Shallan's Past and Weird Spren Stuff

[Anna9123]

On 11/19/2020 at 2:38 PM, ProfessorMLyon said:

I am confused what truths Shallan has spoken now. What truths did she speak to get Patternblade? 

And does this mean the Blade Kaladin used in the chasms was Testament? Did he not hear Testament screaming because of the oddity of the situation or because of what was going on with him? Or was it Pattern afterall?

So many questions I have now because of this revelation.  

Could this Be because There is still a bond with Testament?

[Anna9123]

On 11/29/2020 at 9:22 PM, IndigoAjah said:

We know the bond with Testament is salvageable, no? Because Kal's Bond with Syl, when he killed her by accident, was too.

And Adolin? Is his spren not healing too?

[crème de la crèmling]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:55 AM, Harrycrapper said:

Second, I also have a slightly different interpretation of how Shallan uses Testament in WoR. I think when she killed Tyn and when she encounters Taln, Testament is in her deadblade form, no different from an ordinary person using a deadeye Blade. But, when she changes the Blade's shape in the chasm and when she activates the Oathgate, Shallan is momentarily reviving her Truths spoken to Testament and the Shardblade acts as a true Radiant Blade. Shallan herself told Kaladin in the chasm that she can just take her bad thoughts and memories and shove it into a deep inaccessible part of her mind. So, per the WoB where Brandon says she's taking 1.1 step forward and 1 step back, I think she's momentarily acknowledging her Truths. I believe in the chasm, she was being deeply introspective and open with someone about her past for the first time in a very long time. So, the ability to change the shape of the Shardblade came easily, the Truth of her past was closer to the surface of her mind. In the case of the Oathgate, she saw that Renarin's Shardblade wasn't going to work. She knew that there was something wrong with all Shardblades, she said as much out loud, and she reasoned out that a living one would work. When Kaladin revived Syl, she said that she was only as dead as his Oaths, which means Testament is only as dead as the Truths Shallan spoke to her. So, that leads me to believe that Shallan is using her ability to tuck things away in her mind to bury those Truths and bringing them up in the moments she needs to have the advantages of a living Shardblade.

If true, it puts certain things in OB into a different context. Once she spoke the Truth of killing her mother to Pattern, she could now summon a living Shardblade without acknowledging her Truths to Testament. But, now she has to deal with the Truth of killing her mother which is also painful and she associated wielding a Shardblade with both killing her mother and killing Testament. That tangle caused her to have that mini panic attack when Adolin insisted she train with her Shardblade. Which resulted in her creating Radiant, a persona that didn't have the memory of killing Testament, so she was able to wield the Blade without smothering the Truth that she killed her mother while keeping the Truth of killing Testament buried. 

For me, the WoB regarding 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back has to do with something else. However, in RoW, there was evidence that things could really work that way (ex. a Radiant can gain certain benefits of an Ideal "rank" by merely being very close to it) and since the Cryptics seem to be extremely lenient and subjective with what they consider to be the Truth, I think it could be that Shallan is accessing the living version of Testament by being closer to the Truth of her existence. From what we know of Testament, I feel it's likely that she would be especially willing to bend things to help Shallan. 

I have my own interpretation of events that allows for Shallan to use the Patternblade by WoR Chapter 63 (this is the scene with Taln), but there's also this small observation that Syl makes that casts doubt on that: 

Quote

"Cryptics like to plan," Syl said slowly, as if recalling something long lost. "Yes . . . I remember. They debate and watch and never do anything. But . . ."

"What?" Kaladin said, rising.

"They're looking for someone," Syl said. "I've seen the signs. Soon, you might not be alone, Kaladin."

WoR Chapter 62: The One Who Killed Promises

The ellipsis in Chapter 60 that I suggested as a possible manifestation of the Patternblade could also be a possible moment where Shallan swears the first Ideal. She'd have to conceal that from herself for the same reasons I listed previously for the Shardblade; it's supposed to be Pattern, she can't be making a fresh oath to a spren she's already supposed to have bonded. Testament would have to be the living Shardblade in that case, in both the chasms and the Oathgate. Other possibilities include Syl being wrong, which has happened before, Syl perhaps referring to the Cryptics as a whole people, and this being an early sighting of another Cryptic (Design after Elhokar?) Context makes me think of Pattern, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the case. 

As for my interpretation, I'm almost completely certain that Testament was the Shardblade used to kill Tyn. I think it's a part of the 1.1 step forward reference there. Now that we have some more details of Shallan's mother's death, we can see that it was pretty much identical to how Tyn was killed. I'm going to quote both scenes below, which both depict fatal violence. 

