2xMachina Posted November 22, 2020 Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 (edited) So, we now know of 14+1 shard names, and at least 1 Command and possibly 1 Intent. Command: Change, Maintain?, Create? Destroy? Intent: Emotion (Passion), Material?, Self? Others? Sorry, I don't know how to make a table. Passion, Material?, Others?, Self? Destroy: Odium, Ruin, ?, ? Create: ?, Invention, ?, ? Maintain: Honor, Preservation, Devotion, (Survival) Change: Whimsy, Endowment, Dominion, Autonomy Cultivation, Mercy, Valor, Ambition, not sure how to fit in this grid. Edited November 22, 2020 by 2xMachina 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriodor Posted November 22, 2020 Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 Passion and Create could be Ambition. Destroy and Others could be Mercy. Create and Others could be Cultivation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted November 22, 2020 Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 (edited) I am not convinced create and change are different enough. Mine are kind of like: CHANGE: Ruin, Endowment, Cultivation, Invention BOND/UNITE: Honour, Preservation, Dominion, ______. (maybe something cultural like Society/Community?) ACT: Autonomy, Valor, Ambition, Whimsy FEEL: Odium, Mercy, Devotion, Sorrow (semi maybe is confirmed kinda not ish) *All investiture becomes aware if there is enough of it and it has enough time, so i think feel/think make sense as fundamental things. ---- Although, Whimsy could be change depending on what you mean. You could mean whimsy as fun, or you could mean whimsy as changing a lot. I dont agree with the men on shard cast that Whimsy should be looked at like changing a lot though. I think Whimsy means more like having fun and not being bogged down my pressures. The men really got stuck on whim, which is not the same as whimsy in terms of connotation. I think Feather was more right for sure. Though it is possible that Endowment and Whimsy are swapped on this list. Other possible shards from WOB: Sorrow, Wisdom, Ingenuity, Edited November 23, 2020 by teknopathetic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirsickHighlander Posted November 22, 2020 Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 So do we know for certain that there are four Intents? I've been trying to intuitively group them into some sort of internal/external or pushing/pulling framework, something that further pairs off shards beyond their Commands. As for commands, I'd swap out Dominion for Ambition, although I agree with seriodor that create, or even destroy could fit. I feel like a good way to start would be with the grouping of the shards we know due to shared characteristics, and then deriving the commands from these groups, instead of working in the other direction forcing us to work on three assumptions. Having Change as a seed can help us with this, as it can help us build the first quadrant to use as a framework for the later three, so that's where I'm going to start. Ruin is the most obvious, as he refers to himself as a catalyst of change. Ambition is another good candidate, as the ambitious are never content and always need to become more. I'd considered Invention, but i think that implies making something that didn't exist before, rather than "innovation," so my third pick for the Change-gang is going to go to cultivation, who changes humans with her touch and encourages both pruning and growth. The last slot I would give to either Endowment or Whimsy. Endowment prunes memories to make her tools more able to achieve their grand designs, so she's somewhat similar to Cultivation, but I think that her sending back Returned is less about change and more about maintaining her people. We don't know much about Whimsy, but I'm going to take the chance and guess that the changably-named shard is itself commanded to Change. So if Change is Ruin, Ambition, Cultivation, and Whimsy, the question is whether these four shards have enough in common to help us form the other three quadrants of the system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriodor Posted November 22, 2020 Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, AirsickHighlander said: So do we know for certain that there are four Intents? I've been trying to intuitively group them into some sort of internal/external or pushing/pulling framework, something that further pairs off shards beyond their Commands. As for commands, I'd swap out Dominion for Ambition, although I agree with seriodor that create, or even destroy could fit. I feel like a good way to start would be with the grouping of the shards we know due to shared characteristics, and then deriving the commands from these groups, instead of working in the other direction forcing us to work on three assumptions. Having Change as a seed can help us with this, as it can help us build the first quadrant to use as a framework for the later three, so that's where I'm going