El is Odium's Champion

[Guest Parallax]

Based on the epigraphs from Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days, I would be very surprised if anyone besides El is Odium's champion. 

1. Why are these ten days "final"? Beside the possible inconvenience of relocating from Alethkar and Herdaz, the Fused face no consequences from the contest of champions. So these are the final ten days for the person writing those lines: El.

2. From the text of the epigraphs we know El was out of favor when Rayse was the vessel (and it is very likely that Vyre was El's original title based on his encounter with Lezian). It seems with Taravangian holding the shard (whom El calls "newest Odium") his circumstances will change

Putting 1 & 2 together: Taravangian has chosen El as his champion (someone Rayse would not have chosen) with the promise of a great reward if he were to win the contest. That is why these are El's final ten days, either he dies or he defeats Dalinar and is rewarded by being elevated beyond being a Fused.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Based on the epigraphs from Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days, I would be very surprised if anyone besides El is Odium's champion. 

1. Why are these ten days "final"? Beside the possible inconvenience of relocating from Alethkar and Herdaz, the Fused face no consequences from the contest of champions. So these are the final ten days for the person writing those lines: El.

If they were, how would he know? And of course the Fused are facing enormous consequences. Odium could be set free. The cycle of Desolations is over. And they can either live peaceful lives and develop their Singer brothers or head out into the Cosmere leading an army of Odium.

 

[Guest Parallax]

@Oltux72 the key word is "final". If Odium wins it is not the end of the Fused, they will have to obey Odium's orders including where to go, which is the same as it is now and would still be true if Odium loses. And the cycle of desolations has ended, if a Fused is killed they come back right away during the next Everstorm.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Parallax said:

@Oltux72 the key word is "final". If Odium wins it is not the end of the Fused, they will have to obey Odium's orders including where to go, which is the same as it is now and would still be true if Odium loses. And the cycle of desolations has ended, if a Fused is killed they come back right away during the next Everstorm.

But it is the end. They need willing Singer bodies to come back. With the war ending, the supply will dry out. This is it, the end of an era.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think that there are two likely explanations for "the ten final days":

1. El survives the Contest, champion or not, and Roshar is changed forever by the result of the Contest. Thus, it would be the "final ten days" of the current Rosharan world order, and El names his book in the aftermath of writing it (which means after the Contest).

2. El assumes that this will be the Final Ten Days of Roshar as it currently is, and names the book based on that guess.

[Elegy he/him]

It's not necessarily El who calls them the Final Ten Days, or is it? Maybe it's what historians call them afterwards. "Ah yes, the musings that El wrote down on the Final Ten Days before [something significant] happened! I'll collect them with that heading."

Edited December 15, 2020 by Elegy

[Guest Parallax]

On 12/13/2020 at 10:19 AM, Oltux72 said:

But it is the end. They need willing Singer bodies to come back. With the war ending, the supply will dry out. This is it, the end of an era.

They needed willing Singer bodies before the agreement and they need willing Singer bodies in the ten days until the contest as well. And why would the supply dry out? For Singers, the Fused are their gods. Also without an ongoing war there wouldn't be any Fused deaths to begin with. 

On 12/14/2020 at 7:36 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

I think that there are two likely explanations for "the ten final days":

1. El survives the Contest, champion or not, and Roshar is changed forever by the result of the Contest. Thus, it would be the "final ten days" of the current Rosharan world order, and El names his book in the aftermath of writing it (which means after the Contest).

2. El assumes that this will be the Final Ten Days of Roshar as it currently is, and names the book based on that guess.

How will Roshar change? Regardless of who wins the contest, Odium will be bound to Roshar, hostilities will end and the Everstorm will continue (which means the Fused can be reborn without Odium's help). The only issues are ownership of Alethkat, Herdaz and Dalinar's soul. 

If El is not Odium's champion, he doesn't need to survive anything. The most he has to do is to move from Kholinar to Kasitor or Vedenar. 

On 12/14/2020 at 7:46 AM, Elegy said:

It's not necessarily El who calls them the Final Ten Days, or is it? Maybe it's what historians call them afterwards. "Ah yes, the musings that El wrote down on the Final Ten Days before [something significant] happened! I'll collect them with that heading."

That is possible but very unlikely given the content of epigraphs. El is either talking to Odium or to himself, so how did a historian get access to it? In which era does this future historian live? Why are we getting excerpts from a future book which would be a first for Stormlight Archive I believe.  

[Elegy he/him]

On 15.12.2020 at 3:46 PM, Parallax said:

That is possible but very unlikely given the content of epigraphs. El is either talking to Odium or to himself, so how did a historian get access to it? In which era does this future historian live? Why are we getting excerpts from a future book which would be a first for Stormlight Archive I believe.  

