The Spren that Become Shardplate

[+Spicker]

After reading the Syl interlude and the discussions about it, I have been coming up with a tentative theory about how spren are involved in making Shardplate.

I propose that lesser spren are attracted to the bonds between the radiants and their spren, and when the fourth ideal is said they enter into the bond somehow (possibly through the sapient spren). This bond then changes the nature of the lesser spren.

Here are some of the things that has led me to this theory.

From the Syl interlude, we can read her thoughts on the Shardplate:
“It was pretty. Maybe Syl should have hated it, as she did Shardblades, but she didn’t. It was kind of a corpse—well, lots of corpses—but not as offensive. The difference, she supposed, was attitude. She could sense contentment, not pain, from the Plate.”

This quote supports the idea that lesser spren help form plate, but it also causes some issues. In Oathbringer, we see examples of some of these “cousin” spren being attracted to Kaladin and Dalinar at key points. The theory I see most often is that these spren become plate. However, some have rightfully questioned if a windspren (and what we know about its nature) would be content to stay trapped as a Shardplate. There is also the issue of not being able to see the spren after they have become plate.

There are two possible solutions I came up with that could account for this.

1. The spren that become plate are ones we have not seen yet. They are a unique spren that would be content as plate. They would also likely be the same spren that half-shards capture to create the ability to block a Shardblade. This idea could very well work, but it would not require the involvement of cousin spren (which some evidence supports).

2. The other idea is that the lesser spren (such as windspren), change in nature when they enter the bond. We can Syl and Pattern change overtime as their bond with a surgebinder deepens. Admittedly it is not exactly the same thing, seeing as they are not content to stay as blades. However, we see that Wyndle is willing to become a blade when needed, even if it goes against his nature to not want to kill. I think the bonding has the ability to change the spren. I believe this is part of the reason the Stormfather and Dalinar do not want to enhance or strengthen Syl’s bond in the same interlude.

Another thing that has bugged me about spren becoming plate is the idea that a windspren could block a Shardblade when we see Syl kill a spren in Oathbringer. True this could have just been because the spren was of Odium, but I get the impression that spren themselves are not completely able to block a blade. If something about the spren changes during the process, however, this could explain how it is able to do so. This is why I lean toward this explanation.

The idea that Spren change when they become plate could explain why we do not see them floating around in any examples of people that already have it. It could also explain how spren would be content to stay as plate.

I am not sure how well this theory will hold up, but I think it is a good starting point.

This still leaves me with questions about how the spren would be bonded. Is it with the surgebinder somehow, or would it be through the sapient spren? Syl mentioned having children, which makes me lean towards the idea that bond could possibly be hers.

Also, if they did agree to let Syl enhance her bond, is that something we have seen before? What exactly would happen?

And if cousin spren do change to form plate, then what the heck makes a half-shard? Is it transformed plate spren, or is it something else entirely?

I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.

[+Invocation]

I'm thinking two different kinds of spren go into Plate. The lesser spren of each Order is the majority of it, or at least the structure that the rest of it is based on, and making up the difference are the same kind of that the half-shard fabrials use to increase their solidity. It's probably the same spren that show up when Kaladin binds something (Connectionspren? Gravityspren? I don't remember which one they are), and they probably merge into one another, leading to new Platespren that are content as long as they're in their shape. 

[+Spicker]

I do like the idea of some type of spren merger to create a new spren. That would explain the difference between a half shard and shard plate. In fact, it gives new meaning to the term half-shard. The half shard traps the spren that gives things substance. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Spicker said:

Another thing that has bugged me about spren becoming plate is the idea that a windspren could block a Shardblade when we see Syl kill a spren in Oathbringer. True this could have just been because the spren was of Odium, but I get the impression that spren themselves are not completely able to block a blade. If something about the spren changes during the process, however, this could explain how it is able to do so. This is why I lean toward this explanation.

Enough hits and plate will be destroyed.  Spren also can't usually be killed very easily. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

1 hour ago, Spicker said:

From the Syl interlude, we can read her thoughts on the Shardplate:
“It was pretty. Maybe Syl should have hated it, as she did Shardblades, but she didn’t. It was kind of a corpse—well, lots of corpses—but not as offensive. The difference, she supposed, was attitude. She could sense contentment, not pain, from the Plate.”

This quote supports the idea that lesser spren help form plate, but it also causes some issues. In Oathbringer, we see examples of some of these “cousin” spren being attracted to Kaladin and Dalinar at key points. The theory I see most often is that these spren become plate. However, some have rightfully questioned if a windspren (and what we know about its nature) would be content to stay trapped as a Shardplate. There is also the issue of not being able to see the spren after they have become plate.

