Chasmfiend theory (Light spoilers)

[Lil Grizzles]

I have a theory that I want to work with everyone.
Chasmfiends. We have seen them throughout the books and we only know so much. We saw two major things in RoW from the perspective of the Listeners (I will talk about them lower in case you haven't read and did not realize that there will be spoilers... for some reason, ya know)

I think that Thunderclasts are fused Chasmfiends. I don't specific references and my academic brain hates me for that but here we go with why I think this.

First, in book WoK we have two moments that play into this:
1) the misunderstanding that the chasmfiends are the "gods" of the Parshendi. We know that they aren't, but there is the idea that they are greater than the Parshendi (and this is mentioned again with a flashback by Eshoni) and I think this is a classic misdirection by BrandoSando, where he clearly says something, but later "disproves" it to end up being right on the money (see voidbringers being humans is mentioned in the epigraphs in the first part of WoK.)  I think that the chasmfiends are feared (for being so large) but also make up some of the gods that should not be worshipped anymore because they are fused.
2) after Shallan is taken on by Jasnah, Shallan draws a picture of a Chasmfiend attacking a village for Dalinar via spanreed where Jasnah says the description calls it a "voidbringer". Again, could be bad communication and loss of information, but I feel the misdirect here is more likely because it could have been some chasmfiends that fought alongside the singer fused that later became  themselves fused.

In WoR, we have one major part that I can remember, and that is the fight. Both Shallan and Kaladin saw the intelligence of the Chasmfiend in the, well, chasm. (The Alethi are not very creative with their naming of these things). We also know that Shallan notes the Chasmfiends have the same arrow spren (luck spren, which Dawnshard explains help them not be crushed and are bonded to the Chasmfiends) that follow chasmfiends and Santhids (in the art of both). I believe Santhids are intelligent due to a connection with tehse spren and bein invested, the same way the Rashadium are invested so therefore intelligent. This makes me feel that the Chasmfiends could be souls that come back as fused souls because they are invested enough to persist after death. Khriss only mentions the sapience of the Rashadium (sp?) but that might be cuz a) she hasn't played patty cake patty cake bakers man with a chasmfiend yet, and has not been lucky enough to see a Santhid. So, I think Chasmfiends are invested due to their bond with luckspren (I'll come back to this more).

In Oathbringer there are a bunch of spots:
1)When the Odd Group first enters Shadesmar through the Kholinar oathgate, Kaladin gets all angsty and makes the Heart of the Revel angry, and they see a GIANT crustacean claw break the sea of beads. Maybe it is the soul of a Chasmfiend that was unmade, (because I am going with the assumption that the unmade are all people once that were unmade, and some are more unthinking because they were beasts that were unmade, so not fully sapient, but clearly intelligent (man this is another tangent that I wanna go down but I won't, but I think the thrill is an unmade Rashadium.)) This is the first time we see something of the unmade in Shadesmare.
2) I can't remember where, but when one of the humans see a thunderclast they remark that it's head is triangle shaped, like that of a Chasmfiend. The head reminds them of that, because maybe the thunderclast has the same soul, so it takes something familiar, even if the rest of the body is more humanoid (even if it is skeletal, so it could be the legs, i dunno, this part is weaker, I agree.)
3) At the battle, in shadesmar there are 3 GIANT shadows and one smaller that enter the fight and disappear with the army of fused souls. One is the thrill. One is the gem unmade that Amaram eats, and the other two become thunderclasts. So why are they so much bigger than regular fused souls? Because I think they are of Chasmfiends, or at least a greatshell.

And in RoW there are other ideas that have cemented my ideas that thunderclasts are dead chasmfiends that are now fused.
1) the fused maintain their patterns through each incarnation. They can be different body types or even gender, but the patterns persist (see the head shape). The fused maintain some of their past, and because the singers are more sapient, they would be able to maintain whatever they see as what makes them "them". Thunderclasts would do less of that I think.
2) Venli mentions that the thunderclast fused souls are not singer souls. They are something else. This was huge for me, because if they are not singers they easily could be another sentient creature on Roshar.
3)The flashback where Eshoni is stared down by a Chasmfiend and she knows that it sees her, and there is kinda a "well, I guess I won't eat her, she won't be fun. I'll let her go." kind of vibe happening here.
4) Humans can be fused as well. We might not have seen one, but we know that there threats that Odium makes. 
5) The chasmfiend helped the listeners escape the chasms instead of eating them.
EDIT: I forgot! 6) Chiri Chiri is intelligent and talks! They also bond the luck spren (maybe different types of luck spren, but still, Chiri Chiri feels a kinship to other greatshells). This might be species specific but I think it is the same connection to a spren that makes these creatures intelligent, as Khriss mentions in Arcanum unbound.