It wouldn't be a first: We got the Oathbringer excerpts in the first part of that book. The in-world book still isn't finished by the time of Rhythm of War. Similarly, Navani's journal in part one of Words of Radiance describes events that happen at the end of that one's fifth part.

All of the epigraphs up to this point have always been some sort of documents (with the letters to the Shards being somewhat debatable, uniquely), so it seems logical that these musings have been collected somewhere. Also, El talks of Odium in the third person, so he's not talking to him (Edit: Oops, no, he doesn't. I somehow missed that! Sorry for that). To me it seems like some sort of journal like Navani's aforementioned one in Words of Radiance.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Elegy

[+Oltux72 he/him]

51 minutes ago, Parallax said:

They needed willing Singer bodies before the agreement and they need willing Singer bodies in the ten days until the contest as well.

For now a war is going on and the Singers are ex-slaves, many of whom have a good reason to hate humans. You will get patriots who are ready to sacrifice themselves and you can promise their families benefits. Once the Fused cease the fight against the Radiants, that is over.

51 minutes ago, Parallax said:

And why would the supply dry out?

You need to be suicidal. And they cannot just harvest people. They have to be eager to take in a spirit.

51 minutes ago, Parallax said:

For Singers, the Fused are their gods. Also without an ongoing war there wouldn't be any Fused deaths to begin with. 

Fused inhabit Singer bodies. They are mortal. Within a few decades they will die.

51 minutes ago, Parallax said:

How will Roshar change? Regardless of who wins the contest, Odium will be bound to Roshar, hostilities will end and the Everstorm will continue (which means the Fused can be reborn without Odium's help). The only issues are ownership of Alethkat, Herdaz and Dalinar's soul. 

Unless the newest Odium finds a loophole and is not bound any longer. And that is his goal.

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

2 hours ago, Parallax said:

How will Roshar change? Regardless of who wins the contest, Odium will be bound to Roshar, hostilities will end and the Everstorm will continue (which means the Fused can be reborn without Odium's help). The only issues are ownership of Alethkat, Herdaz and Dalinar's soul. 

If El is not Odium's champion, he doesn't need to survive anything. The most he has to do is to move from Kholinar to Kasitor or Vedenar.

I doubt it will be this easy. It's a Brandon book, and it won't go as we expect. 

[Guest Parallax]

On 12/15/2020 at 10:10 AM, Elegy said:

It wouldn't be a first: We got the Oathbringer excerpts in the first part of that book. The in-world book still isn't finished by the time of Rhythm of War. Similarly, Navani's journal in part one of Words of Radiance describes events that happen at the end of that one's fifth part.

But those are all within the timeframe of the corresponding Stormlight book, what you are positing is a future book which I find much less likely. 

On 12/15/2020 at 10:43 AM, Oltux72 said:

For now a war is going on and the Singers are ex-slaves, many of whom have a good reason to hate humans. You will get patriots who are ready to sacrifice themselves and you can promise their families benefits. Once the Fused cease the fight against the Radiants, that is over.

You need to be suicidal. And they cannot just harvest people. They have to be eager to take in a spirit.

Fused inhabit Singer bodies. They are mortal. Within a few decades they will die.

First there are singers who are true believers and will sacrifice for their gods and it shouldn't be hard to convince singers that they can't trust humans to keep their words so they need Fused around.

The Fused can heal using Voidlight, why would they die within a few decades? They should have very long lifespans if not practically immortal. 

On 12/15/2020 at 0:33 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt it will be this easy. It's a Brandon book, and it won't go as we expect. 

For RoW fans correctly predicted Navani binding the Sibling, Kaladin swearing the fourth ideal and the content of the fourth ideal. 

[Elegy he/him]

19 minutes ago, Parallax said:

But those are all within the timeframe of the corresponding Stormlight book, what you are positing is a future book which I find much less likely. 

That depends. Like I said, Oathbringer is still a "future book" in Rhythm of War, technically, and I'm sure it won't even be released in the time frame of book 5, given that Jasnah still needs to write the annotations.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Rhythm of War end on the last day before the Final Ten Days? So El's musings on the first of those are not within the timeframe of this book anyway.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

5 hours ago, Parallax said:

For RoW fans correctly predicted Navani binding the Sibling, Kaladin swearing the fourth ideal and the content of the fourth ideal. 

Fair enough, although the Kaladin stuff was pretty strongly hinted at, and Navani was the natural fit for a spren focused on the science of Urithiru. No one predicted Moash killing Teft, Restares being Kalak, Rayse dying by Taravangian with Nightblood, or the main plot being the occupation of Urithiru though, which were all way more shocking to me.

