Rhythms, intent, and how they work with the larger Cosmere.[Dawnshard]

[Doonl]

In RoW and Dawnshard, we learn a lot about how investiture works, and get hints at even more. Most notably to me, was the idea of anti-investiture, and the rhythms to investiture, and the returning concept of intent to guide investiture. 

I'll start with the rhythms. We are told that essentially each shard on Roshar has its own rhythm, and that not only can you combine these rhythms, but that there is an inverse for each to create anti-investiture. The idea of the rhythms is something that up not now has seemed like it is a phenomena natural to roshar and the shards can be felt through them since they are manifesting on the planet. However, the actual ability to create anti-investiture through the rhythms, and the pure tones made this seem less likely to me. However, what really convinced me that this wasnt true, was during a re-read of Mistborn Era 1. Firstly, the Allomantic pulses that are felt through bronze are described very similarly to the rhythms, even with the idea that at first they sound the same, but can be distinguished with practice, something Marsh teaches Vin, and that we see Navani do with Raboniel. Also, in HoA, when Vin ascends to hold Preservation, the first time Ruin talks to her, it is described as almost a rhythm, very like how the pure tones are described. 

I do not have them on had, but I would be willing to bet that both Elantris and Warbreaker also have similar descriptions. When raoden is in the Perpendicularity, I bet there is some mention of it, and in Warbreaker, its possible I am misremembering, but I distinctly recall something that sounds like a pure tone related to when the Returned actually return, and when Lightsong remembers dying. Also in Warbreaker, some of the effects of the Heightenings seems to be geared to this. Perfect pitch is the most obvious, as that would let them tell appart the rhythms, but even the color differentiation is interesting, as we see in RoW that each type of investiture has its own distinct color spectrum. 

Also, at the end of HoA when Sazed is taking the powers of Ruin and Preservation, something interesting is said. Throughout the book, even from the POV of Vessels, the powers are described as opposites, much like how Raboniel assumes that Voidlight and Stormlight are opposites. However, just like how Raboniel is proven wrong, Sazed makes a point of noting that they are not in fact opposites, and are meant to be together. However, they require Intent to be joined. Not only does this all seem to give certainly that the principals we learned in RoW apply to the entire Cosmere, but it also leads me to the idea of Intent.

 

We have now seen intent in several situations in the Cosmere. Sazed needs intent to join Ruin and Preservation, Dawnshards apparently need Intent to be used, Navani needed Intent to create anti-light, and in Warbreaker, Intent is required to awaken. To, the fact that we see intent in these specific examples, and only them, tells us the importance of intent and its place in the Cosmere. 

My theory is that Intent is required exclusively when directly giving purpose investiture. In the systems of Investiture on Scadrial, Roshar, and Sel, what the Investiture does is pre-determined. All the user does it point it in a direction so to speak. When steel is burnt, what happens is defined, it pushes, all the allomancer does is say what it pushes on. The same is true to the surges on Roshar and of the Aons on Sel. The Investiture has its purpose, all the user does is direct it. Notably different to this is Nalthis, where the user both needs intent, and needs to give direction to the Investiture when they awaken something. the bounds of what they can do are seemingly only their own imagination. Again, when Sazed joins the powers he is directing the Investiture. When Navani is creating anti-light, she directs it with intent. I think it is safe to assume that the intent part of using a Dawnshard to also to direct it. 

The question now becomes why do Allomancy or Surgbinding or the Dor not require intent. The answer seems to be that for these systems, the power is external, passing through the user but not possessed by them. We know that Nalthis is notably different in that the humans there innately hold extra investiture within themselves. The people on Nalthis are in some ways tiny versions of shards, vessels for their single breath. With each extra breath they hold, the effects of being such a vessel become more obvious. These are passive differences, not requiring Investiture to be consumed to maintain, something we dont see on other worlds. I would guess that in the heightenings we can actually see something like a series of smaller steps between regular people and shard vessels. 