 

Now, y'all might call be straight up cookie dooks, but I can't get this out of my head and I clearly have thought a bunch about this. What are all y'all thoughts? 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Lil Grizzles
forgot a point I needed to make

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I was skeptical when I started reading your post, but by the end I really think you are on to something. Thunderclasts may indeed be a "Fused" version of a greatshell.  

[Honorless he/him]

In Oathbringer chapter 115 Venli sees a Thunderclast soul and remarks about it being a twisted Singer soul.

[Lil Grizzles]

 

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

In Oathbringer chapter 115 Venli sees a Thunderclast soul and remarks about it being a twisted Singer soul.

So, I just looked it up, and it said the two large ones are as big as buildings. It does not say they are singers. That is in reference to the multitude. It says: "Those are the spirits of the dead, fused who haven't yet chosen a body. Most were twisted to the point that she barely recognized them as singers. Two were roughly the size of buildings"
Easily Venli could have assumed, since she could recognize that they were probably singers, even if she couldn't recognize them. The large ones might not have been recognized as singers at all, but she assumed they were.

All we know is they were large. Venli doesn't remark their singer-ness. which Sando does often to mislead, while being honest. That is what I think.

[Rorzikel]

Assuming his thoughts haven't changed, thunderclasts are modeled on but not chasmfiends or other greatshells. (Second wob is clearest)

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Questioner

What role will the chasmfiends play?

Brandon Sanderson

So there's a bunch of different roles for the chasmfiends that are all minor but-- For instance, I don't think anyone's made this connection, thunderclasts have chasmfiend-- it's part of the in-world inspiration for thunderclasts. And really chasmfiends exist in part to show off the symbiotic relationship between certain spren and certain creatures on Roshar. So when people who read the first book who know a little about physics can be like "Uhh, Mr. Sanderson" and I'm like "Well, look at these things that are flowing around this thing when it dies." It's an introduction of gemhearts and things like this. And the ability of certain creatures on Roshar to hold Investiture permanently, as Szeth says, rather than it seeping away like it does to humans.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

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Questioner

Are chasmfiends related to thunderclasts?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question though. Thunderclasts are actually... It shows up pretty early in the series, the second book, more what thunderclasts are. Dalinar sees one in a flashback in the second book. So you'll get a good explanation of where they come from, but they are more related to the voidbringers, whereas chasmfiends are actually a living part of the ecosystem.

Questioner

So what is the purpose of the pupating?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out. Shallan is asking that very question.

Steelheart release party (Sept. 24, 2013)

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uchoo786

Last question, are thunderclasts just voidspren animating dead greatshells that have bee turned to stone by crem, kind of like Kalad's army? And could light eyes who have been turned to stone by soul casters be reanimated, either by Vasher or by voidspren?

Brandon Sanderson

Thunderclasts are animating stone itself. Reanimating someone turned to stone would be more easy than simply animating the stone, but animating stone is tough, so that's not saying much.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 18, 2015)

Now RoW has shown us rather clearly that Brandon can change his mind on wobs so I wouldn't give up your theory just yet, but I do think there's evidence that for a number of year Brandon has been thinking in a different direction.

[Lil Grizzles]

6 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Assuming his thoughts haven't changed, thunderclasts are modeled on but not chasmfiends or other greatshells. (Second wob is clearest)

Now RoW has shown us rather clearly that Brandon can change his mind on wobs so I wouldn't give up your theory just yet, but I do think there's evidence that for a number of year Brandon has been thinking in a different direction.

1) Yeah, those WoB are pretty clear, dagnabbit. I mean, I am thinking now about how those could be twisted and be give reasons why they could still work, but you're right.

