge of adhesion because of holding this dawnshard for a long time or soemthing like that or all shards split by it may have access to it these likely include devotion and dominion it’s possible it include odium but I doubt it.

the 4th dawnshard i have no idea about and were ruin not a shard I would assume it to be like the second law of thermodynamics ever increasing entropy but generally it seems likely that this category includes ruin, maybe odium and others and will be vowed more negatively.

also cultivation is evil, Because I feel compelled to put that since in losing my mind thinking of cultivation conspiracy theories.

[mathiau he/him]

One of my theories has been used in another theory? I'm honoured

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

2) 1 is change and I think we can assume it belonged to cultivation

Saying a Dawnshard belong to a Shard could be mistake. The Shard have a number of agreement and not becoming/not using a Dawnshard is probably one of them. I mean just imagine Ruin using the Change Dawnshard or Honour using the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creature alike?

Cord has heard ancestral stories of how Change got through the Peak's perpendicularity which implies it was not on Roshar before the destruction of Braize

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

3) 1 compelled hoid to not harm people and may or may not be on roshar

Depending on how Dawnshard savantism works it would either be Change or something like Survive. If Dawnshard savantism works like on Roshar (you become what you use) it's Survive, if it's like Scadrial (you loose what you use, but gain more when using the power) it's Change

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

4) 1 destroyed ashyn which means that it likely belonged to odium but honor brought them to roshar for a reason meaning it could have been his. This is also why he raved about it and felt like it was needed to beat odium.

This one is fitted perfectly by Change. The Dawnshard Honour was raving about was probably the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creature alike; that I'll be calling Bind in the rest because otherwise it's a mouthful.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

5. this is also very very important, one dawnshard is different than the others.

So, do I have an explanation of why I think it's Survive that doesn't require a dozen of disputed assumptions and two theories I've not yet shared with the 17th... Kind of

On the group of 4 thread when we tried to guess the Dawnshard's name, if you exclude the one the realy change the sequence a lot like Leuthi's Change Bind Create Destroy, you ended up with things one the line of Change Unite/Bind Survive Archive, feel like the one other than Survive have more overlap between each other, for example if you Archive something you'll almost always have Changed something, and Uniting a people is both a Change and is quite an Achievement

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

3. honor appears to have a unique surge present in bondsmith a and windrunners additionally bondsmith dedicated on ashyn which means adhesion must have been accessed but honor was not present and a dawnshard was.

I strongly dispute that. We have no idea how much natural leverage Shards have on their magic system adding a surge might be normal.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

Endowment is out because hoid was offered the shard of endowment and assuming he had this dawnshard at the shattering along with honor that means endowment cannot be in the same group as honor.

 

We don't know if hoid was ever offered the Shard of Endowment, we know it's the current shard that would tempt him the most. Honestly I think if he had accepted to become a Shard there'd be 17 Shards not counting us. Probably with one being linked to the four Dawnshards

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This all leaves us with honor, dominion, and devotion. All of these are effects that bind things. It is possible that odium is in this group if you consider that maybe it is in a two shard group with devotion as shards that unite for/against one pushing and one pulling but I think hatred being more divisive so this is debatable. I think odium would be in the group with ruin but this is a possible arrangement.

Ruin just works too much for Change and Odium not enough for me to agree

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Now for the dawnshards I think that the different dawnshard is likely either the one possessed by hoid or honor. Hoid because of the interesting effects it may have had on him but this may be explained by basically dawnshard savantism

There's always a chance Hoid used to hold the four and was the spearhead of the Adonalsium shattering weapon but if he had one then yes.

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Honor because of the unique surge associated with the dawnshard honor possessed and honor himself possesses as a consequence of that dawnshard potentially. This opens up a possibility that all people in honors 4 group have adhesion but this seems potentially unlikely since odium could be in that group and the fused who know of other shards specifically call it a surge of honor.

Actually, the Voidbinding chart does include a Void of Adhesion (and purple Windrunners for some reason), Odium is a lying liar. (or an idiot who cannot see enlightened windsprens are still windsprens)

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However it does not seem like cultivation has a unique surge and she seemingly possessed a dawnshard that means honors dawnshard is likely the unique one, so it is still possible all shards in honors group possess this power because they were created through a unique dawnshard this means odium is not in honors group if this is the case.

The other nine are mostly a mix of Honour and Cultivation with no pure surges yes (don't ask me what mostly means, ask Brandon)

Also the Surges are a Rosharan system only thing, shards from other system should "have surges"

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unity would fit this description and may be the dawnshard or at least soemthing similar which means dalinar may have it. Another possibility that may have been overlooked is that kaladin is actually in possession of this dawnshard and that is why he has other unexplained abilities however this would likely mean that the honor dawnshard is not different because he does not display bondsmithing abilities or he potentially does not have enough investiture to activate them.

I don't remember Kal having unexplained abilities that are not accidental wind manipulation (a part of Adhesion, the Surge of pressure) aside from the Thrill imunity which is probably from his bound with Syl

Quote

also cultivation is evil, Because I feel compelled to put that since in losing my mind thinking of cultivation conspiracy theories.

In my opinion either Korelia is worned by time and want to set up a new generation of Shard and go meet her husband or she's Taravangian but worse.