[coolsnow7]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:25 AM, Parallax said:

Based on the epigraphs from Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days, I would be very surprised if anyone besides El is Odium's champion. 

1. Why are these ten days "final"? Beside the possible inconvenience of relocating from Alethkar and Herdaz, the Fused face no consequences from the contest of champions. So these are the final ten days for the person writing those lines: El.

2. From the text of the epigraphs we know El was out of favor when Rayse was the vessel (and it is very likely that Vyre was El's original title based on his encounter with Lezian). It seems with Taravangian holding the shard (whom El calls "newest Odium") his circumstances will change

Putting 1 & 2 together: Taravangian has chosen El as his champion (someone Rayse would not have chosen) with the promise of a great reward if he were to win the contest. That is why these are El's final ten days, either he dies or he defeats Dalinar and is rewarded by being elevated beyond being a Fused.

There’s something here. In particular, Moash going blind probably signifies either a weakness that renders him unfit to be champion, or Odium’s disfavor. This would be stronger if we thought that Moash would be Rayse’s champion, which we don’t have great reasons for thinking; but if we stipulate that Moash would be Rayse’s 3rd choice, after Dalinar and Kaladin, then the shift in favor to El is clear.

The other thing that’s missing, though, is: why is this such a cunning maneuver that Rayse wouldn’t have contemplated? It’s clear that it wouldn’t have served Rayse’s goals of “not just winning but winning in a way that makes a statement” in that El is just some Fused, he’s not one of the greatest followers of Honor brought down to Rayse’s level. But what is the angle that makes El such a terrifying adversary, and how will choosing him get TOdium off the planet? 
 

Of course we don’t need answers to that right away - if this is right, we’ll find out why in the next book.

And if I were to guess, “He Who Silences” doesn’t refer to silencing people or Heralds, but silencing the rhythms themselves. My guess is that El lost his title and rhythms by going too far and threatening Roshar in some way, and will present that sort of conundrum at the contest of champions. EG he has some connection (maybe Connection) with Roshar in such a way that if he dies Roshar collapses too. That would force the humans into a situation where even if they win, their planet gets destroyed like Ashyn. And this makes the tie-in with the Recreance and the Shin much clearer as well...

I’ve gotten a bit ahead of myself but yes I like this theory a lot, as weak as it is right now.

A good question to ask Brandon: “what metal does El use to replace his horns?” If he RAFOs that, that alone signals that El is very important and nuances like that would spoil the plot. But if the answer is eg aluminum, then we know that the “silencing” is much more profound than just killing people or Heralds or whatever. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by coolsnow7

[Guest Parallax]

On 12/20/2020 at 0:25 PM, Elegy said:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Rhythm of War end on the last day before the Final Ten Days? So El's musings on the first of those are not within the timeframe of this book anyway.

Lezian tells El that he barely spent a day on Braize before being reborn so I think the final day in the story is the first of the Final Ten Days. 

On 12/20/2020 at 5:33 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

Fair enough, although the Kaladin stuff was pretty strongly hinted at, and Navani was the natural fit for a spren focused on the science of Urithiru. No one predicted Moash killing Teft, Restares being Kalak, Rayse dying by Taravangian with Nightblood, or the main plot being the occupation of Urithiru though, which were all way more shocking to me.

Let me turn this around: if El is Odium's champion on SA5 wouldn't you say that it was "strongly hinted at" in RoW?

On 12/21/2020 at 2:24 AM, coolsnow7 said:

The other thing that’s missing, though, is: why is this such a cunning maneuver that Rayse wouldn’t have contemplated? It’s clear that it wouldn’t have served Rayse’s goals of “not just winning but winning in a way that makes a statement” in that El is just some Fused, he’s not one of the greatest followers of Honor brought down to Rayse’s level. But what is the angle that makes El such a terrifying adversary, and how will choosing him get TOdium off the planet? 

First we don't know that choosing El is the cunning manoeuvre that Taravangian sees and Rayse missed. But let's assume that it is, then it would fit, El seems to have been in the same position as Sja-Anat: he was more true to Odium than Odium's vessel and that got him severely reprimanded and cast aside. 

On 12/21/2020 at 2:24 AM, coolsnow7 said:

And if I were to guess, “He Who Silences” doesn’t refer to silencing people or Heralds, but silencing the rhythms themselves. My guess is that El lost his title and rhythms by going too far and threatening Roshar in some way, and will present that sort of conundrum at the contest of champions. EG he has some connection (maybe Connection) with Roshar in such a way that if he dies Roshar collapses too. That would force the humans into a situation where even if they win, their planet gets destroyed like Ashyn. And this makes the tie-in with the Recreance and the Shin much clearer as well...