2) which examples are you talking about with RoW and WoB that were changed?

[+robardin he/him]

"Reanimating someone turned to stone would be more easy than simply animating the stone, but animating stone is tough, so that's not saying much."

So... Going cross-Cosmere magic... Does that mean some combination of a Soulstamp (a la The Emperor's Soul) to fake a soul from other people's memories of a person, plus an Awakening of a once-living, now-stone, form-of-a-person body like a Soulcast corpse, plus enough Breaths of course, could result in... Zahel/Vasher crafting a Teft's Phantom? (Not saying he ever would, and I doubt Kaladin or anybody else from Bridge Four would want it to be done, but could it be done...?)

 

[Rorzikel]

4 hours ago, Lil Grizzles said:

1) Yeah, those WoB are pretty clear, dagnabbit. I mean, I am thinking now about how those could be twisted and be give reasons why they could still work, but you're right.

2) which examples are you talking about with RoW and WoB that were changed?

From a post I made earlier.

Spoiler

Let's also remember though that pre-RoW wobs are full of lies and deceit.*
*(More likely Brandon is just telling a good story and can't be locked down by statements said in a signing line years ago)

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Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Are there Surges that could be considered as God Surges, like the God metals on Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Progression and Adhesion, perhaps?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, but they could be considered as such.

Footnote: Brandon has since clarified that what he actually said was "it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar."
When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

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Argent

The "God Surges" you mentioned recently, are they a part of the Way of Kings frontsheet?

Brandon Sanderson

All I said regarding this was to tell a fan that it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar. However, these are not a codified part of the magic system.

Footnote: Argent is referring to an exchange from When Worlds Collide earlier in the month.
Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

Ah yes Brandon nothing codified about Adhesion in the magic system like, say, "The Truest Surge of Honor that is only of Honor and cannot be surpressed like all the other surges and which enables Kaladin to stay awake and the Windrunners to be the closest to awareness of all the orders." Progression is a little funky too, given Lift can power it but not Abrasion. Nothing special about those surges at all.

Or the Mistspren, our resident Truthwatcher spren.

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Pagerunner

The mistspren, who crewed the Honorspren ship. Are they Radiant spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No they are not.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

Some people have tried to make the argument that Brandon was saying that those specific spren weren't the spren of Radiants rather than him saying they weren't Truespren, but I call bull on that. Both Brandon and the fandom are on record numerous times calling nahel bond Truespren "Radiant spren." Brandon can and does change his mind.

Basically all that is to say is that Kaladin is definitely special, in my opinion, even if he wasn't intended as such originally or if Brandon was obfuscating the details earlier to lay red herrings away from future plot points.

 

[Lil Grizzles]

5 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

From a post I made earlier.

  Hide contents

Let's also remember though that pre-RoW wobs are full of lies and deceit.*
*(More likely Brandon is just telling a good story and can't be locked down by statements said in a signing line years ago)

Ah yes Brandon nothing codified about Adhesion in the magic system like, say, "The Truest Surge of Honor that is only of Honor and cannot be surpressed like all the other surges and which enables Kaladin to stay awake and the Windrunners to be the closest to awareness of all the orders." Progression is a little funky too, given Lift can power it but not Abrasion. Nothing special about those surges at all.

Or the Mistspren, our resident Truthwatcher spren.

Some people have tried to make the argument that Brandon was saying that those specific spren weren't the spren of Radiants rather than him saying they weren't Truespren, but I call bull on that. Both Brandon and the fandom are on record numerous times calling nahel bond Truespren "Radiant spren." Brandon can and does change his mind.

Basically all that is to say is that Kaladin is definitely special, in my opinion, even if he wasn't intended as such originally or if Brandon was obfuscating the details earlier to lay red herrings away from future plot points.

 

Awesome references! And I think you are closer to the truth because we know Brando likes to change things to make them make sense. Like with blades didn;t have the gemstone that bonded them to anyone, and that wasn't added till late in WoK. 

Also, even if your WoB that were brought up are directly refuting me, I think there is something there with chasmfiends and intelligence, and the link between the spren they bond. Maybe not unmade or fused greatshells, but I know there is something funky going on haha