Edited February 9, 2021 by mathiau

[Valigus]

36 minutes ago, mathiau said:

One of my theories has been used in another theory? I'm honoured

Saying a Dawnshard belong to a Shard could be mistake. The Shard have a number of agreement and not becoming/not using a Dawnshard is probably one of them. I mean just imagine Ruin using the Change Dawnshard or Honour using the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creature alike?

Cord has heard ancestral stories of how Change got through the Peak's perpendicularity which implies it was not on Roshar before the destruction of Braize

Depending on how Dawnshard savantism works it would either be Change or something like Survive. If Dawnshard savantism works like on Roshar (you become what you use) it's Survive, if it's like Scadrial (you loose what you use, but gain more when using the power) it's Change

This one is fitted perfectly by Change. The Dawnshard Honour was raving about was probably the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creature alike; that I'll be calling Bind in the rest because otherwise it's a mouthful.

So, do I have an explanation of why I think it's Survive that doesn't require a dozen of disputed assumptions and two theories I've not yet shared with the 17th... Kind of

On the group of 4 thread when we tried to guess the Dawnshard's name, if you exclude the one the realy change the sequence a lot like Leuthi's Change Bind Create Destroy, you ended up with things one the line of Change Unite/Bind Survive Archive, feel like the one other than Survive have more overlap between each other, for example if you Archive something you'll almost always have Changed something, and Uniting a people is both a Change and is quite an Achievement

I strongly dispute that. We have no idea how much natural leverage Shards have on their magic system adding a surge might be normal.

We don't know if hoid was ever offered the Shard of Endowment, we know it's the current shard that would tempt him the most. Honestly I think if he had accepted to become a Shard there'd be 17 Shards not counting us. Probably with one being linked to the four Dawnshards

Ruin just works too much for Change and Odium not enough for me to agree

There's always a chance Hoid used to hold the four and was the spearhead of the Adonalsium shattering weapon but if he had one then yes.

Actually, the Voidbinding chart does include a Void of Adhesion (and purple Windrunners for some reason), Odium is a lying liar. (or an idiot who cannot see enlightened windsprens are still windsprens)

The other nine are mostly a mix of Honour and Cultivation with no pure surges yes (don't ask me what mostly means, ask Brandon)

Also the Surges are a Rosharan system only thing, shards from other system should "have surges"

I don't remember Kal having unexplained abilities that are not accidental wind manipulation (a part of Adhesion, the Surge of pressure) aside from the Thrill imunity which is probably from his bound with Syl

In my opinion either Korelia is worned by time and want to set up a new generation of Shard and go meet her husband or she's Taravangian but worse.

True but i mean belonged to her when they shattered adonalsium.

maybe but it must have happened long ago that it may as well be native, additionally it’s possible it was storied in the cognitive realm.

I think that it may just be a savantism thing would be immortality to all of them I think that create could also prevent the killing of people.

I don’t think it could be survive that doesn’t make much sense to me if it’s anything like survive I would call it conserve like the 1st law of thermodynamics. Because survive only really applies to life where as conserve applys to everything and is universal so I think that’s a lot better. Create makes no sense and neither does destroy because the law of thermodynamics exist and so that cannot be a Divine command.

I’m pretty sure that hoid was offered endowment he was in the group and so would have been offered a shard given that endowment is the shard he would be tempted by its safe to assume he was offered it, and also we have almsot. I information so we have to make some assumptions and this is fairly safe.

If shards could easily add additional surges and ones as insanely powerful as adhesion is they woudl eovand odium definitely would because he really really wants out. 
 

the surges are not a rosharan only thing there is surge binding on other planets there was surgebinding on ashyn, and on yolen on top of that it’s stated by odium the other shards have yet to discover its power. The surges are the FUNDAMENTAL forces of the universe they don’t just not exist rn.

Than voidbinding must not be what we think because according to the fused who would know this adhesion is honor only and after the tower attack we have tested evidence taht supports this claim so I think it’s more reasonable to believe this claim then dispute it. On top of the fact that a dawnshard/bondsmith is said to have caused ashyns destruction.

Kaladin does definitely have unexplained abilities because he has used abilities syl does not understand this is important because when he discovers new abilities it is like she always understood. She does not understand how he DEFLECTED a high storm. He also at one point had basically atium when he said he could have dodged the two shardbearers with his eyes closed his experience mirrors atium which there is no way he should be able to do. Some have theorized that he used adhesion to connect to the spiritual realm but he shouldn’t be able to do that sicne he isn’t a bondsmith unless he is because when has the unite dawnshard. That is certainly not wind manipulation additionally in rythm of war he displays an instance of super speed against he pursuer. Make no mistake there is something weird about kaladin. But the dawnshard idea is kinda crackpot I think a much much more likely explanation is that kaladin is getting a spiritual feedback loop (just like the one that makes it so that since he was going to become a spear master he was always gifted (and most likely this kinda thing is what made vin so naturally gifted as well)) but on a much higher power level maybe he will become a bondsmith or some other high power entity and this is working through the spiritual realm to grant him extra little abilities. This is much more likely but also less fun then him being a dawnshard.

cultivation is definitely setting up a new generation of shards she may have manipulate many more people I think to take up shard mantles but that’s not the point rn.

 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Valigus said:

they are tied to honor and cultivation specifically by the fused if we take their word considering their advanced cosmere awareness and age we may be able to.

Considering that the Fused think Honor and Cultivation invented gravity, I'm not so sure we can take their word on any of this

They also think that Investiture of Odium and Honor will annihilate on contact, for further examples of them not really understanding these concepts yet. 