This last part is probably the most guessing and wild theorizing in this post, but I believe that when the humans on Nalthis use their breaths, they are using the Investiture the same say that the shards can use their power, admittedly on a much smaller scale. My explanation for the limits of the ability of the breaths would be that they are parts of Endowment, and so can only be used in that intent, which all the uses for awakening and breath we have seen could plausible fall under.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Another time we see rhythm in the cosmere is with dalinar’s perpendicularity. And as far as I remember, Navani, who’s been studying that note specifically at the beginning of RoW, did not make a connection between honor’s pure note and dalinar’s. Which probably means they’re not the same, interestingly

[StanLemon]

WoB also says that Bronze can be used to hear Rhythms

Aethenoth

Can an Allomantic bronze burner hear the Rhythms on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible.

[knightedbishop he/him]

I would argue almost all applications of invested arts we have seen require some level of intent. Surge of adhesion requires the user have intent of what they are seeking to adhere. Same with allomancy- you have to have a mind directing what you’re pushing if you’re burning steel. The intent seems less central to the operation of these invested arts- the effect is already set up, the intent simply directs where and how the power is applied. Other examples put intent much more front and center- like Awakening. The only one I don’t see clear evidence of intent for is hemalurgy. 

[StanLemon]

@knightedbishop Intent still matters with Hemalurgy. Someone needs to provide the Intent for the metal to be a Spike for it to steal a trait.

[Clovermite]

5 hours ago, Doonl said:

I'll start with the rhythms. We are told that essentially each shard on Roshar has its own rhythm, and that not only can you combine these rhythms, but that there is an inverse for each to create anti-investiture. The idea of the rhythms is something that up not now has seemed like it is a phenomena natural to roshar and the shards can be felt through them since they are manifesting on the planet. However, the actual ability to create anti-investiture through the rhythms, and the pure tones made this seem less likely to me. However, what really convinced me that this wasnt true, was during a re-read of Mistborn Era 1. Firstly, the Allomantic pulses that are felt through bronze are described very similarly to the rhythms, even with the idea that at first they sound the same, but can be distinguished with practice, something Marsh teaches Vin, and that we see Navani do with Raboniel. Also, in HoA, when Vin ascends to hold Preservation, the first time Ruin talks to her, it is described as almost a rhythm, very like how the pure tones are described. 

I think you're really on to something here. My very first thought is that I want to see what you get when you combine Harmony light with War light.

 

5 hours ago, Doonl said:

and when Lightsong remembers dying.

Haha, Rhythm of War gives a whole new perspective to the name "Lightsong." That's literally what Navani was researching - light songs. I wonder if this was an intentional allusion/foreshadowing to what was coming in later books, or just a happy accident.

[Doonl]

3 hours ago, knightedbishop said:

I would argue almost all applications of invested arts we have seen require some level of intent. Surge of adhesion requires the user have intent of what they are seeking to adhere. Same with allomancy- you have to have a mind directing what you’re pushing if you’re burning steel. The intent seems less central to the operation of these invested arts- the effect is already set up, the intent simply directs where and how the power is applied. Other examples put intent much more front and center- like Awakening. The only one I don’t see clear evidence of intent for is hemalurgy. 

I agree that you still have to know what you are doing with all the system, knowing that you can burn the metals in important, and you chose what you are pushing. However, Vin is able to use Iron to pull on things without knowing what iron actually does. The examples I mentioned explicitly require Intent, which it seems to be distinct from intention. Vin intends to push on coins, but Intent is required to awaken something in a away it does not seem to be for say Allomancy.

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

@knightedbishop Intent still matters with Hemalurgy. Someone needs to provide the Intent for the metal to be a Spike for it to steal a trait.

Its not clear that it does though. I mean when Spook gets spiked its seems pretty accidental. True Ruin probably pulled some strings, but the people actually doing the physical actions almost certainly did not intent to create a hemalurgic spike and leave it in Spook, let alone even know about hemalurgy. I think it is certainly difficult, since the spike has to pass through the exact bind points, but I think it does not actually require an intention to make a spike, it simply is extremely unlikely to happen without the knowledge of hemalurgic bind points

Edited December 10, 2020 by Doonl
Avoid double posting

[StanLemon]

Intent is involved as per WoB

Quote

Phantine

If I stab someone with a steel spike to steal their physical Allomancy, what determines which power I steal? Where the spike is stabbed into, my Intent, or some other factor?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent is at play once you get to the finer points of Hemalurgy, but that can get wonky, as evidenced by some certain events with Spook and even Vin.