Quote

Spoiler

 

“And Mother?” Shallan snapped. “Do you remember the feel of the Blade forming in our hands for the first time, Veil? I do. Do you remember the horror I felt at the strike, which I never meant to make?” 

Her mother, with stark red hair—a length of metal in her chest as her beautiful green eyes turned to coal. Burning out of her face. 

Shallan’s voice, screaming at what she’d done. Screaming, begging to take it back. Wishing she were dead. Wishing … Wishing …

RoW Chapter 93: Strong Enough

 

“So I’m going mad,” Tyn said. “Hearing voices. Seeing things. I guess part of me doesn’t want to do this.” She advanced, raising her blade. “I’m sorry that you have to learn the lesson this way. Sometimes, we must do things we don’t like, kid. Difficult things.” 

Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward. Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver Blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest. The woman barely had time to gasp in surprise as her eyes burned in her skull. Tyn’s corpse slid back off the weapon, collapsing in a heap. 

“Difficult things,” Shallan growled. “Yes. I believe I told you. I’ve learned that lesson already. Thank you.” She crawled to her feet, wobbling. 

WoR Chapter 34: Blossoms and Cake

 

 

To me, the Truth that young Shallan may have realized in that critical moment is that she could do those difficult things that "rip the soul apart." That scene in WoR also contains a moment of spontaneous Lightweaving that I usually see as being a marker of significant developments in Shallan's personal progress; for a moment there is a vision of "Shallan as a woman of the court," which might actually be symbolic of Shallan's mother or of some idealized version of Shallan.

This might be a sign of Shallan re-constructing this particular oath, and I tend to interpret it that way. Tyn's tutoring is something that Shallan will rely on extensively in the future, and Tyn was clearly fond of Shallan. Compare that to Shallan's belief that her mother was brave, and would have taught her art and philosophy. But Shallan had to kill Tyn, or die herself. When she talks about having learned that lesson already, there is a direct parallel to the death of her mother. If there's a moment where Shallan is closest to the Truth of Testament's existence, I think it's here.

In the chasms, she only shares her history with Kaladin after summoning her Shardblade, which doesn't scream and can change shape; the scene is from Kaladin's perspective and he summarizes what she says, and there is not an obvious mention of Shallan's mother, only of "the terrors she had known." But then again, it is a difficult thing to summon her Shardblade, which has caused her so much pain. Shallan has proven to herself that she can do those things. She needs to be able to do them in the chasms, because someone else needs her to be strong. Likewise at the Oathgate, where the Alethi forces are all depending on her. If there was ever a time to dig deep for that truth, it would be then. She knows she can do it, she has the living Shardblade, and she must use it.

Acknowledging that she can do those difficult, soul-destroying things is different from admitting what she has done in the past, and I think that is the 1 step back. I detailed what I believed was her Truth 2 to Pattern in a previous post. I still tend to believe that Pattern is the Shardblade in the scene with Taln, in the chasms, and at the Oathgate, and that she is using her memory tricks to obscure her Truths to him. When Shallan refers to her deeper truth, I think it is thematically connected to what Pattern called a "deep lie indeed." I interpret Shallan as saying, "Yes, I can do these difficult things . . . but only if I lie to myself about doing them."

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, crème de la crèmling said:

The ellipsis in Chapter 60 that I suggested as a possible manifestation of the Patternblade could also be a possible moment where Shallan swears the first Ideal. She'd have to conceal that from herself for the same reasons I listed previously for the Shardblade; it's supposed to be Pattern, she can't be making a fresh oath to a spren she's already supposed to have bonded. Testament would have to be the living Shardblade in that case, in both the chasms and the Oathgate. Other possibilities include Syl being wrong, which has happened before, Syl perhaps referring to the Cryptics as a whole people, and this being an early sighting of another Cryptic (Design after Elhokar?) Context makes me think of Pattern, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the case. 

I'm a bit averse to adding in spoken Truths that weren't explicitly conveyed to the reader. Going down that road, there are likely dozens of other instances where Shallan says something that could be a deep Truth but wasn't conveyed with the fanfare like the ones we know are Truth-Oaths. I can see an argument(though don't agree for reasons explained further explained below) for "I'm terrified" is a Truth Shallan spoke to Pattern and that's why she has a living Shardblade in WoR. But, I just can't bring myself to believe that Brandon sprinkled in hidden Truths to make the living Shardblade in WoR work, that just doesn't feel like Brandon to me. 

I was dumpster diving for WoBs and found this one that I think is relevant to the discussion, though should be taken with a grain of salt like all WoBs.