43 minutes ago, Valigus said:

after the tower attack we have tested evidence taht supports this claim so I think it’s more reasonable to believe this claim then dispute it.

Lift's Progression worked just fine, and yet the Fused see nothing wrong with that Surge. And it's not solely Lift weirdness, because her Abrasion didn't work, indicating there's something up with Progression.

44 minutes ago, Valigus said:

She does not understand how he DEFLECTED a high storm.

Adhesion is the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. Via the windspren, he seems to have used it to do very complicated things he doesn't quite get yet.

45 minutes ago, Valigus said:

He also at one point had basically atium when he said he could have dodged the two shardbearers with his eyes closed his experience mirrors atium which there is no way he should be able to do

When was this? I don't remember it, but my memory's not great, so I probably just forgot.

46 minutes ago, Valigus said:

The surges are the FUNDAMENTAL forces of the universe they don’t just not exist rn.

They are what Rosharans believe to be fundamental. We've been told spren on other planets would grant a different set of powers based on what those people believe to be fundamental (for example, Earth could grant an electromagnetism Surge). 

49 minutes ago, Valigus said:

there was surgebinding on ashyn, and on yolen

Ashyn's part of the Rosharan system still, and it's not unreasonable to imagine they had a similar concept as the Rosharans, especially with a few Shards hanging out there. 

When do we hear that Yolen has Surges?

[Valigus]

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Considering that the Fused think Honor and Cultivation invented gravity, I'm not so sure we can take their word on any of this

They also think that Investiture of Odium and Honor will annihilate on contact, for further examples of them not really understanding these concepts yet. 

Lift's Progression worked just fine, and yet the Fused see nothing wrong with that Surge. And it's not solely Lift weirdness, because her Abrasion didn't work, indicating there's something up with Progression.

Adhesion is the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. Via the windspren, he seems to have used it to do very complicated things he doesn't quite get yet.

When was this? I don't remember it, but my memory's not great, so I probably just forgot.

They are what Rosharans believe to be fundamental. We've been told spren on other planets would grant a different set of powers based on what those people believe to be fundamental (for example, Earth could grant an electromagnetism Surge). 

Ashyn's part of the Rosharan system still, and it's not unreasonable to imagine they had a similar concept as the Rosharans, especially with a few Shards hanging out there. 

When do we hear that Yolen has Surges?

It’s likely that progression is closer to cultivation and that plus her life light worked together to help.

no we can’t take their word 100% but if we are to get anywhere in theorizing about something we know basically nothing about we have to make a few leaps to get there accepting what the fused say is one of the leaps that is the shortest it’s for more likely they are right then that survive and unity are dawnshards because people heard those whispers and someone declared themselves unity for example. 

(Note that dalinar really could be this bind dawnshard though and if he is he took it up in oathbringer when he was surrounded in the column of golden light(like Rysn with the gold light))

yes but if those were normal abilities syl would understand them every ability that hadn’t occurred in these weird unexplained situations syl as immediately understood once he accessed it that did not happen in any of these instances which indicates it is not that. Also we have yet to see anything that ineiviates adhesion is really about pressure and vacuum because it may not even be a natural surge that’s what khriss says is the case but that may just be the rational behind it, in fact if anything is the surge of pressure and vacuum shouldn’t it be tension? 
 

During the duel in words of radiance while fighting two shardbearers he begins dodging them perfectly and stated that he felt like he could have done that with his eyes closed, the sequence and feeling is described very similarly to atium or when spook jacked his senses up to a million.

I don’t think that changes the fundamental laws of the universe though what Sanderson meant by pure surges then is that each is limited by understanding like you go to a different planet the surges will be reshuffled versions of the same rules laws and concepts. If I had to bet “pure surges” would exist only on yolen or anywhere they have a very very good understanding of the universes laws a pure surge would be each power and aspectnof the surge sorted into its rightful place.

I also think we are told the surges are of honor and cultivation because they accessed them not created them and the fused don’t quite get that difference.

regardless it seems likely that at least one dawnshard grants bondsmithing, we are told that a bondsmith and a dawnshard destroyed ashyn at different points and we know of no other way to have a bondsmith on ashyn that makes sense rn. Change does not grant bondmsithing and therefore this “unite” or “bind” dawnshard is likely the unique one and the force by which the other 3 are bound into a cohesive whole. It also then makes sense that bondsmith are imitations of the power of this dawnshard. 

yolen has Lightweavers which means that the They have surgebinders, we have seen hoid use upload light weaving I believe but it seems substantially less useful then rosharan light weaving which seems to be way better from what we have seen of what can be assumed to be yolish lightweaving.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Valigus

[LewsTherinTelescope]

(Apology in advance for responding horribly out of order, putting it instead in the order of which I had responses for first)

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

Also we have yet to see anything that ineiviates adhesion is really about pressure and vacuum because it may not even be a natural surge that’s what khriss says is the case but that may just be the rational behind it, in fact if anything is the surge of pressure and vacuum shouldn’t it be tension?

Brandon has referred to Adhesion as pressure before, multiple times.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

yes but if those were normal abilities syl would understand them every ability that hadn’t occurred in these weird unexplained situations syl as immediately understood once he accessed it that did not happen in any of these instances which indicates it is not that.