 

Quote

Lhyonnaes (paraphrased)

And on bind points... are these something that we could figure out ourselves one day, through analysis and guessing? Or is it something we'll just have to wait and see?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They're... it would be a lot of trial and error, but it's... possible? And you need Intent, so... it would be a lot of trial and error. It wouldn't be easy. Probably not.

 

Quote

Questioner

Allomancy requires, you need to be either a Misting or a Mistborn to be able to do that. But Hemalurgy you just need to stab someone through the heart. So what would stop someone on Roshar from using Hemalurgy, because it's not Innate? Do you have to be in proximity to Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent is a big part of a lot of the magics, including Hemalurgy, meaning that you need to know what you're doing. Or somebody needs to-- There needs to be Intent involved in what's happening to you.

Questioner

So like with Spook when he got spiked, where was the Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

The person who was driving that spike was being influenced by Ruin, and the Intent was there.

Questioner

So unless you knew what you were trying to do with a Hemalurgic spike, you couldn't do Hemalurgy?

Edited December 10, 2020 by StanLemon

[LightReader she/her]

I think the main idea of intent is that within the cosmere you generally can’t do magic by accident, and often the more precise your intention is the more control you have over the results you get. So basically you can’t do hemalurgy by accident, someone has to intend for it to be done. In the case of Vin’s mother, the intent was coming from Ruin directly. When Kaladin seems to accidentally stick something together, I would guess that the intent actually comes from Syl. It’s possible for the intent to come from someone else other than the actual magic user, but I suspect they would have to be Connected to that person. It’s also possible that external intent would have to come directly from a Connected Shard or splinter(such as a spren). 

[StanLemon]

Intent can be at some level subconscious or unconscious. It's possible to tap from a metalmind while asleep for example. I think that would help explain "accidental" uses of magic.

[Doonl]

19 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Intent can be at some level subconscious or unconscious. It's possible to tap from a metalmind while asleep for example. I think that would help explain "accidental" uses of magic.

I think this is probably true, but it seems like it is not a full answer. We see several instances where someone uses their powers not only subconsciously, but while still unaware they have powers. While its true that in the case of the Radiants, maybe the intent comes from their spren, they are not the only example. In Mistborn, we see Vin unknowingly burning metals, and its implied that this is something that happens relatively commonly with Allomancers. While for Vin specifically, there were 2 different shards interested in her, for the most part that was not the case, and it seems hard to believe that the intent came from Preservation in all but maybe Vin's case given the state of him mind by that time.

[LightReader she/her]

Actually, even if Vin doesn’t realize that what she’s doing is Allomancy, her use of her “luck” as she calls it initially, does seem to be intentional at least some of time. She wills Camon to calm down and then it happens. It’s not a passive effect. There is an argument to be made about pewter burning unconsciously though. But even if there are occasional exceptions, it is rare for magic to happen accidentally in the Cosmere, and the more complex or powerful or precise the magic, the more intent seems to be required.

[gremlin303]

With regards to subconscious uses of arcana by unknowing individuals such as Kaladin and Vin I would say the intent is there, it is just subconscious. Kaladin wants to protect his men and Vin wants to influence those around her to protect herself and both want to survive, so they subconsciously provide the intent to subconsciously trigger their abilities.

[yulyulk]

This makes me wonder if singing the tones of Odium and Honor, with a particular Intent in mind, would create something other than the rhythm of war? Raboniel and Navani were both preoccupied with the "war" aspect of things, which perhaps influenced their interpretation of the rhythm.

[StormFather!]