to start. Ruin is the most obvious, as he refers to himself as a catalyst of change. Ambition is another good candidate, as the ambitious are never content and always need to become more. I'd considered Invention, but i think that implies making something that didn't exist before, rather than "innovation," so my third pick for the Change-gang is going to go to cultivation, who changes humans with her touch and encourages both pruning and growth. The last slot I would give to either Endowment or Whimsy. Endowment prunes memories to make her tools more able to achieve their grand designs, so she's somewhat similar to Cultivation, but I think that her sending back Returned is less about change and more about maintaining her people. We don't know much about Whimsy, but I'm going to take the chance and guess that the changably-named shard is itself commanded to Change. So if Change is Ruin, Ambition, Cultivation, and Whimsy, the question is whether these four shards have enough in common to help us form the other three quadrants of the system. I like this approach. I'm gonna say that because Ruin and Preservation are so opposite that they can form Harmony when mixed, that Preservation takes up a place under an opposite command. Stasis, or Maintain as 2xMachina wrote. I think Honor is a safe bet for that, because it's about hard laws and keeping oaths. I think Autonomy should actually go under stasis, because she seems to let her people self-govern: they come up with their own gods, and she just plays the role. Devotion could be the last one on that list, because its investiture seems to play a passive servile role. I guess creation and destruction could be the other two categories, but I kind of feel like that isn't the case because Ruin and Preservation were able to create things when they worked in Tandem. Edited November 22, 2020 by seriodor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirsickHighlander Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 I'm going to stick to my Mistborn inspired framework for the purpose of this exercise, because picking out that Cultivation Changes primarily through creation and Ruin Changes primarily through destruction sets them up as a perfect pair. While Whimsy and Ambition aren't as perfect a pairing, you could see one as imposing change on the self while the other imposes change on the world. So are there any other shards that pair off in this way? I would argue that the first pair that jumps out is Valor and (Survival). Courage in battle and the wisdom to avoid battle definitely seem to fall on the same axis, and i'd compare them to Cult/Ruin in the first example. Similarly I'd pair off Autonomy with Dominion, between power over the self and power over others it fits nicely into the established Whimsey/Ambition framework above. Endowment I think pairs well to Devotion. Endowment imbues souls with power so they can fight for themselves, but Devotion (I assume) would fight directly for them, making this another internal/external pair. I don't think I can see a clear pair for Odium, so I'm going to tack it to Mercy. One is passion, the raw feeling of acting on the world from emotion. An internal version of this could perhaps be mercy? the feeling of acting on YOURSELF because of emotion? Honour is another tough one, I think we could perhaps tie it to (Sorrow) perhaps, or (Wisdom) if they exist. Invention (rather than Ingenuity) would be the essence of making something new in the world, so perhaps his partner is a shard dedicated to either making new things within the self, or else making existing things STOP existing. Okay so let's see where I stand at the end of this word vomit - Change: Ruin Ambition Cultivation Whimsy Other pairs: Endowment/Devotion (Suvival)/Valor Autonomy/Dominion Odium/Mercy? Honour/(Wisdom)??(sorrow)??? Anyone have any other pairings that work well like this? Or do you see a Command that would group any of these pairs together? I'd just keep in mind that we're looking for the four commands that shaped all of creation, starting with Change. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirsickHighlander Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, seriodor said: I'm gonna say that because Ruin and Preservation are so opposite that they can form Harmony when mixed, that Preservation takes up a place under an opposite command. Stasis, or Maintain as 2xMachina wrote. I do really like the idea of Maintain, as Hoid's unchanging nature is allegedly due to the influence of the dawnshard he once held. It's also worth pointing out that one of the shards is "different" from the rest, could that also be "Maintain?" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) My chart, utilizing my theory that Scadrial reflects the post-shattering nature of the Cosmere in a way other worlds don’t due to being created after. Change-Temporal External forces - Ruin & Cultivation Internal forces - Odium & Whimsy Also, going clockwise the chart should read: Odium, Whimsy, Ruin, Cultivation (it’s not written that way, but it should be.) Unity - Spiritual External forces - Dominion and either Judgement or Knowledge Internal forces - Devotion and Honor Chart should read: Judgement/Knowledge, Dominion, Honor, Devotion. This puts Judgement/Knowledge near Cultivation. Survive - Physical External forces - Preservation and Invention Internal forces - Mercy and Prudence Should be read: Mercy, Prudence, Invention, Preservation (so Mercy is next to Devotion) Inspire - Cognitive External forces - Autonomy and Endowment Internal forces - Ambition and Valor Should be read: Endowment, Autonomy, Valor, Ambition (Endowment being near Preservation and Ambition next to Odium) I’m going to draw up a clearer chart. Edit: There! Done! I also have an alternative chart where the missing Shard is Industry. On that chart Industry takes Endowment’s place, Endowment goes in Unity near Cultivation, and Preservation and Invention swap places. Edited November 23, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirsickHighlander Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 Kingsdaughter613, this is beautiful, you put my disorganized notecard jumble to shame. Survive, Inspire, Unite, Change. These do sound like the four commands that spurred creation. "Inspire" chafes a little bit, from my perspective though. I'd like to suggest something indicative of initiative or individualism, something separate from the Unite command in a significant way, but not as powerful as Rebel, like how "survive' isn't the OPPOSITE of change, but it can have that implication if you see change as a form of destroying the old to make room for the new. I can't come up with anything better though, so i'm gonna subscribe to your framework as a jumping-off point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 8 hours ago, AirsickHighlander said: Kingsdaughter613, this is beautiful, you put my disorganized notecard jumble to shame. Survive, Inspire, Unite, Change. These do sound like the four commands that spurred creation. "Inspire" chafes a little bit, from my perspective though. I'd like to suggest something indicative of initiative or individualism, something separate from the Unite command in a significant way, but not as powerful as Rebel, like how "survive' isn't the OPPOSITE of change, but it can have that implication if you see change as a form of destroying the old to make room for the new. I can't come up with anything better though, so i'm gonna subscribe to your framework as a jumping-off point. The much longer, extensive and complicated discussion had several alternatives to Inspire. These included Will and Drive, among other synonyms. Inspire ended up being the best sounding Command, but in the sense of ‘Inspire to act’ as opposed to ‘be an Inspiration.’ Perhaps a better term would be Aspire? Hmm... I think I may go with that... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriodor Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 13 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: The much longer, extensive and complicated discussion had several alternatives to Inspire. These included Will and Drive, among other synonyms. Inspire ended up being the best sounding Command, but in the sense of ‘Inspire to act’ as opposed to ‘be an Inspiration.’ Perhaps a better term would be Aspire? Hmm... I think I may go with that... I think what I like most about this diagram is that it accounts for how Shards on the edge of each category bleed over into the other category a bit in intent. Wouldn't it make sense for Preservation to be opposite of Ruin though? Also the mural was split into 4 mostly symmetrical piece, which means that some of the command sections would be bigger and smaller. I feel like determining a reason for why a section or sections are different would be another big clue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, seriodor said: I think what I like most about this diagram is that it accounts for how Shards on the edge of each category bleed over into the other category a bit in intent. Wouldn't it make sense for Preservation to be opposite of Ruin though? Also the mural was split into 4 mostly symmetrical piece, which means that some of the command sections would be bigger and smaller. I feel like determining a reason for why a section or sections are different would be another big clue. They’re not directly opposite because both are external and one pulls while the other pushes. I’m considering swapping Preservation and Invention, though both R & P will still be external. Vin says the power is calling to her, so it can be argued Preservation Pulls, instead of Pushes. WoB is that the Shards were essentially equal at the time they split off. This is no longer true, but it used to be. So this is based off how they began. Edited November 24, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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