Karger he/him Posted October 13, 2020 Posted October 13, 2020 Firstly this is not a ship as much as I would enjoy our princess finding someone. This is really about Shallan but I needed a spoiler free title. Sorry. That out of the way I want to discuss Shallan's character development along with a few tidbits that have been troubling me. Allow me to review the following. A Lightweaver's growth is fueled by making choices pertaining to who and what they are. The Lightweaver then vocalizes these truths as an oath. So far Shallan has said the following. I am terrified. I am a murderer. I destroyed my family. I deserve to be happy(the last two are paraphrased) Keep this in mind when reviewing some of the things members of the GBs and Shallan say to each other. “I seek the truth,” Shallan said. “Wherever it may be, whoever may hold it. That’s who I am. Let Shallan Davar be a Radiant, conformist and noble. Let Veil come to us. ... And let her find truth. Mraize is not just making Shallan an offer here. He is defining Shallan's alters and setting them at odds with each other. He is specifically tempting the one he finds most tractable to adopt a different worldview then the rest. “ You always make me want to do the things you ask,” Shallan said. “You tempt me not just with rewards, but with the secrets—or the dangers—themselves... ...You become a hunter in truth. I have known from the beginning your potential.” Mraize is pleased by this because she is declaring herself to be the person he wants her to. Someone who can be tempted and who views resisting him as difficult but is nevertheless committed, intelligent, independent and resourceful. What this means for Shallan. Shallan's most annoying quality in the view of many readers is her paranoia. She does not talk with people who would almost certainly support, aid, and educate her. She continues to avoid asking for help or telling what she knows. She avoids any form of confrontation and only trusts at the minimal level necessary to work with other human beings. In the context of how she sees herself this makes a lot of sense though. She is a terrified murderer on the run for crimes that weigh down her soul and that she feels the people most important to her could not possibly forgive her for. She now acknowledges that she has the right to be happy but that does not make trusting easier just more nessesary. Switching into Azure(Vivenna). Azure's inclusion made me very happy. The cosmere exists! People do travel an adventures! Also in terms of rugged aventurering. The student has indeed become the master! However including her also gives us some problems. Yes we know from chapter 13 that cosmere background stuff will be important in SA. However having Azure just show up say cryptic things(not a pun) do cool and useful things and then leave strays a bit close to a deus ex machina for my tastes. There is also some other stuff that I think should be noted. The following contains most of the info me have about the 17th shard(not us or at least not all of us). Spoiler for length highlighted important sections. Spoiler Dragon13 Are there requirements to join the Seventeenth Shard, and would they accept, for lack of a better term, a non-enhanced member? Brandon Sanderson Yes and yes... Baon is not Invested... Questioner 1 What would they not like? 'Cause, like, we know they don't like Hoid, and what he's doing-- *laughter* Brandon Sanderson They do like what Khriss is doing, alright? This is an acceptable thing to them. Questioner 1 ...What about when people start integrating themselves with a culture, is that gonna make problems? Brandon Sanderson They would prefer that people didn't do that. Questioner 2 So not Vasher? Brandon Sanderson Not Va-- Vasher is very far from being Seventeenth Shard. *laughter* So very far. Argent Would you say they are a community of scholars? Brandon Sanderson They are a community-- They are not all scholars, so I would not say that. I would say they are interested parties who do not want any planets to get destroyed. Questioner 3 So they're the Apocalypse Guard? *laughter* Brandon Sanderson No, they aren't really able to prevent these sorts of things. They're more like the-- Oh what do they call them in DC? The Watchers? ...But those guys are super powerful and stuff, so it's not like that. But you can imagine it's something like that. "We're watching, we're studying' we're investigating, and we're trying to prevent-- ...They're like Starfleet, right? They've got some Starfleet stuff right? "We're gonna go research and study these people, but we shouldn't be involved." It's less about Prime Directive, and more about "What if something we do causes-- exacerbates the conflict between the Shards." The Shards split up for a reason, is what they think, right? Shards split up for a reason, they should continue to be split up, we should not dabble in bringing them together. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) I think Azure is at least unofficially acting in concert with the 17th. I don't think she is an official member. I think her mission is more of an off the books/indirect move they are making in an attempt to keep the shards apart. I think their goal(through her) is keeping NB (and whoever carried it) from interfering in the competition between teams Odium and Honor. In the view of the 17th if it causes Odium a lot of pain and he gets free he might go directly for Endowment and cause a lot of damage. Arranging for an experienced, intelligent, and awesome person to receive a bounty for getting it and then bringing it somewhere safe would solve a lot of problems. What this means. I don't think Azure is going to be successful in getting NB any time soon. Doing so would make including NB relatively pointless. Besides I don't want NB and Szeth to be separated before Szeth does his entire arc in book five. I do think however that Shallan will eventually have the chance to turn tables on the GBs. When she does she will have to make a choice about what she wants to do to them. Join their numbers? Work her way up their ladder? Take out all of her issues on them? Or does she choose to move passed her paranoia and let someone else chase this thread. The GB higher ups are almost certainly not liked by the 17th. Letting a good person do this particular job without her own oversight would be a healthy thing for Shallan. Thanks to whoever actually read all that. I wanted to get this out before chapter 15 crushes my so carefully crafted theory. If you can comment before then it would be great. 2
GriffinMaze Posted October 13, 2020 Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) So this big long post to say "Azure and Shallan might work together"? You didn't even actually conclude your post into a final thought Edited October 13, 2020 by GriffinMaze