So I found a WoB that explains how Allomancy is done unconsciously 

Moogle

Compounding requires practice, according to The Hero of Age's annotations. And yet, it's apparently as easy as burning a metalmind. What was going on that meant the Inquisitors couldn't figure out how to do it (despite Ruin likely knowing how and undoubtedly wanting them to learn) for over a year? What skill did they need to practice doing, exactly?

And what happened while they were practicing burning metalminds without successfully Compounding? Did they get an Allomantic effect?

Brandon Sanderson

What I think I was getting at in the annotations was a cosmere magic rule that, perhaps, I hadn't completely refined yet. This is the idea that INTENT is vitally important to the workings of most cosmere magics.

You can learn to burn metals instinctively over time, but it does take time--time for your body to figure out what it's doing. If you have instruction and guidance, you can pick it up in an evening, like Vin did. Same goes for most of the magics. This ties into Awakening, with the idea that you have to form a command.

During Warbreaker was where I really refined this aspect of the magic. Logically, since the beginning of the cosmere, I've wanted all three Realms to be important to the way the magics worked. The "Practice" therefore for compounding is mental practice--a barrier to overcome in understanding what is happening, and what it will do to you.

If you already know all of these things by having it explained to you, that barrier is far less high. I think that was what I was talking about in the Annotations, without really having the idea specified yet--though I'd have to look back at the annotation and re-read it to say for certain.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015)

[garlick]

 

On 12/9/2020 at 6:12 PM, Doonl said:

In RoW and Dawnshard, we learn a lot about how investiture works, and get hints at even more. Most notably to me, was the idea of anti-investiture, and the rhythms to investiture, and the returning concept of intent to guide investiture. 

I'll start with the rhythms. We are told that essentially each shard on Roshar has its own rhythm, and that not only can you combine these rhythms, but that there is an inverse for each to create anti-investiture. The idea of the rhythms is something that up not now has seemed like it is a phenomena natural to roshar and the shards can be felt through them since they are manifesting on the planet. However, the actual ability to create anti-investiture through the rhythms, and the pure tones made this seem less likely to me. However, what really convinced me that this wasnt true, was during a re-read of Mistborn Era 1. Firstly, the Allomantic pulses that are felt through bronze are described very similarly to the rhythms, even with the idea that at first they sound the same, but can be distinguished with practice, something Marsh teaches Vin, and that we see Navani do with Raboniel. Also, in HoA, when Vin ascends to hold Preservation, the first time Ruin talks to her, it is described as almost a rhythm, very like how the pure tones are described. 

I do not have them on had, but I would be willing to bet that both Elantris and Warbreaker also have similar descriptions. When raoden is in the Perpendicularity, I bet there is some mention of it, and in Warbreaker, its possible I am misremembering, but I distinctly recall something that sounds like a pure tone related to when the Returned actually return, and when Lightsong remembers dying. Also in Warbreaker, some of the effects of the Heightenings seems to be geared to this. Perfect pitch is the most obvious, as that would let them tell appart the rhythms, but even the color differentiation is interesting, as we see in RoW that each type of investiture has its own distinct color spectrum. 

Also, at the end of HoA when Sazed is taking the powers of Ruin and Preservation, something interesting is said. Throughout the book, even from the POV of Vessels, the powers are described as opposites, much like how Raboniel assumes that Voidlight and Stormlight are opposites. However, just like how Raboniel is proven wrong, Sazed makes a point of noting that they are not in fact opposites, and are meant to be together. However, they require Intent to be joined. Not only does this all seem to give certainly that the principals we learned in RoW apply to the entire Cosmere, but it also leads me to the idea of Intent.

 

We have now seen intent in several situations in the Cosmere. Sazed needs intent to join Ruin and Preservation, Dawnshards apparently need Intent to be used, Navani needed Intent to create anti-light, and in Warbreaker, Intent is required to awaken. To, the fact that we see intent in these specific examples, and only them, tells us the importance of intent and its place in the Cosmere. 

