+Bliev she/her Posted October 6, 2020 Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) I've been re-reading some threads on this trying to understand, as I am finding it difficult to understand how the intricacies of one specific common theory would work. My summary of the argument I have seen is thus: Formless is a fully developed identity within the Shallan "collective". Formless is likely working with the Ghostbloods. Formless likely killed Ialai. (Some alternative arguments I've seen, that I'm not addressing here are: Formless is childlike Shallan who must be acknowledged before healing can happen, or Formless is the OG Shallan.) The textual evidence we have thus far for Formless is: Chapter 13 Quote “If you do this, little knife,” he said, “you won’t need to be bribed any longer. Once you complete the mission with Restares and return, you may ask me any questions, and I will answer with what I know. About the world. About the Radiants. About other places. About you, and your past…” He thought to tease that last one. But at it, Shallan shuddered, trembling deep inside. Formless grew stronger each time she thought about that. Quote She couldn’t see those memories; didn’t want to see them. As she shied away from them, something dark shifted inside her, growing stronger. Formless. Shallan didn’t want to be the person who had done those things. That… that person could not… not be loved… Chapter 12 Quote “There are some, half-formed,” Radiant said, turning away. “They wait, to see if the Three really can work. Or if it could crumble, letting them out. They aren’t real. Not as real as I am. And yet. And yet…” She met Kaladin’s eyes. “Shallan wouldn’t wish me to share that much. But as her friend, you should know.” Chapter 9 Quote But it’s possible, isn’t it? Shallan asked. It’s possible that they would leave me if they knew. Radiant had no reply. And deep within Shallan, something else stirred. Formless. She had told herself that she would never create a new persona, and she wouldn’t. Formless wasn’t real. But the possibility of it frightened Veil. And anything that frightened Veil terrified Shallan. And the doubts about her "realness": Chapter 7: Quote We didn’t do this, Veil thought. We decided not to kill her, right? I… Shallan’s mind began to fuzz, everything feeling blurry. Had she done this? She’d wanted to. But she hadn’t, had she? She was… was more in control than that. I didn’t do it, Shallan thought. She was reasonably certain. Chapter 9 Quote I didn’t kill Ialai though, Shallan thought. I was close to it, but I didn’t. So I’m not theirs entirely. Chapter 12 Quote Importantly, she wasn’t experiencing continued memory loss. So maybe she was fine. She’d stabilized. Everything was getting better. Surely it was. Here are my questions, which maybe y'all can help me think through? How can Formless be a fully realized identity without Shallan, Radiant, Veil and Pattern knowing, or being suspicious? Adolin seems to know when she switches personas, has he never met Formless? Her squires who go on missions with her, have they never met Formless? If Formless is a GB, how can Mraize be sure he can communicate with her and train her and trust her if she doesn't come out to play? If Pattern isn't aware of Formless, is Formless not a Radiant (e.g., can't Lightweave or use Pattern as a shardblade)? How does that work? She states she hasn't had continued memory loss, but we know she's an unreliable narrator. But she's living in Urithiru and married--wouldn't someone have noticed if Shallan has black outs where she doesn't remember recent events? Thanks! Edited October 6, 2020 by Bliev 3
Xerun Posted October 6, 2020 Posted October 6, 2020 So my current working theory is that Diagonarthis joined with Shallan as a child and she started the whole release of the void Spren. Formless is merely where she’s trapped the unmade. Now to clarify I have no idea of how DID works but to answer your questions: 1. I would imagine there would be gaps the others are not aware of. The memories and knowledge belong to Formless and not the 3. 2. Formless would not show itself while Adolin is around. Adolin wasn’t really apparent of Radiant or Veil until she showed them to him and then it was only through mutual agreement from each persona. 3. as above 4. Mraize seems to have always trusted Shallan once she proved herself even once he discovered she was a Knight Radiant. I imagine where Shallan seems distant and guarded Formless is more willing. 5. Hard to say without reading more of the chapters. I’ve been thinking lately that the Shallan we see is not the original Shallan and is infact the personality that won out. That perhaps originally she was at the 4th ideal and that that has backtracked to the 1st, with Shallan reswearing those Oaths again during the books. In my theory when she is Formless it’s more Diagonarthis taking control 2
Calderis he/him Posted October 7, 2020 Posted October 7, 2020 Formless, is... Not a single thing, per Radiant. It's indistinct possibilities that have not become personas. It's potential personas that may or may not gain form depending on a variety of factors in Shallan's stability. 2