Quote

Havoc (paraphrased)

In Way of Kings, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from Words of Radiance that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She would not have been able to. Good question! Wow. No one has ever asked me that before.

GollanczFest London (Oct. 17, 2015)

If this is still true, that's a solid indication that certain parts of Shallan's Bond with Testament still function based on whether she wants to acknowledge Testament. There is zero possibility that at that point in WoK that her Bond with Pattern was advanced enough to summon a Shardblade and Brandon specifically says she would not be able to Soulcast without her attempt to summon her Shardblade. I think that also further indicates that Testament was the voice that asked "What are you?" Like I said, WoBs should be taken with a grain of salt, but this one seems more clear than some others and I don't think he's deliberately misinterpreting the question. 

[crème de la crèmling]

4 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I'm a bit averse to adding in spoken Truths that weren't explicitly conveyed to the reader. Going down that road, there are likely dozens of other instances where Shallan says something that could be a deep Truth but wasn't conveyed with the fanfare like the ones we know are Truth-Oaths. I can see an argument(though don't agree for reasons explained further explained below) for "I'm terrified" is a Truth Shallan spoke to Pattern and that's why she has a living Shardblade in WoR. But, I just can't bring myself to believe that Brandon sprinkled in hidden Truths to make the living Shardblade in WoR work, that just doesn't feel like Brandon to me. 

That's fair! The revelation of Testament totally just threw out all the rules for me, two spren is on the same level for me as hidden truths. I have mostly been interested in looking at solutions to the puzzle that haven't been suggested yet to add to the discussion. Shallan misremembers so many things and is so exceptionally good at lying that I personally don't find it strange that she might be telling the reader the same story she tells herself. 

I think the biggest problem for me in tracking these is that I never really see Shallan get a "these words are accepted" from anyone, not even in the scene which she specifically cites as a speaking a Truth to Pattern. I frequently wonder if it's the Cryptics themselves that judge how true or deep the Truths spoken are. Since Shallan's perception of truth changes throughout, her oaths and truths would be subject to change as she heals from her trauma. This could explain a continual violation and reconstruction of oaths. As people learn more, they change their minds, right?

I do find it just as plausible that Shallan is leaning on that bond and reviving it as she needs Testament, especially because of that Shardblade summoning / Soulcasting bit. I think Shallan herself comes to a similar conclusion, as her powers still worked in "some small ways." (She needs to earn my trust back, though.) The fact that she can still use her Resonance is another big point to consider. 

Kaladin's arc in WoR reads differently to me now, almost like he is acting out the mechanics of Shallan's past on the page. He was still able to reach out along the bond to hear the sound of weeping, although in RoW the official line as Adolin knows it is that Kaladin only "nearly killed her." Syl says that she died both in WoR and OB, but maybe no one believes it because she's either not still or never became a deadeye. I know there's no way to know, but if he had been on a slower road to reconstructing those oaths, would his progress look like Shallan's?

When Shallan relives breaking her oaths, she describes a terrible ripping sensation; could this be the part of Testament that gets ripped away from what has merged with Shallan's spiritweb? If she can still use her powers, does this mean that enough of Testament's soul is left in her spiritweb to use them, whereas Kaladin's bond with Syl perhaps had not yet advanced to the point where they were irrevocably merged? He describes the pain as "not getting inside." Could this be what Maya meant when she talked about expecting pain, but not death? I think this is something that would also be a pretty intriguing concept to apply to someone like Helaran. 

[AquaRegia he/him]

On 5/26/2021 at 7:31 PM, Harrycrapper said:

I'm a bit averse to adding in spoken Truths that weren't explicitly conveyed to the reader... that just doesn't feel like Brandon to me. 

I LOLed at this.  Shallan is not Adolin or Kaladin.  So much of her journey has happened offscreen, before tWoK even started.  She has intentionally buried so many memories, and she's so good at lying to herself (and us), that in some sense, she is discovering her own past along with us.  It won't surprise me one bit to find out that some more juicy things happened while we weren't looking, because she couldn't handle knowing it at the time.  They WILL be explicitly conveyed to us, in retrospect, when Shallan is ready.  Not unlike Dalinar's memories being pruned by Cultivation, then growing back later... except that Shallan does it to herself.

I'm sorry to drag this old topic up again, but it's one of my very favorites, and every time someone new posts questions or arguments about Shallan's Ideals, I go back and read it again!

If you are scoring at home, I'm 99% sure it was Testament she used to kill Tyn, 87% sure it was Testament in the chasms with Kaladin, and 50/50 on the Oathgate at the end of WoR.