My theory is that Intent is required exclusively when directly giving purpose investiture. In the systems of Investiture on Scadrial, Roshar, and Sel, what the Investiture does is pre-determined. All the user does it point it in a direction so to speak. When steel is burnt, what happens is defined, it pushes, all the allomancer does is say what it pushes on. The same is true to the surges on Roshar and of the Aons on Sel. The Investiture has its purpose, all the user does is direct it. Notably different to this is Nalthis, where the user both needs intent, and needs to give direction to the Investiture when they awaken something. the bounds of what they can do are seemingly only their own imagination. Again, when Sazed joins the powers he is directing the Investiture. When Navani is creating anti-light, she directs it with intent. I think it is safe to assume that the intent part of using a Dawnshard to also to direct it. 

The question now becomes why do Allomancy or Surgbinding or the Dor not require intent. The answer seems to be that for these systems, the power is external, passing through the user but not possessed by them. We know that Nalthis is notably different in that the humans there innately hold extra investiture within themselves. The people on Nalthis are in some ways tiny versions of shards, vessels for their single breath. With each extra breath they hold, the effects of being such a vessel become more obvious. These are passive differences, not requiring Investiture to be consumed to maintain, something we dont see on other worlds. I would guess that in the heightenings we can actually see something like a series of smaller steps between regular people and shard vessels. 

This last part is probably the most guessing and wild theorizing in this post, but I believe that when the humans on Nalthis use their breaths, they are using the Investiture the same say that the shards can use their power, admittedly on a much smaller scale. My explanation for the limits of the ability of the breaths would be that they are parts of Endowment, and so can only be used in that intent, which all the uses for awakening and breath we have seen could plausible fall under.

I feel like intent is used by allmoancers dor users and surgbinders. Just by burning a metal you intend to make the effect happen. The medallions cant be used unless you intend to use them for their function. The coin hoid gave wax was a coppermind but until he intended to use it as a metal mind it was just a coin. The same for the dor, the act drawing the the healing aon means you intend to heal someone. And when a windrunner lashes you to the air and you fly up thats exactly what he intended. 

 I also feel like there's hidden abilities within these systems due to misunderstanding and having the wrong intent. In the same way having a teacher tell you about burning metal in your sleep it can be learned in a night, but on your own it takes your body a while to learn to do it. Having a teacher give you the wrong information will give you the wrong intent. I feel like A-gold is a good example. As far as we know it allows you to see different versions of yourself. That's what they are taught it does so they lack the intent to do more with it. Now this is just theory take it as you will. But if someone with a-gold met a soulforger and sees what they can do. Is it possible they see something similar in what they do? If they burned gold with the intent to swap places with a gold shadow they could become that shadow in essence soulforging themselves. Then with the correct intent and study have more control over the gold shadows they see and like a soulforger refine the shadows to become what they want. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

On 09/12/2020 at 11:31 PM, StanLemon said:

WoB also says that Bronze can be used to hear Rhythms

 

Can we ask him if Surges produce pulses like burning metals does?

 

Also, on Warbreaker, a quick search of Rhythm comes up with little but tones:

 

Quote

Another precaution. In order to Awaken, the man would need three things: Breath, color, and a Command. The harmonics and the hues, some called it. The Iridescent Tones, the relationship between color and sound. A Command had to be spoken clearly and firmly in the Awakener’s native language—any stuttering, any mispronunciation, would invalidate the Awakening. The Breath would be drawn out, but the object would be unable to act.

Quote

“Keep your part of the bargain,” Vahr said. Vasher noted the tones in his voice, the beauty of each one, how close they were to harmonics. Vasher had gained perfect pitch. A gift for anyone who reached the Second Heightening. It would be good to have that again.

Quote

 

 

And there a lot of musical references and linking of Awakening and Breaths to music, and of course the Iridescent Tones themselves are both a reference to colour and music.