+Bliev she/her Posted October 7, 2020 Author Posted October 7, 2020 8 hours ago, Calderis said: Formless, is... Not a single thing, per Radiant. It's indistinct possibilities that have not become personas. It's potential personas that may or may not gain form depending on a variety of factors in Shallan's stability. That's exactly how I've interpreted it as well. I have seen a lot of folks (including that poll on who Ialai's killer is) suggest that Formless is already a realized alter who is a GB operative, which was what I kind of wanted to understand more.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted October 9, 2020 Posted October 9, 2020 I agree with Bliev, I dont buy that Formless is one of Mraizes operatives, or that Formless killed Ialai. It doesn't really make sense, and the implication in the text is quite clearly that Formless is not established as of yet. I do think though that the as-of-yet nonexistent Formless is a distinct personality, and not various different potential ones, like Cal is suggesting. Shallan and Veil seems to be scared of "Formless" in singular, which I read as a single, specific persona. 2
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted October 9, 2020 Posted October 9, 2020 There is an idea that Formless is what remains of the original Shallan - assuming Shallan as we know her is herself a mask, an identity to hide from her past - and that this original identity, possibly combined with all the other possible versions of Shallan that could form, was recruited by the Ghostbloods, or approached them somehow, possibly making use of Shallan's ability to blank out and ignore things - after all, if she can find time to talk to Mraize in the "garden", and no-one knows it's her or wonders where she went (and if she Lightwove a decoy), if Formless can do likewise, and the Ghostbloods have operatives everywhere, then Shallan might not ever realise she sometimes - maybe even in the middle of a conversation - is replaced by Formless. Does Shallan have to be awake? Could it have happened at some point when she was doing her impersonation at the start? It's also possible that Formless is an aggregate of possibilities only, and that some of those are willing to work with Mraize if he promised them a chance to become real (not quite the same but reminding me of Alia and the Baron in Children of Dune, a strong mind rising up to suppress the others, but the others are still there, able to break free when control is relaxed, Radiant and Veil as benevolent versions of Vladimir Harkonnen) and so this mass within Shallan gained some direction. And if Formless - as Shallan notes - grew stronger when Mraize promised to reveal Shallan's past to her ... And, of course, its possible Formless had nothing to do with any of this :-P 1
Rainier Posted October 9, 2020 Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: There is an idea that Formless is what remains of the original Shallan - assuming Shallan as we know her is herself a mask, an identity to hide from her past I'm very much in favor of the remnant theory. Formless is not complete, it is not the original, it's the scraps of fabric left over when the other garments have been sewn. You could call it the OG fabric, but call it what it is: remnants, scraps, and off-cuts. As for how Shallan/Veil/Radiant can operate without knowing, that's easy. The same way she can operate with all of the giant gaps in her memory, the same way she can operate while denying reality and hiding from her own truths. I don't see any reason why Shallan/Veil/Radiant would necessarily know everything, and in fact the opposite is canon: she continues to operate despite not knowing everything about herself. This is just one more thing she's forgotten, repressed, or otherwise avoided, which is her defining characteristic. 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: And if Formless - as Shallan notes - grew stronger when Mraize promised to reveal Shallan's past to her ... Almost as if Formless is the personification of all of Shallan's problems with truth, honesty, and memory... 1
+Bliev she/her Posted October 9, 2020 Author Posted October 9, 2020 This is really helpful, thanks. So the idea is that Formless may be either OG Shallan or remnants of everything left over that Shallan can't yet make sense of about herself, and that they somehow coalesce to work with Mraize in blinks of moments that are shrouded in amnesia, such that the other personalities are tricked into thinking that Formless not yet fully formed, and thus a potential risk and not a current one. I still am a bit lost on the idea that Veil, Radiant, Shallan and pattern would all be in the dark about another fully operational personality, given the textual evidence we've received thus far. But Brandon has succeeded in keeping us off kilter on Shallan's state for like 3 books now, so who really knows. lol 3
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