5th Ideal Power Speculation

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

I'm fairly sure this idea will have been suggested before, but I want to try and dive deeply into it for the sake of it, really. I want to know if you guys think it'll happen or not.

So, then. The theory/hypothesis.

Will the 5th ideal cause the Radiant and Spren's spiritwebs to be so thoroughly connected that the two become indistinguishable in the SR, thus causing them to become Cognitively and Physically the same being? I suppose the big points against this would be 1. If we've seen Nale's Highspren on-screen, since he's a 5th ideal skybreaker (but also a Herald which might change things) and 2. How would Shardblade summoning work if that's the case? We already know a single spren can't manifest as two separate pieces of shardblade because that involves splitting their spiritweb, which, OUCH. So if this was the case, there would need to be some alternative. Perhaps we've seen a proto-form of this, when Dalinar manifests a not-Blade out of stormlight to use the Oathgate and flee. If a 5th Ideal Radiant could do that reliably and safely, whatever it is (i think it was partially condensed stormlight, personally), then they wouldn't need to split their spiritweb to manifest a Shardblade. Alternatively, they could just do something like FMA and have a sword-arm instead.

Another consequence of this would be that the Radiant/Spren hybrid would take on physical traits from both components, which could have some pretty cool visual alterations. Like imagine how a full-truth Lightweaver could look, with that weird, almost glassy Cryptic cloak, maybe their face has a moving tattoo that matches the pattern of their Cryptic (or a new pattern that represents the Radiant AND their Cryptic!). That would be SO cool.

In terms of how this affects powers, with effectively 0 resistance between the Radiant and their Spren, they would have perfect access to their Spren's surges, without any weird latency or Stormlight inefficiency (note: i'm not claiming the hybrid would not leak Stormlight at all... But Brando did specify in a wob that "humans" leak too much, so maybe this is the caveat). Continuing with the Lightweaver example (totally not because of personal biases), this would likely have bigger ramifications with Soulcasting, given how the Cryptic does the translating between Cognitive aspects and the Radiant. Perhaps with this final step, the Radiant can just comprehend and speak to the beads in Shadesmar directly. Would certainly expedite the process, if nothing else. With Lightweaving, one downside I can see is that without the Spren being separate, you couldn't do the thing Shallan does and stick an illusion of Veil to Pattern for him to walk away with and misdirect people. However, I can see one way to circumvent this. If Plate really is lesser spren, then perhaps Lightweavers can stick Illusions to those as well (which for one just sounds amazing, a swarm of illusions that the Lightweaver uses as misdirection, forgoing the defensive capabilities of Plate).

Another effect this may have is on aging, or lack thereof. I wonder if a Spren is enough to slow the aging of their hybridized Radiant waayyy down. Not to be ageless like the Heralds, but maybe... Maybe it could be with a tweak from a Bondsmith, Stormfather permitting. That's a mini-theory for another time, though.

One last piece of meta-evidence is that SA is meant to be sort of like an anime, and this is similar to one of those somewhat prevalent (in my experience) anime tropes.

[GudThymes he/him]

I love your theorycrafting, this was a delight to read. 

8 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Will the 5th ideal cause the Radiant and Spren's spiritwebs to be so thoroughly connected that the two become indistinguishable in the SR, thus causing them to become Cognitively and Physically the same being?

I don't know how my argument changes this conclusion but I wanted to discuss a couple things and how it could provide insight into this.

1) The Spren bond and the fifth ideal

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Play/P

yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

We know they are merging into one Identity with separate minds. I think this gives credence both for and against your argument, but that's likely debatable.

2) The Recreance:

With the Recreance we see Radiants who have sworn atleast 4 ideals (shardplate) and likely all 5 (given that this was commonplace enough and all the Radiants save Skybreakers took part). Now, with that said, when the radiants gave up their shards they walked away. This implies the breaking of the Nahel bond didn't kill the mortal, but we know it killed the spren. Now, if the spren and the mortal become the same being in the Cognitive and Physical I would assume that this would be impossible. Nowhere else in the Cosmere is a person able to just kill themselves by making a decision (to break the bond).