I think the operative difference is that Cord's shardplate is not living shardplate, it's part of the physical remains from the Knight's broken oath. Just like breaking oaths turns a Higher Spren into a Deadeye, and if done while the spren is maifest as a weapon in the physical realm the weapon will remain, something similar most likely occured with summoned plate when the Radiants broke their oaths.

Living plate is most likely as different from dead plate as a bonded sapient Radiant spren is to a deadeye shardblade. 

The individual cousin spren that make up the plate are most likely autonomous until through their bond they are summoned to become plate. They might have their freedom of movement restricted to within a certain radius of their knight like Syl does, but they should still be free until summoned. 

Quote

She needed to stay within a few miles of Kaladin, or her Connection to the Physical Realm would start to fade, and her mind would weaken.

The cousin spren are also less sapient than Radiant spren, so the proximity to the Radiant might not even be an issue.

 

1 hour ago, Spicker said:

There are two possible solutions I came up with that could account for this.

1. The spren that become plate are ones we have not seen yet. They are a unique spren that would be content as plate. They would also likely be the same spren that half-shards capture to create the ability to block a Shardblade. This idea could very well work, but it would not require the involvement of cousin spren (which some evidence supports).

2. The other idea is that the lesser spren (such as windspren), change in nature when they enter the bond. We can Syl and Pattern change overtime as their bond with a surgebinder deepens. Admittedly it is not exactly the same thing, seeing as they are not content to stay as blades. However, we see that Wyndle is willing to become a blade when needed, even if it goes against his nature to not want to kill. I think the bonding has the ability to change the spren. I believe this is part of the reason the Stormfather and Dalinar do not want to enhance or strengthen Syl’s bond in the same interlude.

There could be a third explanation for this, namely that like outlined above the constituent lesser spren maintain their autonomy and independent lives and, though bonded, are only summoned when the knight manifests their shardplate. Just like the delay of 10 heartbeats to summon a dead blade, there could be a gap between the desire to summon the plate and the manifestation of the plate due to the drawing together of the bonded lesser spren from wherever they happen to be (Shadesmar, frolicking at the crest of a highstorm, etc.)

1 hour ago, Spicker said:

Another thing that has bugged me about spren becoming plate is the idea that a windspren could block a Shardblade when we see Syl kill a spren in Oathbringer. True this could have just been because the spren was of Odium, but I get the impression that spren themselves are not completely able to block a blade. If something about the spren changes during the process, however, this could explain how it is able to do so. This is why I lean toward this explanation.

This doesn't bother me. A living Radiant spren in the form of a shardweapon can easily block another shardweapon. Spren are sapient pieces of investiture, the fact that a highly concentrated piece of investiture can destroy a smaller and weaker piece (Syl killing the odium spren) makes sense. The bond supplied by the Radiant and their spren to the lesser spren most likely just allows the cousin spren to fuse together into a larger conglomerate of investiture. Investiture resists investiture, but it's a matter of concetration too. I don't think anyone should try and block Nightblood using any type of shardweapon or plate.

 

1 hour ago, Spicker said:

And if cousin spren do change to form plate, then what the heck makes a half-shard? Is it transformed plate spren, or is it something else entirely?

This could be something as simple as trapping numerous spren in the half shard, forming a concentration of investiture great enough to withstand the investiture of a shardblade. I do wonder if a half shard would be able to holdout against a living shardblade wielded by a 4th ideal radiant.

[+Spicker]

38 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Living plate is most likely as different from dead plate as a bonded sapient Radiant spren is to a deadeye shardblade. 

I totally agree with this. I am not saying that living plate is like the dead plate. I am just trying to account for the fact that the spren in dead plate have a very different attitude about their states than the dead blades. This could very well be that plate spren are not as sapient, but it feels like some type of change must occur to make it so that all the different types of lesser spren would be content as a dead plate. It is harder to imagine that windspren would be content to be trapped as a dead plate. I'm not saying its not possible, but there is a concern there.

38 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

There could be a third explanation for this, namely that like outlined above the constituent lesser spren maintain their autonomy and independent lives and, though bonded, are only summoned when the knight manifests their shardplate. Just like the delay of 10 heartbeats to summon a dead blade, there could be a gap between the desire to summon the plate and the manifestation of the plate due to the drawing together of the bonded lesser spren from wherever they happen to be (Shadesmar, frolicking at the crest of a highstorm, etc.)

This could very well be how it works. Wherever you usually find the spren that make plate, they are likely called in a similar fashion as the shard blade. If this is the case, then I wonder why they havent figured out a way to summon and dismiss the plate as they do with the blade. Is it because the bond for plate works through the now-dead spren? 
Oh, another question that came to me is if Adolin finds a way to revive Maya, will he then be able to summon the plate? will they also be revived?

