What actually caused the new desolation? (RoW Edition)

[ALAKA]

I originally posted this here before RoW came out, but I think there's some extra information in RoW that's worth integrating and discussing.

Spoiler

What actually caused the new desolation? Was it:

1) The Parshendi summoning the Everstorm,

2) Taln giving up in Damnation,

3) Gavilar/ Sons of Honour's weird experiments,

4) Return of the Surgebinders.

It seems strange that these things all happened almost at once after thousands of years. Are any of them connected (or Connected!) to each other? Are some just red herrings? 

Also odd how the Desolation was foreseen by Dalinar and Renarin - was it inevitable? If Eshonai had been a little more careful would nothing have happened?

The timeline of the new Desolation that comes out from RoW looks like this to me:

Odium's agents (not SoH) bring through Ulim the Voidspren -> Everstorm summoned by Listeners trained by Ulim/Venli ->  Everstorm de-lobotomises the Parshmen, bringing the Fused and giving them an army and bodies to inhabit.

I'm wondering if Taln breaking was actually necessary (a point made by @ftl in the original thread) - Ulim is aware that Taln has not broken (Chap. 73), and never mentions the need for him to break, just for the Everstorm to be summoned. Maybe Taln didn't break at all - he just Returned because of the Everstorm.

On 01/10/2020 at 3:51 AM, ftl said:

Two: The Everstorm caused Taln to return to Roshar... without breaking. Maybe the voidspren on Roshar finally - after millenia of trying - got the Everstorm summoned to return more of their bretheren. Gavilar's stuff was then also part of the voidspren machinations, just not the avenue that ended up bringing them back. It's possible that the truespren saw their progress and started to look for bonds. In this case, I can't think of a way that the return of the Everstorm would make Taln break - so one possibility is that it *didn't*. He returned because the Fused returned, but in his insane state doesn't realize that he never actually broke down. (Mostly because I don't see any plausible way for the everstorm to cause Taln to break.)

Also would like to know whether the SoH actually accomplished anything in the end or was it all Odium's agents?

[LordTheodore]

47 minutes ago, ALAKA said:

I originally posted this here before RoW came out, but I think there's some extra information in RoW that's worth integrating and discussing.

  Hide contents

What actually caused the new desolation? Was it:

1) The Parshendi summoning the Everstorm,

2) Taln giving up in Damnation,

3) Gavilar/ Sons of Honour's weird experiments,

4) Return of the Surgebinders.

It seems strange that these things all happened almost at once after thousands of years. Are any of them connected (or Connected!) to each other? Are some just red herrings? 

Also odd how the Desolation was foreseen by Dalinar and Renarin - was it inevitable? If Eshonai had been a little more careful would nothing have happened?

The timeline of the new Desolation that comes out from RoW looks like this to me:

Odium's agents (not SoH) bring through Ulim the Voidspren -> Everstorm summoned by Listeners trained by Ulim/Venli ->  Everstorm de-lobotomises the Parshmen, bringing the Fused and giving them an army and bodies to inhabit.

I'm wondering if Taln breaking was actually necessary (a point made by @ftl in the original thread) - Ulim is aware that Taln has not broken (Chap. 73), and never mentions the need for him to break, just for the Everstorm to be summoned. Maybe Taln didn't break at all - he just Returned because of the Everstorm.

Also would like to know whether the SoH actually accomplished anything in the end or was it all Odium's agents?

I don't see how the return of the surgebinders in any way caused another desolation. Prior to the recreance, there were thousands of surgebinders and that didn't cause a desolation. 

I think that Taln breaking is what caused the desolation. I also think that Rayse foresaw Taln breaking and prepared accordingly hence why the Everstorm shows up when it does. Moreover, the Parshendi summoning the Everstorm cannot be what caused the desolation because Taln returned long before they summoned it.

[skewh]

 

2 hours ago, LordTheodore said:

I don't see how the return of the surgebinders in any way caused another desolation. Prior to the recreance, there were thousands of surgebinders and that didn't cause a desolation. 

I think that Taln breaking is what caused the desolation. I also think that Rayse foresaw Taln breaking and prepared accordingly hence why the Everstorm shows up when it does. Moreover, the Parshendi summoning the Everstorm cannot be what caused the desolation because Taln returned long before they summoned it.

I agree that Taln breaking is what led to this new Desolation, i.e. the return of the Fused. Leshwi makes it pretty clear in the beginning of RoW that as long as the Heralds on Braize, the Fused are confined there. Unfortunately for Taln, Jezrien figured out that they didn't all have to be there to maintain the Isolation. 

An interesting question is whether Rayse's plans with the Listeners would have allowed the return of voidspren/forms of power through the summoning of the Everstorm, but not the return of the Fused, had Taln not broken. Either way, I'm sure Rayse knew that even Taln would eventually break under millennia of torture and planned for it accordingly. 

[Raven Wilder]

Alternatively, maybe what finally broke Taln was showing him, "Ha ha, we're gonna start a new Desolation anyway! Your sacrifice has been for nothing! Loser."

[ALAKA]

Keeping score - responses to claims in purple :

Points in favour of Taln Breaking:

1) That's how it always happened.

2) Taln shows up so he presumably broke. Why else would he return - even before the Everstorm got summoned? To warn them, or out of despair.

Points in favour of the Everstorm approach:

1) If Taln was going to break, why bother with Ulim's whole backdoor strategy? Whilst the Everstorm might still be needed to restore the Parshmen and give the Fused an army, why not just wait till he broke and do it then? RoW Chap. 73 is clear that it would have been easier to get the Voidspren had "That stupid Herald not been standing strong all these years later... You have no idea how much of a pain it all is." A quick summoning was needed otherwise Taln might have warned the world?

2) There's no indication in Chap. 73 that Ulim anticipates or needs Taln to break.

3) It's a weird coincidence for Taln to break at the same time - give or take a year out of 4000 - as the Everstorm gets summoned. Odium foresaw it.

[Karger he/him]

OK this really depends on what you mean by desolation.  If the question is "what caused the fused to return?" I think it noteworthy that absolutely none are seen on roshar until after he breaks despite other members of team Odium being present.  I think because of this we can infer that they needed him to break first.

[Raven Wilder]

Odium says that, even if he agreed to Dalinar's terms for the contest of champions, he can't force the Fused or the other voidspren to come back to Braize, that the Everstorm puts their ability to return beyond his power. So I think that creating the Everstorm was specifically done so Odium's forces could return even while the Oathpact held ... but that Taln needed to break in order for Odium himself to act on Roshar.

That makes me inclined to think that, after four millennia stuck in Damnation, Odium cooked up this Everstorm plan to work around it. Taln breaking around the same time it's put into motion is thus either a coincidence, a choice Taln made in response to the coming Everstorm (either wanting to go fight it, or giving up in despair when he sees there's no point to his continued suffering), or the result of someone else machinating events so these things would occur with suspicious timing (*cough* Cultivation *cough*).