Perhaps her old Radiant never got as far, or perhaps she won't understand until he fully hits the Ideal (which he now has), or perhaps it being the windspren actually performing the act makes it harder.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

regardless it seems likely that at least one dawnshard grants bondsmithing, we are told that a bondsmith and a dawnshard destroyed ashyn at different points and we know of no other way to have a bondsmith on ashyn that makes sense rn

It could also just mean that Ashyn had a proper magic system in the past. We know they had a magic system following the "same basic principles" as Surgebinding, though it's not quite the exact same. They've currently got diseases granting strong enough control over gravity to levitate cities, a proper magic system there granting a Bondsmith sounds fine to me.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

yolen has Lightweavers which means that the They have surgebinders

Khriss considers Sel to have Lightweaving too, but they don't have Surgebinding. It just means "any illusion magic", as far as we can tell.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

During the duel in words of radiance while fighting two shardbearers he begins dodging them perfectly and stated that he felt like he could have done that with his eyes closed, the sequence and feeling is described very similarly to atium or when spook jacked his senses up to a million.

Hmm, odd. Main thing I can think of is Light increasing his senses, plus maybe Connection Mumbo Jumbo. I'll need to look through his other fights for similar things.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

It’s likely that progression is closer to cultivation and that plus her life light worked together to help.

Sure, but doesn't that seem to point to the Fused not being fully correct in their stances here?

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

it’s for more likely they are right then that survive and unity are dawnshards because people heard those whispers and someone declared themselves unity for example

I mean, I don't believe in the latter theories either yet.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

I don’t think that changes the fundamental laws of the universe

Well, yes, but I don't think the Surges are the fundamental laws of the universe in the first place (besides in a philosophical manner, in that the categories are broad and metaphorical enough to technically encompass most things).

[Valigus]

40 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(Apology in advance for responding horribly out of order, putting it instead in the order of which I had responses for first)

Brandon has referred to Adhesion as pressure before, multiple times.

Perhaps her old Radiant never got as far, or perhaps she won't understand until he fully hits the Ideal (which he now has), or perhaps it being the windspren actually performing the act makes it harder.

It could also just mean that Ashyn had a proper magic system in the past. We know they had a magic system following the "same basic principles" as Surgebinding, though it's not quite the exact same. They've currently got diseases granting strong enough control over gravity to levitate cities, a proper magic system there granting a Bondsmith sounds fine to me.

Khriss considers Sel to have Lightweaving too, but they don't have Surgebinding. It just means "any illusion magic", as far as we can tell.

Hmm, odd. Main thing I can think of is Light increasing his senses, plus maybe Connection Mumbo Jumbo. I'll need to look through his other fights for similar things.

Sure, but doesn't that seem to point to the Fused not being fully correct in their stances here?

I mean, I don't believe in the latter theories either yet.

Well, yes, but I don't think the Surges are the fundamental laws of the universe in the first place (besides in a philosophical manner, in that the categories are broad and metaphorical enough to technically encompass most things).

I stand corrected on that point then.

that still does not seem to fit what is going on

maybe but we also have references to a dawnshard destroying ashyn and bondmsithing/surgebinding doing it so it seems very possible that the dawnshard grants bondsmithing abilities.

that’s possible but granted that it’s yolen I am more inclined to believe they had surgebinding since it’s the strongest magic system we have yet to see in the cosmere.

yeah my crackpot rn is that this is dawnshard peers but I think it is far more likely that this and other odd powers are a connection feedback loop like I said earlier that fits a bit more though dawnshard maybe explains some of the son of tanavast more. But i think it’s far more likely that kaladin had these weird powers because he becomes s bondsmith or a shard or splinter of honor or whatever and because of this he has residual effects of that power already.

potentially but once again we have to assume some things to begin to even theorize at all and this is one thing I think we need to take for granted, but I think it should also be pointed out singer forms are likely to be from cultivation and because fused have special forms they probably have some amount of cultivation going on still meaning that may be why they have progression.

yeah I don’t either but my point is it’s a lot less of a leap to believe that the fused are right for the purposes of theorizing then go unity and survive are dawnshards cause they whisper like change did. But because we more or less have to take a leap somewhere to get to any conclusion other then we just have no clue I think that believing the fused is the shortest of the leaps or least improbable assumption to get some answers.

I do think the surges are the fundamental laws though, we have never seen surgebinding on another planet, and we have never heard of it except for the implication of it being present on yolen. At the moment we have seen every surge behaving relatively the same across what seems to be 3 magic systems with each having a cognitive, spiritual and physical aspect. Our only outlier appears to be renarin but his illumination surge Fitz pretty well with what spiritual illumination might look like.

I think the surges are the fundamental laws of the universe or at the very least we can assume that because it fits what we have seen. Adhesion is weird though and I think is what binds the other laws together. Like when the fused say cultivation to make it nature and honor to bind it into law I think adhesion is the way possibly not honor but adonalsoum bound it into law.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 minutes ago, Valigus said:

maybe but we also have references to a dawnshard destroying ashyn and bondmsithing/surgebinding doing it so it seems very possible that the dawnshard grants bondsmithing abilities.

"It seems very possible" is a pretty different matter from "no other way makes sense", though.

9 minutes ago, Valigus said:

that’s possible but granted that it’s yolen I am more inclined to believe they had surgebinding since it’s the strongest magic system we have yet to see in the cosmere.

I mean, it feels more likely to me that they just have a different magic system altogether, personally, though there may be some parallels, the way fabrials have parallels to Allomancy and the various forms of healing across the Cosmere all have similarities in their function.

