[RoW] Kaladin: Master of the Coup D'etat

[IntentAwesome]

Kaladin is often portrayed as the ultimate combat soldier. However, Kaladin's MO is actually to infiltrate a group of people and take over. We see this time and time again, beginning with his leadership in Amaram's army in which he made demands even of other squadleaders. While a slave, he consistently rose to lead each group of slaves and led them in a rebellion, although "rebellion" usually meant escape. Kaladin forcibly took charge of Bridge Four. And, perhaps most notably, Kaladin infiltrates the City Guard and eventually takes charge in order to lead them to storm the palace. 

Although he doesn't necessarily depose the previous leader and doesn't seek power, Kaladin is still essentially infiltrating and taking over various groups of people.

I think Kaladin's role is shaping up to be the bridge between humans and Singers. I'd love to see him use this skill, not to take charge of the Singers, but to sway them away from Odium and the Fused. 

Ultimately, the solution to the whole Fused are reborn dilemma is for Singers to begin refusing them bodies to inhabit, which Venli has demonstrated to be possible. 

 

[Honorless he/him]

If anyone could be that inspiring, it would be him, so I could see that happening.

 

I could also see a Bondsmith, Truthwatcher, Lightweaver or Willshaper doing it as after reading their official description. Bondsmiths bring people together; Truthwatchers don't like people in positions of power lying, which Odium is doing to the Fused, Singers & spren, as he wants to destroy Roshar; Lightweavers inspire; Willshapers are all about freedom.

Venli is a Willshaper and a Singer, she was the one largely responsible for bringing the Everstorm, and she's the one Odium is using as an envoy to the Singers, so narratively and thematically, it would make sense for her to take on the role of convincing the Singers to not side with Odium.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Honorless

[IntentAwesome]

Yes, I agree about Venli’s role. We have already seen her start to teach about the Listeners. But they will need someone on the human side they trust and respect. 

[Harbour he/him]

I have the same feeling. I mean, knowing the tropes, its pretty safe to predict potential ways for Kaladin characters. Brandon doesnt simply describe Kaladin understanding of Parshendi. I believe he is gonna save Singers, took them from Odiums grip and bring together with Humans.

[Robot]

Kaladin has consistently thought of the listeners as very honorable since WoK

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Very good points @IntentAwesome, there's also the fact that Kaladin has already infiltrated a group of Singers, and justifiably quickly gained their trust.

I think Kaladin and Venli will be instrumental in creating an alternate path for some of the Singers to leave Odium's side and join the coalition, but I also think that this will most likely be mediated by the character that they both have a past history with and who has been suspiciously absent for quite awhile, Rlain.

I think it's interesting too that once the Singers had their Connection restored they spoke with their own regional dialects, and further they took on some of the basic biases of the city/kingdom that they had lived in when in dull form. This implies a sort of innate allegiance because of a shared system of values among groupings of Singers, so I think it will be easier to convince some singers to switch sides than others, and we might see something similar to the fault lines in Dalinar's coalition mirrored in the Singers who are willing/unwilling to join the coalition.

One other interesting thing to consider is how much are Singers affected by the Everstorm? Are there inherent dangers with having the Singers join the coalition? If something as fundamental as their Connection can be altered through the storm, what else is Odium able to do to the Singers when his heavily invested Storm passes over them? We know he was able to use it to communicate with and torture Venli (who admittedly had bonded a voidspren), but with the Singers having gemhearts (an internal focus for investiture), the warnings about the baleful influence of their gods in the Listeners songs, and the fact that without their control or consent the Singers in dull form had their Connection restored, it seems like Odium might be able to exert some malign influence over the Singers that do join the coalition. Singers have to willingly open themselves to become Fused, but it seems like Venli didn't have a choice when she was assigned Envoy form. Also, at the very least, it seems like Odium could use his power through the Everstorm to torture and interrogate coalition Singers, essentially using the Singers as an unwitting fifth column.

[Robot]

I believe that they have to be willing to transform for the everstorm to do anything to them.

[LordTheodore]

4 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Very good points @IntentAwesome, there's also the fact that Kaladin has already infiltrated a group of Singers, and justifiably quickly gained their trust.

I think Kaladin and Venli will be instrumental in creating an alternate path for some of the Singers to leave Odium's side and join the coalition, but I also think that this will most likely be mediated by the character that they both have a past history with and who has been suspiciously absent for quite awhile, Rlain.

I think it's interesting too that once the Singers had their Connection restored they spoke with their own regional dialects, and further they took on some of the basic biases of the city/kingdom that they had lived in when in dull form. This implies a sort of innate allegiance because of a shared system of values among groupings of Singers, so I think it will be easier to convince some singers to switch sides than others, and we might see something similar to the fault lines in Dalinar's coalition mirrored in the Singers who are willing/unwilling to join the coalition.