I think there's evidence

 

Edit: Also, I just realised, what is Colour if not Light, and thus a link with the concept of Shardlight from Stormlight Archive too? 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by IndigoAjah

[Doonl]

On 12/22/2020 at 8:44 AM, garlick said:

 

I feel like intent is used by allmoancers dor users and surgbinders. Just by burning a metal you intend to make the effect happen. The medallions cant be used unless you intend to use them for their function. The coin hoid gave wax was a coppermind but until he intended to use it as a metal mind it was just a coin. The same for the dor, the act drawing the the healing aon means you intend to heal someone. And when a windrunner lashes you to the air and you fly up thats exactly what he intended. 

 I also feel like there's hidden abilities within these systems due to misunderstanding and having the wrong intent. In the same way having a teacher tell you about burning metal in your sleep it can be learned in a night, but on your own it takes your body a while to learn to do it. Having a teacher give you the wrong information will give you the wrong intent. I feel like A-gold is a good example. As far as we know it allows you to see different versions of yourself. That's what they are taught it does so they lack the intent to do more with it. Now this is just theory take it as you will. But if someone with a-gold met a soulforger and sees what they can do. Is it possible they see something similar in what they do? If they burned gold with the intent to swap places with a gold shadow they could become that shadow in essence soulforging themselves. Then with the correct intent and study have more control over the gold shadows they see and like a soulforger refine the shadows to become what they want. 

I think that most of this is true, but I feel like there is a difference in how Intent is portrayed regarding say Awakening, vs Allomancy. We have seen for several systems, specifically Allomancy, that using them unconsciously, and without knowing that you can, is not only possible, but relatively common. By contrast, when we are told how to awaken, Intent is a vital part in the the user must provide it. Brandon has said regarding allomancy that the metals are more keys to the power, shaping it. To me that seems like the Intent is pre-determined, and provided by either the metal, the investiture itself, or both. The same is true of the Dor, and to a lesser degree Surgebinding. I think it is important to note that there is a difference between the systems where Investment helps to use it (ex: compounding with allomancy, or just choosing activly to burn metals), and systems where Intent is required (Intent must be provided by the person to do anything with Awakening). 

While the difference between these 2 things is likely just a difference in where the Intent is coming from, it still hints in large possibilities regarding both types of systems. Much like your point about the limits imposed by ones teacher, it might be possible to figure out how to direct the intent of Allomancy more like Awakening to make its effects much more versatile, or to make the investiture provide the Intent for Awakening to allow faster, or maybe awakenings that require less breaths. Obviously this is complete speculation, but I think there is more here than we fully know.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

26 minutes ago, Doonl said:

I think that most of this is true, but I feel like there is a difference in how Intent is portrayed regarding say Awakening, vs Allomancy. We have seen for several systems, specifically Allomancy, that using them unconsciously, and without knowing that you can, is not only possible, but relatively common. By contrast, when we are told how to awaken, Intent is a vital part in the the user must provide it. Brandon has said regarding allomancy that the metals are more keys to the power, shaping it. To me that seems like the Intent is pre-determined, and provided by either the metal, the investiture itself, or both. The same is true of the Dor, and to a lesser degree Surgebinding. I think it is important to note that there is a difference between the systems where Investment helps to use it (ex: compounding with allomancy, or just choosing activly to burn metals), and systems where Intent is required (Intent must be provided by the person to do anything with Awakening). 

While the difference between these 2 things is likely just a difference in where the Intent is coming from, it still hints in large possibilities regarding both types of systems. Much like your point about the limits imposed by ones teacher, it might be possible to figure out how to direct the intent of Allomancy more like Awakening to make its effects much more versatile, or to make the investiture provide the Intent for Awakening to allow faster, or maybe awakenings that require less breaths. Obviously this is complete speculation, but I think there is more here than we fully know.

Intent DOES have an influence with Allomancy; sometimes a rather big one. For example, being able to Steelpush on metallic parts that aren't just the center of the object.

[Doonl]

27 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Intent DOES have an influence with Allomancy; sometimes a rather big one. For example, being able to Steelpush on metallic parts that aren't just the center of the object.