12 minutes ago, Valigus said:

yeah I don’t either but my point is it’s a lot less of a leap to believe that the fused are right for the purposes of theorizing then go unity and survive are dawnshards cause they whisper like change did.

Sure, it's a smaller leap, but I feel the Fused have demonstrated a clear enough lack of knowledge to not really be able to take what they say at face value at all. I do believe there's a kernel of truth to some of it, but I don't feel it's any more than a kernel.

14 minutes ago, Valigus said:

singer forms are likely to be from cultivation

I don't fully agree, though I partly do. I feel it's much more likely to be a mix of H&C, though maybe leaning one or the other. But they use spren from both in the forms we know.

16 minutes ago, Valigus said:

I do think the surges are the fundamental laws though, we have never seen surgebinding on another planet, and we have never heard of it except for the implication of it being present on yolen.

I may be misunderstanding your argument, but I don't understand how "we've never seen it anywhere else" is evidence for it being fundamental?

17 minutes ago, Valigus said:

At the moment we have seen every surge behaving relatively the same across what seems to be 3 magic systems with each having a cognitive, spiritual and physical aspect.

What three are these? Fused, Radiants, something else?

18 minutes ago, Valigus said:

yeah my crackpot rn is that this is dawnshard peers but I think it is far more likely that this and other odd powers are a connection feedback loop like I said earlier

Fair enough, I've got weirder crackpots xD

[Valigus]

20 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

"It seems very possible" is a pretty different matter from "no other way makes sense", though.

I mean, it feels more likely to me that they just have a different magic system altogether, personally, though there may be some parallels, the way fabrials have parallels to Allomancy and the various forms of healing across the Cosmere all have similarities in their function.

Sure, it's a smaller leap, but I feel the Fused have demonstrated a clear enough lack of knowledge to not really be able to take what they say at face value at all. I do believe there's a kernel of truth to some of it, but I don't feel it's any more than a kernel.

I don't fully agree, though I partly do. I feel it's much more likely to be a mix of H&C, though maybe leaning one or the other. But they use spren from both in the forms we know.

I may be misunderstanding your argument, but I don't understand how "we've never seen it anywhere else" is evidence for it being fundamental?

What three are these? Fused, Radiants, something else?

Fair enough, I've got weirder crackpots xD

True but it’s a fairly solid connection in a area of theories where the only concrete info is “there are 4 dawnshards” “hoid had a dawnshard” “one is change” and “they were used to create the cosmere”

thats fair but I think the parallels will be fairly tight for surgebinding. I think the big difference may be that surgebinding roshar may be stronger because of the limitations like is suggested here. That could be way rosharan system surgebinding can destroy worlds as well.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Sleepless ARE capable of Radiant bonds. (I believe the back jacket of the first book implies as much, if I remember correctly.) However, things they at first thought were great are making them increasingly worried, for reasons that will come up (not related to them specifically) in this book and the next.

Soulcasting via a fabrial is way, way less dangerous than Radiant Soulcasting--which is in turn far less dangerous than unbound Soulcasting (meaning without oaths.)

Possible true

i agree they probably aren’t 100% right but to arrive at any conclusions I’ve got to assume something and this is what I’m assuming is the case since it’s the smallest leap

maybe but they always trick me as more of a cultivation thing

im saying that everything we have seen suggest it to be fundamental on roshar and it would be weird for one planet to have different fundamental laws

well the theee magic systems names are voidbinding, surgebinding/radiants and the old magic I think so we know nothing about void binding except it comes form the unmade and is probably what renarin is doing. The old magic is whatever cultivation and presumably lift does. fused I’m not really sure they seem weird they don’t fit with the voidbinding chart but that could just be totally bogus and they are the only void surge users we see so I guess they are void binders it seems weird that we wouldn’t have it at this point but if they aren’t voidbidners renarin is probably the wonky example of one we have. Unless this is a possibility taravodium will relate void binding and it isn’t already a thing maybe or odium scrapped it and he will bring it back.

yeah I’ve had some weirder ones too my running theories to explain kaladins weirdness are 

1. Dawnshard that binds

2. splinter of honor

3. connection feedback loop because he becomes a bondsmith or honor or another shard probably valor or soemthing else later and this is residue form that leaking back in time through the spiritual realm.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Valigus said:

fused I’m not really sure they seem weird they don’t fit with the voidbinding chart but that could just be totally bogus and they are the only void surge users we see so I guess they are void binders it seems weird that we wouldn’t have it at this point but if they aren’t voidbidners renarin is probably the wonky example of one we have.

The main things we know in this department are:

1. Khriss would consider the Fused to be Surgebinders, and does consider Voidbinding a separate thing from Surgebinding.
2. What Renarin does isn't exactly Voidbinding, but is close enough Brandon pointed Argent to the Voidbinding chart to explain what Renarin does.
3. Voidbinding has been partially explored in the past, but never fully.

4 minutes ago, Valigus said:

im saying that everything we have seen suggest it to be fundamental on roshar

They are fundamental to the magic system, sure, but I don't see them as actually fundamental forces. What even is Trasnformation as a force, or Transportation, or Adhesion? They represent concepts that from a philosophical point of view could be argued to be fundamental, but aren't really "fundamental forces", I feel.

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

i agree they probably aren’t 100% right but to arrive at any conclusions I’ve got to assume something and this is what I’m assuming is the case since it’s the smallest leap

Fair enough. While I disagree, I can see the argument for doing that.