No need to guess as El explains in his Musings: "I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring insist [humans] should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed."

[coolsnow7]

On 12/26/2020 at 7:51 PM, Parallax said:

 

No need to guess as El explains in his Musings: "I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring insist [humans] should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed."

That’s a) just El’s perspective and b ) a very narrow explanation. Kind of like saying “WWI started because the Archduke Ferdinand got shot”. Technically true, but doesn’t tell the whole story.

It’s not obvious to me why merely suggesting the humans be conquered rather than destroyed would warrant such a severe punishment, especially when it also means sidelining an incredibly powerful Fused (he makes Lezian look like a joke in the final scene.) And to reiterate: that was just his perspective. We’ve seen Cosmere characters report false information before.

 

Quote

First we don't know that choosing El is the cunning manoeuvre that Taravangian sees and Rayse missed.

To the extent that we know anything, we know this, insofar as the “thoughtfulness” that triggered Wit’s terror and subsequent wiping of his memories was the question “who would you choose as champion?” That makes it as clear as it can get (without just giving it away) that the choice of champion is the key to TOdium’s plan.

Edited December 29, 2020 by coolsnow7

[Guest Parallax]

12 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

That’s a) just El’s perspective and b ) a very narrow explanation. Kind of like saying “WWI started because the Archduke Ferdinand got shot”. Technically true, but doesn’t tell the whole story.

It’s not obvious to me why merely suggesting the humans be conquered rather than destroyed would warrant such a severe punishment, especially when it also means sidelining an incredibly powerful Fused (he makes Lezian look like a joke in the final scene.) And to reiterate: that was just his perspective. We’ve seen Cosmere characters report false information before.

El's perspective is all we have I am not sure why you think it is narrow and not broad. To build on your analogy if you told an alien who knows nothing about human history "WWI started because the Archduke Ferdinand got shot" they would not know how to evaluate that claim. 

12 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

To the extent that we know anything, we know this, insofar as the “thoughtfulness” that triggered Wit’s terror and subsequent wiping of his memories was the question “who would you choose as champion?” That makes it as clear as it can get (without just giving it away) that the choice of champion is the key to TOdium’s plan.

That is an interesting idea I had not considered. The passage from the Epilogue reads:

Quote

Was Rayse growing more thoughtful? Wit didn't need to worry, did he? After all this, Odium would be safely imprisoned, no matter what happened. There was no way out. . . .

Unless . . .

Given that win or lose Wit is happy, this indicates something else is needed for Odium to escape his prison. Maybe El is the one Fused that has a chance of delivering a contest with no winner?

Edited December 30, 2020 by Parallax

[coolsnow7]

10 hours ago, Parallax said:

El's perspective is all we have I am not sure why you think it is narrow and not broad. To build on your analogy if you told an alien who knows nothing about human history "WWI started because the Archduke Ferdinand got shot" they would not know how to evaluate that claim. 

 

I am saying that in order for this perspective to make sense, we need more information. Either El is wrong/lying and he was stripped of rhythms and title for other reasons, OR suggesting that humans be conquered rather than exterminated has more significance than we think.

Quote

That is an interesting idea I had not considered. The passage from the Epilogue

Given that win or lose Wit is happy, this indicates something else is needed for Odium to escape his prison. Maybe El is the one Fused that has a chance of delivering a contest with no winner?

Everyone’s focused on a draw, as of yesterday I think the real answer is that TOdium wants to force the humans to tear up the contract. Given the foreshadowing of “the health of the planet” or whatever that’s been going on through Rhythm of War; and given El’s unique relationship with the rhythms; I’m pretty confident that if El is T’s champion, it’s because he can threaten the planet even if he loses. This 

[Guest Parallax]

14 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I am saying that in order for this perspective to make sense, we need more information. Either El is wrong/lying and he was stripped of rhythms and title for other reasons, OR suggesting that humans be conquered rather than exterminated has more significance than we think.

A third possibility: Rayse interpreted El's suggestions as insubordination and he got punished. 

14 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Everyone’s focused on a draw, as of yesterday I think the real answer is that TOdium wants to force the humans to tear up the contract. Given the foreshadowing of “the health of the planet” or whatever that’s been going on through Rhythm of War; and given El’s unique relationship with the rhythms; I’m pretty confident that if El is T’s champion, it’s because he can threaten the planet even if he loses. This 

I am not convinced El has the ability to threaten "the health of planet", even with his special talents he is just one of the Fused (and why couldn't they make use of this ability in one of the previous desolations?). However I very much like the idea that the choice of El is tied to a plot to force Dalinar to abandon the contract.