Karger he/him Posted October 13, 2020 Author Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, GriffinMaze said: So this big long post to say "Azure and Shallan might work together"? Shallan will choose to trust Azure to handle the GBs after turning tables on them rather then further involving herself with a seductive and toxic organization. 1 hour ago, GriffinMaze said: You didn't even actually conclude your post into a final thought Does this not count? 1 hour ago, Karger said: The GB higher ups are almost certainly not liked by the 17th. Letting a good person do this particular job without her own oversight would be a healthy thing for Shallan. Edited October 13, 2020 by Karger
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted October 13, 2020 Posted October 13, 2020 19 hours ago, Karger said: Firstly this is not a ship as much as I would enjoy our princess finding someone. This is really about Shallan but I needed a spoiler free title. Sorry. That out of the way I want to discuss Shallan's character development along with a few tidbits that have been troubling me. Allow me to review the following. A Lightweaver's growth is fueled by making choices pertaining to who and what they are. The Lightweaver then vocalizes these truths as an oath. So far Shallan has said the following. I am terrified. I am a murderer. I destroyed my family. I deserve to be happy(the last two are paraphrased) Keep this in mind when reviewing some of the things members of the GBs and Shallan say to each other. “I seek the truth,” Shallan said. “Wherever it may be, whoever may hold it. That’s who I am. Let Shallan Davar be a Radiant, conformist and noble. Let Veil come to us. ... And let her find truth. Mraize is not just making Shallan an offer here. He is defining Shallan's alters and setting them at odds with each other. He is specifically tempting the one he finds most tractable to adopt a different worldview then the rest. “ You always make me want to do the things you ask,” Shallan said. “You tempt me not just with rewards, but with the secrets—or the dangers—themselves... ...You become a hunter in truth. I have known from the beginning your potential.” Mraize is pleased by this because she is declaring herself to be the person he wants her to. Someone who can be tempted and who views resisting him as difficult but is nevertheless committed, intelligent, independent and resourceful. What this means for Shallan. Shallan's most annoying quality in the view of many readers is her paranoia. She does not talk with people who would almost certainly support, aid, and educate her. She continues to avoid asking for help or telling what she knows. She avoids any form of confrontation and only trusts at the minimal level necessary to work with other human beings. In the context of how she sees herself this makes a lot of sense though. She is a terrified murderer on the run for crimes that weigh down her soul and that she feels the people most important to her could not possibly forgive her for. She now acknowledges that she has the right to be happy but that does not make trusting easier just more nessesary. Switching into Azure(Vivenna). Azure's inclusion made me very happy. The cosmere exists! People do travel an adventures! Also in terms of rugged aventurering. The student has indeed become the master! However including her also gives us some problems. Yes we know from chapter 13 that cosmere background stuff will be important in SA. However having Azure just show up say cryptic things(not a pun) do cool and useful things and then leave strays a bit close to a deus ex machina for my tastes. There is also some other stuff that I think should be noted. The following contains most of the info me have about the 17th shard(not us or at least not all of us). Spoiler for length highlighted important sections. Hide contents Dragon13 Are there requirements to join the Seventeenth Shard, and would they accept, for lack of a better term, a non-enhanced member? Brandon Sanderson Yes and yes... Baon is not Invested... Questioner 1 What would they not like? 'Cause, like, we know they don't like Hoid, and what he's doing-- *laughter* Brandon Sanderson They do like what Khriss is doing, alright? This is an acceptable thing to them. Questioner 1 ...What about when people start integrating themselves with a culture, is that gonna make problems? Brandon Sanderson They would prefer that people didn't do that. Questioner 2 So not Vasher? Brandon Sanderson Not Va-- Vasher is very far from being Seventeenth Shard. *laughter* So very far. Argent Would you say they are a community of scholars? Brandon Sanderson They are a community-- They are not all scholars, so I would not say that. I would say they are interested parties who do not want any planets to get destroyed. Questioner 3 So they're the Apocalypse Guard? *laughter* Brandon Sanderson No, they aren't really able to prevent these sorts of things. They're more like the-- Oh what do they call them in DC? The Watchers? ...But those guys are super powerful and stuff, so it's not like that. But you can imagine it's something like that. "We're watching, we're studying' we're investigating, and we're trying to prevent-- ...They're like Starfleet, right? They've got some Starfleet stuff right? "We're gonna go research and study these people, but we shouldn't be involved." It's less about Prime Directive, and more about "What if something we do causes-- exacerbates the conflict between the Shards." The Shards split up for a reason, is what they think, right? Shards split up for a reason, they should continue to be split up, we should not dabble in bringing them together. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) I think Azure is at least unofficially acting in concert with the 17th. I don't think she is an official member. I think her mission is more of an off the books/indirect move they are making in an attempt to keep the shards apart. I think their goal(through her) is keeping NB (and whoever carried it) from interfering in the competition between teams Odium and Honor. In the view of the 17th if it causes Odium a lot of pain and he gets free he might go directly for Endowment and cause a lot of damage. Arranging for an experienced, intelligent, and awesome person to receive a bounty for getting it and then bringing it somewhere safe would solve a lot of problems. What this means. I don't think Azure is going to be successful in getting NB any time soon. Doing so would make including NB relatively pointless. Besides I don't want NB and Szeth to be separated before Szeth does his entire arc in book five. I do think however that Shallan will eventually have the chance to turn tables on the GBs. When she does she will have to make a choice about what she wants to do to them. Join their numbers? Work her way up their ladder? Take out all of her issues on them? Or does she choose to move passed her paranoia and let someone else chase this thread. The GB higher ups are almost certainly not liked by the 17th. Letting a good person do this particular job without her own oversight would be a healthy thing for Shallan. Thanks to whoever actually read all that. I wanted to get this out before chapter 15 crushes my so carefully crafted theory. If you can comment before then it would be great. What I get out of all this: Brandon confuses DC and Marvel? Oh, the horror... (Watchers are Marvel.) Also: Spoiler Baon is a (potential) Sandbender.