 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

4 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I love your theorycrafting, this was a delight to read. 

Well then I did my job right.

4 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I don't know how my argument changes this conclusion but I wanted to discuss a couple things and how it could provide insight into this.

1) The Spren bond and the fifth ideal

We know they are merging into one Identity with separate minds. I think this gives credence both for and against your argument, but that's likely debatable.

Well then maybe they don't merge Cognitively (in terms of consciousness). Think Shallan/Veil/Radiant, but actually a separate entity inside there. Or like a non-destructive Fused, somehow. Maybe the gradual nature of the Nahel Bond permits that.

4 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

2) The Recreance:

With the Recreance we see Radiants who have sworn atleast 4 ideals (shardplate) and likely all 5 (given that this was commonplace enough and all the Radiants save Skybreakers took part). Now, with that said, when the radiants gave up their shards they walked away. This implies the breaking of the Nahel bond didn't kill the mortal, but we know it killed the spren. Now, if the spren and the mortal become the same being in the Cognitive and Physical I would assume that this would be impossible. Nowhere else in the Cosmere is a person able to just kill themselves by making a decision (to break the bond).

Ahhh, yeah, the Recreance... That's probably the biggest piece of evidence against this. But there are ways of explaining it. I'm just not well-informed enough to think of any on the spot. Maybe something like, the few 5th ideal Radiants that existed were actually willing to die for the sake of protecting the rest of Roshar? Eehhh, seems kind of like the cop-out answer. If they couldn't break the bond willingly, maybe they just asked a radiant to kill them with their blade and then go to the Recreance like we see in the visions. Would be super depressing and dark, but... I could see it happening, if they really thought that was the answer.

...now I'm almost half suspecting an ancient 5th ideal radiant will show up either in book 5 or in the second half of SA.

...or maybe one already has? If they're a Lightweaver... Nah. No, that's too aluminum foil hat even for me. We might see an old 5th ideal radiant show up later. Maybe.

[GudThymes he/him]

1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Maybe something like, the few 5th ideal Radiants that existed were actually willing to die for the sake of protecting the rest of Roshar? Eehhh, seems kind of like the cop-out answer.

I don't think this is a cop out or this is entirely implausible. Hundreds of individuals who dedicated their lives to serving humanity and honor knowingly murdered the Spren that they have spent years with and presumably loved as themselves (because it is themself?). They did this out of honor, they felt that what they were doing was immoral and wrong, the way they lived their lives was wrong. So they broke it, detached themselves from it. If it meant death for those at the 5th ideal then I don't doubt that they wouldn't have done it. 

Personally though, I just can't reconcile that it does mean death because that's not what we saw on screen. 

5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

now I'm almost half suspecting an ancient 5th ideal radiant will show up either in book 5 or in the second half of SA.

I mean, we have Nale right? He's 5th ideal Skybreaker.

I think you're right in most ways, I just don't think that merging as one individual means that the Spren can't manifest outside of the mortal.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

I don't think this is a cop out or this is entirely implausible. Hundreds of individuals who dedicated their lives to serving humanity and honor knowingly murdered the Spren that they have spent years with and presumably loved as themselves (because it is themself?). They did this out of honor, they felt that what they were doing was immoral and wrong, the way they lived their lives was wrong. So they broke it, detached themselves from it. If it meant death for those at the 5th ideal then I don't doubt that they wouldn't have done it. 

Personally though, I just can't reconcile that it does mean death because that's not what we saw on screen. 

That's fair. We'll just have to see if we get more info on it from good ol Stormfather or something.

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

I mean, we have Nale right? He's 5th ideal Skybreaker.

Okay yeah you got me there.

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

I think you're right in most ways, I just don't think that merging as one individual means that the Spren can't manifest outside of the mortal.

I guess it wouldn't be impossible to manifest a projection of the spren's normal appearance outside of them, especially for a Lightweaver

 

Also this makes me even more hyped for Venli, because if I AM onto something, she would be the Honor equivalent of a Fused or something. Which would be badass.