This is basically what I am saying, that Allomancy does not require intent provided by the user, but that if it is provided, it becomes much more versatile, and that there could be even further expansion of those capabilities if the user has a further understanding of Investiture and Intent. (As an aside, we have never seen someone with a real understanding of cosmere mechanics use/interact with the metallic arts, bar Sazed and Kelsier, who we dont actually see doing that, we just know they do.) By contrast, Awakening requires Intent to use at even the most basic level. What I am saying is that the gap between those two things is likely fundamentally important to how they work, and that understanding and bridging that gap could provide tons of new options for both systems

[+Bzhydack he/him]

2 hours ago, Doonl said:

This is basically what I am saying, that Allomancy does not require intent provided by the user, but that if it is provided, it becomes much more versatile, and that there could be even further expansion of those capabilities if the user has a further understanding of Investiture and Intent. (As an aside, we have never seen someone with a real understanding of cosmere mechanics use/interact with the metallic arts, bar Sazed and Kelsier, who we dont actually see doing that, we just know they do.) By contrast, Awakening requires Intent to use at even the most basic level. What I am saying is that the gap between those two things is likely fundamentally important to how they work, and that understanding and bridging that gap could provide tons of new options for both systems

With Allomancy you need to know you can burn metal. You can instinctivly learn this, but you need to know this. The same with feruchemy - you need to KNOW what metalmind do, even unkeyed one. If you dont know it is metalmind, you cannot use it. But right, Metalic Arts (except Hemalurgy) are most instinctive to use from all magics.

But I disagree about Dor. Aons have to be learn, exactly like Commands. It is even more complicated, you need to write whole wery precise. The same with soulstamps.

[Doonl]

9 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

With Allomancy you need to know you can burn metal. You can instinctivly learn this, but you need to know this. The same with feruchemy - you need to KNOW what metalmind do, even unkeyed one. If you dont know it is metalmind, you cannot use it. But right, Metalic Arts (except Hemalurgy) are most instinctive to use from all magics.

But I disagree about Dor. Aons have to be learn, exactly like Commands. It is even more complicated, you need to write whole wery precise. The same with soulstamps.

The point about the Dor is actually true, but for Allomency, you explicitly DONT need to know you can burn metals. We see this with Vin, where sure she thinks she has "luck" but 1) she didnt just start using it one day, she must have been doing it, and then realized it, and 2) she is burning pewter completely unknowingly, her "luck" is only Zinc and Brass. Same thing with Surgebinding, for a while Kaladin has no idea that he can use stormlight, but is still doing it during Bridge Runs. It definitely becomes more useful to them once they realize what they are doing, since they can choose when to use it, but they are able to use investiture without knowing that they can.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

15 minutes ago, Doonl said:

The point about the Dor is actually true, but for Allomency, you explicitly DONT need to know you can burn metals. We see this with Vin, where sure she thinks she has "luck" but 1) she didnt just start using it one day, she must have been doing it, and then realized it, and 2) she is burning pewter completely unknowingly, her "luck" is only Zinc and Brass. Same thing with Surgebinding, for a while Kaladin has no idea that he can use stormlight, but is still doing it during Bridge Runs. It definitely becomes more useful to them once they realize what they are doing, since they can choose when to use it, but they are able to use investiture without knowing that they can.

I wonder if the subconscious mind of humans has Intent. Basically can instincts have Intent?

[Doonl]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

I wonder if the subconscious mind of humans has Intent. Basically can instincts have Intent?

I like this idea, but I feel like Intent by definition cant be instinctual. Also, characters talk about it in a way that seems like it has to be a choice made with at least some level of understanding, like how the Amians wont tell Rysn how to use the Dawnshard, or even what it does, because it requires intent so if she does not know what it does she cant use it.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, Doonl said:

I like this idea, but I feel like Intent by definition cant be instinctual. Also, characters talk about it in a way that seems like it has to be a choice made with at least some level of understanding, like how the Amians wont tell Rysn how to use the Dawnshard, or even what it does, because it requires intent so if she does not know what it does she cant use it.

That's fair. I guess things like instinctively burning Pewter could be part of the Intent of the Investiture of Preservation, after all, Vin was burning metals at first to, in a sense, Preserve her own existence and survive.