One other interesting thing to consider is how much are Singers affected by the Everstorm? Are there inherent dangers with having the Singers join the coalition? If something as fundamental as their Connection can be altered through the storm, what else is Odium able to do to the Singers when his heavily invested Storm passes over them? We know he was able to use it to communicate with and torture Venli (who admittedly had bonded a voidspren), but with the Singers having gemhearts (an internal focus for investiture), the warnings about the baleful influence of their gods in the Listeners songs, and the fact that without their control or consent the Singers in dull form had their Connection restored, it seems like Odium might be able to exert some malign influence over the Singers that do join the coalition. Singers have to willingly open themselves to become Fused, but it seems like Venli didn't have a choice when she was assigned Envoy form. Also, at the very least, it seems like Odium could use his power through the Everstorm to torture and interrogate coalition Singers, essentially using the Singers as an unwitting fifth column.

Would Odium doing such a thing give Dalinar an opportunity to Force a contest of champions?

[GudThymes he/him]

On 8/12/2020 at 10:05 PM, IntentAwesome said:

Ultimately, the solution to the whole Fused are reborn dilemma is for Singers to begin refusing them bodies to inhabit, which Venli has demonstrated to be possible.

I love this idea and want to dig into it more. Though the scene were Venli becomes an envoyform rather than a Fused presents a few conflicting pieces of evidence, imo.

First is Timbre, we know that it (forget if it's he/she) has been following Venli since they found Eshonai's body, and has found it's way to share Venli's gemheart. Is Timbre what made Venli special?

Second is the voice in the that scene. We hear the fused speaking to Venli trying to enter her body, and another more powerful voice says that they plan on using her. I'm not sure who this voice is, Odium makes a lot of sense, given that he does end up using her as an envoy. However, I personally believe that it was the Stormfather. The voice is described to be grandfatherly (or similar) and the text is in the same italics as the Stormfather's booming voice.

The last piece is thing to consider is how the singers change forms. They go into the storm and cultivate a certain feeling in order to attract the spren to bond with -- Or bring the spren with them in a gemstone and still have to cultivate the feeling. Even then, there's room for error, they aren't in full control. We know that Venli and Demid et. al were tricked by Ulim to believe they were getting a new form and not becoming the Fused.

 

If that info becomes widespread and like you say the Singers refuse the bodies. Would that be enough to prevent Fused from inhabiting singers in the storms? Or are they at risk of being transformed anytime they are caught out in an Everstorm?

 

[delphinousy]

i've wondered if kaladin and rlain and venli were going to break off and form a 3rd size between odium and dalinar. while i believe that dalinar would be open to peace with the parshendi/voidbringers, the rest of the 'humans' that he will eventually ally with won't be, so he'd be limited in being able to make piece with even the neutral singers. I also think that dalinar is going to be following in tanavasts footsteps and trying to create a new oathpact to restore the previous cycling nature but with improvements, which means that he's angling for a champions fight with odium, and i fell like kaladin and several others will, if their not already there, get tot he point of wanting to make a different solution.

so, i can totally see kaladin and venli making a human/parshendi/singer faction, and having some of the other random races on roshar join in, and be working for peace, sometimes in conflict or agreeance with both sides.

[ZenBossanova]

Kaladin's "problem" is that the two cardinal virtues of the Windrunners are Protection and Leadership. 

He has focused heavily on Protection - if anything too much. But now that he has been pulled off of active field duty, his growth will involve leading from Urithiru. Kaladin doesn't see it now, but this is a huge growth opportunity for him. He going to have to move from subconcious 'taking charge', to actively leading, not only the Windrunners, but I predict, all of Roshar, as an equal to Dalinar. 

I also predict, that in book 4 or 5, Kaladin will have a "I am Unity" moment, like Dalinar had. Other Key Radiants (Shallan, Venli, Szeth, etc) will have similar moments. 

[Second-of-the-Dawn]

Good points, all of you. One of Kaladin's greatest strengths, and one of his biggest weaknesses, is his ability to see two sides of an issue. This allows him to remain flexible, and make the honorable choice, like at the end of WoR, when he stands up to Moash and Graves. But it also incapacitates him in the palace as Kholinar is falling,resulting in Elhokar's death. I think that will enable him to be able to sway at least some Singers, put him on good terms with Venli and Leshwi, and perhaps convincing one of them to defect and bring others with them.

[LightReader she/her]

On 9/28/2020 at 0:10 PM, Second-of-the-Dawn said:

Good points, all of you. One of Kaladin's greatest strengths, and one of his biggest weaknesses, is his ability to see two sides of an issue. This allows him to remain flexible, and make the honorable choice, like at the end of WoR, when he stands up to Moash and Graves. But it also incapacitates him in the palace as Kholinar is falling,resulting in Elhokar's death. I think that will enable him to be able to sway at least some Singers, put him on good terms with Venli and Leshwi, and perhaps convincing one of them to defect and bring others with them.

His ability to see two sides of the issue could serve him really well as an ambassador. Dalinar mentions him becoming an ambassador to Azir, but I really like the idea that he could be the ambassador to Venli’s group of listeners in the future instead.