[GudThymes he/him]

48 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Also this makes me even more hyped for Venli, because if I AM onto something, she would be the Honor equivalent of a Fused or something. Which would be badass

I'm not sure I even have the mental capacity to understand what's happening with Venli. There are soooooo many unanswered questions in my book. (I should probably re-read her scenes with a close eye for more insight, still on WoR though). 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

I'm not sure I even have the mental capacity to understand what's happening with Venli. There are soooooo many unanswered questions in my book. (I should probably re-read her scenes with a close eye for more insight, still on WoR though). 

As of the end of Oathbringer, Venli has a voidspren of some form (making her a Regal) AND a Lightspren (Willshaper spren, Timbre) inside her Gemheart at the same time. She's a Radiant Singer Regal. If that makes sense.

[GudThymes he/him]

1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

As of the end of Oathbringer, Venli has a voidspren of some form (making her a Regal) AND a Lightspren (Willshaper spren, Timbre) inside her Gemheart at the same time. She's a Radiant Singer Regal. If that makes sense.

Ahhhh, thank you for reminding me. Timbre is in her Gemheart keeping the Voidspren at bay, yeah? Wow, that's intense and very unique. I wonder if she would be able to manifest Timbre as a shardblade (if she gets that far). 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, GudThymes said:

Ahhhh, thank you for reminding me. Timbre is in her Gemheart keeping the Voidspren at bay, yeah?

Yep, exactly. She now has control over whether to have voidbringer (red) eyes, or purple Willshaper eyes. ...Reminds me of Darth Revan and his purple/red lightsaber combo, now that I think about it.

Just now, GudThymes said:

Wow, that's intense and very unique. I wonder if she would be able to manifest Timbre as a shardblade (if she gets that far). 

Yeah, actually, that's a good point. If Timbre leaves her gemheart to become a Shardblade, does her Voidspren get set free... Maybe instead Timbre can bully the Voidspren into manifesting as a blade (probably at a higher ideal than normal for a Willshaper's blade).

[GudThymes he/him]

1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Yeah, actually, that's a good point. If Timbre leaves her gemheart to become a Shardblade, does her Voidspren get set free..

Set free or able to take full control? Also, since it isn't a Fused in her gemheart, I assume should is "free" to take another form right, so could she bond with another lesser spren to have a different form (say warform) and then also have Timbre? I know people are excited about seeing what would happen when one person held more than 2 surges. But imagine the combos of Listeners and the surges.

Sidenote: What shard enables the Singer bonding? I assume it was of Adonalsium originally, and voidspren is of Odium? But what about the other forms?

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, GudThymes said:

Set free or able to take full control?

Able to assert control like when she first became a Regal and was going around in Envoyform before Timbre entered her gemheart.

Just now, GudThymes said:

Also, since it isn't a Fused in her gemheart, I assume should is "free" to take another form right, so could she bond with another lesser spren to have a different form (say warform) and then also have Timbre? I know people are excited about seeing what would happen when one person held more than 2 surges. But imagine the combos of Listeners and the surges.

THIS. HOLY STORMS I FORGOT. Also, whatever form "Willshaperform" might be. Or any of the other radiant spren. Imagine a proper Lightweaver Singer. That would be AWESOME. (not biased )

Just now, GudThymes said:

Sidenote: What shard enables the Singer bonding? I assume it was of Adonalsium originally, and voidspren is of Odium? But what about the other forms?

Pretty sure it's cultivation. They "grow" into different forms based on what they need to do at the time. Plus they're like natural fabrials.

[Karger he/him]

I don't think we have seen Nale's spren but I do think we have seen indirect evidence of his separation.  Brandon recently said that it was completely OK with what Nale is doing implying that it does retain agency.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I don't think we have seen Nale's spren but I do think we have seen indirect evidence of his separation.  Brandon recently said that it was completely OK with what Nale is doing implying that it does retain agency.

Well if my revision earlier was accurate, it may still have separate consciousness to Nale, and still approve of what he's doing. The real giveaway would be taking a good look at him in the CR.