7 minutes ago, Valigus said:

thats fair but I think the parallels will be fairly tight for surgebinding.

I sort of agree, but not fully. One thing I'd note is there do seem to be some large differences: example, Hoid has to use sand, etc to twist into the illusions, he can't just make one.

9 minutes ago, Valigus said:

The old magic is whatever cultivation and presumably lift does.

I would strongly disagree with the Old Magic being a "magic system" (or being what Lift is doing). I'd just call the Old Magic direct intervention by a powerful being, which got called the Old Magic because it's really old.

10 minutes ago, Valigus said:

maybe but they always trick me as more of a cultivation thing

I'd guess it probably leans Cultivation, but would also say it seems to have both Shards involved to an extent.

[Valigus]

26 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The main things we know in this department are:

1. Khriss would consider the Fused to be Surgebinders, and does consider Voidbinding a separate thing from Surgebinding.
2. What Renarin does isn't exactly Voidbinding, but is close enough Brandon pointed Argent to the Voidbinding chart to explain what Renarin does.
3. Voidbinding has been partially explored in the past, but never fully.

They are fundamental to the magic system, sure, but I don't see them as actually fundamental forces. What even is Trasnformation as a force, or Transportation, or Adhesion? They represent concepts that from a philosophical point of view could be argued to be fundamental, but aren't really "fundamental forces", I feel.

Fair enough. While I disagree, I can see the argument for doing that.

I sort of agree, but not fully. One thing I'd note is there do seem to be some large differences: example, Hoid has to use sand, etc to twist into the illusions, he can't just make one.

I would strongly disagree with the Old Magic being a "magic system" (or being what Lift is doing). I'd just call the Old Magic direct intervention by a powerful being, which got called the Old Magic because it's really old.

I'd guess it probably leans Cultivation, but would also say it seems to have both Shards involved to an extent.

That true the fused and voidbinding are weird. But what renarin does if it’s close to voidbinding the surges must still act similarly. But also what does khriss know of voidbinding considering how rare and unexplored it appears to be

that’s fair but I think it would be possible to go really deep and identify what each is.

I can see why you would disagree but I can’t really think of a way to come up with anything other then we have no clue without assuming something.

that’s true I didn’t think of that, but I think maybe that goes back to the surgebinding being stronger the yolish Lightweaving seems much weaker because I think they don’t make a trade off like I said about the oaths it makes sense to me that it’s weak because they haven’t made the trade off of oaths that limit them as well. Sanderson magic systems that tend to have more limitations tend to be stronger normally which is why I think radiants are probably the strongest surgebinding form we will see because the oaths are such a huge limiting factor that radiants get more power for this limitation which could be why yolish light weaving seems way worse then rosharan Lightweaving. But this doesn’t work. I think hoid uses these aids because the illusions aren’t enough to get the visual across.

yeah we don’t know anything about the old magic but roshar is supposed to have 3 Magic’s so the third is either fabriels or the old magic.

I would agree in the sense that anything happening on a planet where two shards have been cooperating for so long has something to do with both of them always in some sense but I think it’s mostly cultivation.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Valigus

[mathiau he/him]

6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The main things we know in this department are:

1. Khriss would consider the Fused to be Surgebinders, and does consider Voidbinding a separate thing from Surgebinding.
2. What Renarin does isn't exactly Voidbinding, but is close enough Brandon pointed Argent to the Voidbinding chart to explain what Renarin does.
3. Voidbinding has been partially explored in the past, but never fully.

When was it stated Renarin isn't exaclty Voidbinding?

18 minutes ago, Valigus said:

well the theee magic systems names are voidbinding, surgebinding/radiants and the old magic I think so we know nothing about void binding except it comes form the unmade and is probably what renarin is doing.

There's also Cultivation's 10 centric magic system, of which fabrials are a part of.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

maybe but we also have references to a dawnshard destroying ashyn and bondmsithing/surgebinding doing it so it seems very possible that the dawnshard grants bondsmithing abilities.

By themself Dawnshards don't grant anything except an Heightening, at least the third and probably the fifth (I'm not sure whether has Rysn has shown any traces of lifesense)

14 hours ago, Valigus said:

Kaladin does definitely have unexplained abilities because he has used abilities syl does not understand this is important because when he discovers new abilities it is like she always understood. She does not understand how he DEFLECTED a high storm.

She understand mainstream Radiants abilities. It's likely the fact that adhesion was more than just creating vacuum wasn't know buy much if any. And yes deflecting a high storm is explainable by

Quote

He also at one point had basically atium when he said he could have dodged the two shardbearers with his eyes closed his experience mirrors atium which there is no way he should be able to do. Some have theorized that he used adhesion to connect to the spiritual realm but he shouldn’t be able to do that sicne he isn’t a bondsmith unless he is because when has the unite dawnshard.

Or unless we're wrong about Windrunners not having access to Spiritual Adhesion

Quote

That is certainly not wind manipulation additionally in rythm of war he displays an instance of super speed against he pursuer.

I don't remember that moment, when was it?

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

yeah we don’t know anything about the old magic but roshar is supposed to have 3 Magic’s so the third is either fabriels or the old magic.

Actually, no, there are four

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

When was it stated Renarin isn't exaclty Voidbinding?