agrabes Posted October 14, 2020 Posted October 14, 2020 Didn't end up seeing this until just now but Chapter 15 ended up not being strongly related to Shallan or Azure, so we can still speculate. I don't know if you did lay out what exactly it is you wanted in the post, but I guess I'll assume it's that Azure and Shallan meet again in Shadesmar and go on adventures? I think the concept at a high level is good. Mraize is tempting Shallan with forbidden knowledge and really contributing to her instability. Azure seems to be a force for good so far who would probably provide a good alternative viewpoint on the stuff Shallan learns from Mraize. I think it depends on how far things go down that plotline. If it's a major plot for RoW, with Shallan being conflicted between that drive for knowledge vs. hating the Ghostbloods, then I'd say there's a really high chance she will meet up with Azure again. I'm not so sure on the idea of Azure being tied to the 17th Shard. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems like she is more affiliated with the interests of whatever is going on back on Nalthis. I'd guess someone from there clued her in about Nightblood and she was given a mission to get him "out of circulation" so to speak. I'd guess Vasher/Zahel is considered a criminal on Nalthis, for crimes he committed there. Maybe even just for the act of leaving and abandoning Nalthis when they may have needed him. Azure has what seems to be basically Nightblood 2.0, so she either must have learned a lot herself or was taught by people who know about what Vasher and his wife did in creating Nightblood. That implies to me that her reasons for being "against" Vasher/Zahel are based on some history between the two of them on Nalthis. Anyway, yeah I think this is a good call. It could be interesting to see the two of them interact and possibly get to know each other a little better.
Karger he/him Posted October 14, 2020 Author Posted October 14, 2020 44 minutes ago, agrabes said: I don't know if you did lay out what exactly it is you wanted in the post, but I guess I'll assume it's that Azure and Shallan meet again in Shadesmar and go on adventures? Shallan deciding to trust Azure to deal with the GB. 45 minutes ago, agrabes said: I'm not so sure on the idea of Azure being tied to the 17th Shard. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems like she is more affiliated with the interests of whatever is going on back on Nalthis I agree. The 17th shard's involvement would be indirect under these circumstances.
Rainier Posted October 14, 2020 Posted October 14, 2020 On 10/12/2020 at 5:30 PM, Karger said: I think Azure is at least unofficially acting in concert with the 17th. I don't think she is an official member. I think her mission is more of an off the books/indirect move they are making in an attempt to keep the shards apart. I think their goal(through her) is keeping NB (and whoever carried it) from interfering in the competition between teams Odium and Honor. I think you're right about this, and fortunately chapter 15 didn't do squat to squash it. So the 17th Shard says Shards should be separate like everyone Intended, Hoid and Vasher by contrast combine the Shards and muddle their power together. Vivenna is either pursues Nightblood or Vasher off-world, presumably to bring them back. Listen to this: Quote Shallan nodded, then glanced again at Azure’s sword. “You said … the honorspren have information on your bounty?” “Yeah. Borea thinks the weapon I’m chasing passed through their fortress a few years ago.” “Your bounty is a … weapon?” “And the one who brought it to your land. A Shardblade that bleeds black smoke.” Azure This sounds exactly like the kind of bounty the 17th Shard would offer, given their known Intent. Bounty on the item, and the smuggler. 2 hours ago, agrabes said: I'm not so sure on the idea of Azure being tied to the 17th Shard. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems like she is more affiliated with the interests of whatever is going on back on Nalthis. I'd guess someone from there clued her in about Nightblood and she was given a mission to get him "out of circulation" so to speak. I'd guess Vasher/Zahel is considered a criminal on Nalthis, for crimes he committed there. I think Nightblood is the fugitive, more than Vasher. It's the single most heavily invested thing in the Cosmere. Plus there's some wiggle room. "The one who brought it to your land," almost certainly Vasher. Almost.
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