The Argent WoB:

Quote

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

By themself Dawnshards don't grant anything except an Heightening, at least the third and probably the fifth (I'm not sure whether has Rysn has shown any traces of lifesense)

Something to note: the Heightenings aren't discrete levels. Even a single Breath increases your senses and such. So we can't say for certain that she's even First Heightening.

10 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember that moment, when was it?

Probably talking about when he has the glowing red-yellow eyes, when Lirin is taken?

13 minutes ago, Valigus said:

But also what does khriss know of voidbinding considering how rare and unexplored it appears to be

She knows there's ten levels and that it's somehow a cousin to the Old Magic, but what any of that means, I have no idea

14 minutes ago, Valigus said:

yeah we don’t know anything about the old magic but roshar is supposed to have 3 Magic’s so the third is either fabriels or the old magic.

Brandon's said the third is fabrials. (Which is weird, since he's also said that you could consider there to be 30 magics, which would imply fabrials are ten-based somehow...)

15 minutes ago, Valigus said:

I would agree in the sense that anything happening on a planet where two shards have been cooperating for so long has something to do with both of them always in some sense but I think it’s mostly cultivation.

Fair. I don't quite agree, but it seems we disagree more in matter of degree than actually disagreeing fully.

16 minutes ago, Valigus said:

I can see why you would disagree but I can’t really think of a way to come up with anything other then we have no clue without assuming something.

Yeah, fair. We don't have much of anything to go off, and my theories on Dawnshards are... not really well-formed.

 

[Valigus]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

When was it stated Renarin isn't exaclty Voidbinding?

There's also Cultivation's 10 centric magic system, of which fabrials are a part of.

By themself Dawnshards don't grant anything except an Heightening, at least the third and probably the fifth (I'm not sure whether has Rysn has shown any traces of lifesense)

She understand mainstream Radiants abilities. It's likely the fact that adhesion was more than just creating vacuum wasn't know buy much if any. And yes deflecting a high storm is explainable by

Or unless we're wrong about Windrunners not having access to Spiritual Adhesion

I don't remember that moment, when was it?

Actually, no, there are four

No by itself the one dawnshard that has been shown granted that we know that one dawnshard is certainly different form the others. We also know a dawnshard appears to have helped destroy ashyn and that bondsmith were also involved it would make sense if they gained this through a dawnshard since adhesion comes from honor. Which makes this leaky the different one.

no other windrunners have shown acess to spiritual adhesion so it seems likely that it’s a weird kaladin thing. Because we know he is special independent of his radiant ness because son of tanavast.

That is true so any special adhesion things are different it’s also possible this is the rosharan philosophy of adhesion more then it’s application because seemingly only kaladin in thousands of years has used it this way.

when he is standing over texts body and lezian attacks him he jumps into the air and proceeds to move so quickly that the people around him struggle to follow the movements. This is an anomalous amount of speed which he has never previously displayed he has always been fast but this is described supernaturally fast.

Quote

“Moving with such speed that Venli had trouble tracking”

Quote

“Kaladin moved like the wind, fast and flowing”

Ok so old magic is more like what he said earlier and should be off to the side.

[Valigus]

11 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The Argent WoB:

 

Something to note: the Heightenings aren't discrete levels. Even a single Breath increases your senses and such. So we can't say for certain that she's even First Heightening.

Probably talking about when he has the glowing red-yellow eyes, when Lirin is taken?

She knows there's ten levels and that it's somehow a cousin to the Old Magic, but what any of that means, I have no idea

Brandon's said the third is fabrials. (Which is weird, since he's also said that you could consider there to be 30 magics, which would imply fabrials are ten-based somehow...)

Fair. I don't quite agree, but it seems we disagree more in matter of degree than actually disagreeing fully.

Yeah, fair. We don't have much of anything to go off, and my theories on Dawnshards are... not really well-formed.

 

Yeah idk what she would know about voidbinding.

yeah idk how fabriels are ten based maybe gems or something idk.

yeah I agree with that assessment I can see why you woudl think it’s more honor but I don’t feel like it seems that honor related.

yeah I’m trying to figure out the most information or come up with the best theory with the fewest possible assumptions. These aren’t gonna be perfect but I think I can at least hit the edge of the target doing this.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Valigus

[LewsTherinTelescope]

11 minutes ago, Valigus said:

yeah I agree with that assessment I can see why you woudl think it’s more honor but I don’t feel like it seems that honor related.

I don't think it's more Honor, just that there seems to be some Honor involved (example, they use spren made of Honor, but there's no sign of it being an "unnatural" extension the way there is with Voidspren).

[Valigus]

7 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't think it's more Honor, just that there seems to be some Honor involved (example, they use spren made of Honor, but there's no sign of it being an "unnatural" extension the way there is with Voidspren).

Yeah but When I say more honor I mean Relstively more honor then I do like you think honor is involved in a higher percentage of the thing then me not that it’s more honor then cultivation.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Yeah but When I say more honor I mean Relstively more honor then I do like you think honor is involved in a higher percentage of the thing then me not that it’s more honor then cultivation.

Ah, okay

[mathiau he/him]

30 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The Argent WoB:

I'm reading it as "Voidbinding is not just the visions but is similar", both his Illumination and Progression have temporal effects

Quote

Something to note: the Heightenings aren't discrete levels. Even a single Breath increases your senses and such. So we can't say for certain that she's even First Heightening.

Fair point. I was thinking 5th because agelessness is a know effect of Dawnshards and you become truly ageless and not just long-lived at the 5th

Quote

Probably talking about when he has the glowing red-yellow eyes, when Lirin is taken?

So, the moment when he has access to Gravitation as is probably Voidbinding?

Quote

She knows there's ten levels and that it's somehow a cousin to the Old Magic, but what any of that means, I have no idea

Brandon's said the third is fabrials. (Which is weird, since he's also said that you could consider there to be 30 magics, which would imply fabrials are ten-based somehow...)

Maybe there's only ten usable metal?

Quote

“Moving with such speed that Venli had trouble tracking”

Quote

“Kaladin moved like the wind, fast and flowing”

He does that literally all the time, what chapter are you talking about?

36 minutes ago, Valigus said:

No by itself the one dawnshard that has been shown granted that we know that one dawnshard is certainly different form the others. We also know a dawnshard appears to have helped destroy ashyn and that bondsmith were also involved it would make sense if they gained this through a dawnshard since adhesion comes from honor. Which makes this leaky the different one.

We know Odium tempted Ishar to experiment with the Surges, not just the Dawnshard. And that he was not the only one too blame.

It is indeed conceivable the Dawnshard that's different would be leaky.

[Valigus]

18 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I'm reading it as "Voidbinding is not just the visions but is similar", both his Illumination and Progression have temporal effects

Fair point. I was thinking 5th because agelessness is a know effect of Dawnshards and you become truly ageless and not just long-lived at the 5th

So, the moment when he has access to Gravitation as is probably Voidbinding?

Maybe there's only ten usable metal?

He does that literally all the time, what chapter are you talking about?

We know Odium tempted Ishar to experiment with the Surges, not just the Dawnshard. And that he was not the only one too blame.

It is indeed conceivable the Dawnshard that's different would be leaky.

He may or may not have been void-binding but the speed described is certainly supernatural, he had been described to be fast but this and just the way it plays out makes it seem not normal even for him. He has is moving so fast that a person who must have killed some of the greatest champions humanity on roshar has ever known wihthout that person cannot react in any way except to run away. Yes he is often described this way but his speed has never been as impressive before when we really think about the situation here. In other situations he has been fast but not so fast that others couldn’t react and those were people of a much lower caliber then the pursuer who is probably one of the most dangerous fused fighters we see and he dispatched him so easily and so quickly lezian could do nothing all while kaladin was severely off balanced.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

just to clarify, roshar, singers, and spren were originally created by adonalsium, not honor and cultivation. i'm pretty sure that singer forms are also from adonalsium

[mathiau he/him]

32 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

just to clarify, roshar, singers, and spren were originally created by adonalsium, not honor and cultivation. i'm pretty sure that singer forms are also from adonalsium

Not confirmed for the Singers, unless I'm wrong. And anyway now that big A is shattered everythnig is of the Shards, even what Ado did.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, mathiau said:

Not confirmed for the Singers, unless I'm wrong. And anyway now that big A is shattered everythnig is of the Shards, even what Ado did.

I would say this WoB strongly implies they were created alongside the planet.

Quote

coltonx9

Do the singers predate the highstorms?

Brandon Sanderson

The singers and the highstorms are-- The highstorms-- Let's say no. Trying to decide which one came first. They were created, right? But the highstorms were created as part of Roshar, as well. The highstorms predate humans arriving. Highstorms predate the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

[mathiau he/him]

On 09/02/2021 at 3:53 AM, Valigus said:

I’m pretty sure that hoid was offered endowment he was in the group and so would have been offered a shard given that endowment is the shard he would be tempted by its safe to assume he was offered it, and also we have almsot. I information so we have to make some assumptions and this is fairly safe.

Hoid could be tempeted by Endowment but could Hoid tempt Endowment? He could tempt Whimsy and maybe Ambition but Endowment?

17 hours ago, Valigus said:

He may or may not have been void-binding but the speed described is certainly supernatural, he had been described to be fast but this and just the way it plays out makes it seem not normal even for him. He has is moving so fast that a person who must have killed some of the greatest champions humanity on roshar has ever known wihthout that person cannot react in any way except to run away. Yes he is often described this way but his speed has never been as impressive before when we really think about the situation here. In other situations he has been fast but not so fast that others couldn’t react and those were people of a much lower caliber then the pursuer who is probably one of the most dangerous fused fighters we see and he dispatched him so easily and so quickly lezian could do nothing all while kaladin was severely off balanced.

Precise and fast manipulation of the basic lashing seems like it could do that. It seems to me that Lezian didn't go against the Heralds so there's possibly a point at which he consider his enemies too powerful to challenge

8 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I would say this WoB strongly implies they were created alongside the planet.

Ok, seems close enough to a confirmation

Edited February 10, 2021 by mathiau

[KSub]

I can appreciate how much work went into this post, and also how much went into the discussion that follows. 

I have a few issues with some of your assumptions. Most have already been discussed, but one point which came up in the latest shardcast is the nature of surgebinding. I recommend you check out the  Video.

In the video they go deep into what surges are. The summarized version is surges are the natural laws of the universe. Honor bound particular surges, limiting what someone could do with the surges and how they could access those surges. 

The important takeaway is that all magic in the cosmere makes use of surges. Surgebinding is what was done on Roshar to limit the use of surges and so that is the only reason it is unique to Honor and Cultivation. If Honor is the power of bonds then no dawnshards are needed.