38 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

A living Radiant spren in the form of a shardweapon can easily block another shardweapon. Spren are sapient pieces of investiture, the fact that a highly concentrated piece of investiture can destroy a smaller and weaker piece (Syl killing the odium spren) makes sense. The bond supplied by the Radiant and their spren to the lesser spren most likely just allows the cousin spren to fuse together into a larger conglomerate of investiture. Investiture resists investiture, but it's a matter of concetration too.

This is very true, too. I guess I view the ability for spren to become a blade as a change that results from the bond. We see the spren change as the bond deepens, so in my mind I see something similar happening with the lesser spren, but maybe not to the same extant. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Spicker

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

37 minutes ago, Spicker said:

I totally agree with this. I am not saying that living plate is like the dead plate. I am just trying to account for the fact that the spren in dead plate have a very different attitude about their states than the dead blades. This could very well be that plate spren are not as sapient, but it feels like some type of change must occur to make it so that all the different types of lesser spren would be content as a dead plate. It is harder to imagine that windspren would be content to be trapped as a dead plate. I'm not saying its not possible, but there is a concern there.

It could be something as simple as they are fulfilling a fundamentally different role than deadeye spren. Shardplate exists to protect, shardblades exist to kill. The difference in sapience lost, and the difference in their roles I think goes a long ways towards explaining the difference between how a deadeye would view its lot in life and how a bound cousin spren would view its lot in life. The screaming that a Radiant percieves through their bond when they touch a dead shardblade seems to me to be a symptom of what the broken radiant spren has lost (most of their mind) and what they are forced to do (kill).

 

37 minutes ago, Spicker said:

This could very well be how it works. Wherever you usually find the spren that make plate, they are likely called in a similar fashion as the shard blade. If this is the case, then I wonder why they havent figured out a way to summon and dismiss the plate as they do with the blade. Is it because the bond for plate works through the now-dead spren? 

This is probably just a function of the deadeye being a singular entity and shardplate being a composite entity. Dead shardblades can be bonded using investiture from infused gems. This creates a connection between the deadeye spren and the shardblade wielder, allowing the deadeye to return to the Cognitive Realm and to be summoned to the Physical Realm. This is a subset of the Nahel bond. Shardplate can be used by anyone, and further to be used it requires investiture from infused gems, and if damaged requires even more investiture from infused gems. This implies that living plate requires extra ivestiture, most likey supplied by the knight/radiant bond. With the bond severed between the knight, the radiant spren, and the conglomeration of spren that make up the plate, the plate just becomes a physical object. This might be something that they could solve in time, but it would be orders of magnitude more difficult it seems to me to establish hundreds of connections between a person and the composite spren of the shardplate.

I think an appropriate (but entirely speculative) analogy would be if you view the nahel bond as a rope that stretches between the Radiant and their bonded spren, the connections to the cousin spren that form the plate would be like hundreds of threads that wind around the core rope and extend out to each individual cousin spren, like strings attached to balloons. Those strings can be used to pull the individual spren into the formation of plate, and based on the needs of deadplate, they probably serve as conduits for investiture to maintain the formation. But if the rope between Radiant and spren is severed, and the shardplate wasn't made maifest, they probably just scatter and dissipate, like balloons in the wind. But if they were manifest as plate when the bond was severed they maintain the shape of the formation, and have an inherent desire to keep maintaining that formation. Otherwise shardplate regrowth would be impossible. This sense of purpose, of fusing to become something greater than their individual selves might explain the contentment that Syl senses from the deadplate.

58 minutes ago, Spicker said:

Oh, another question that came to me is if Adolin finds a way to revive Maya, will he then be able to summon the plate? will they also be revived?

 

58 minutes ago, Spicker said:

We see the spren change as the bond deepens, so in my mind I see something similar happening with the lesser spren, but maybe not to the same extant.

Interesting points, it seems like Radiant spren receive an increased awareness from the Nahel bond, it stands to reason that the cousin spren might likewise receive a compensating increase in awareness too. And maybe, to use the balloon analogy again, the cousin spren might still have strings with an affinity for a particular bond...That would be pretty sweet if Adolin resuscitates zombified life spren in addition to bringing Maya back.

[+Spicker]

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

This sense of purpose, of fusing to become something greater than their individual selves might explain the contentment that Syl senses from the deadplate.

I guess this is kind of the point I’m trying to make. The act of becoming plate is causing their sense of purpose and abilities to change.

I am very curious to see how the dead plate spren look in the cognitive realm. 

Also, this discussion had me thinking about nightblood and azures sword. They are attempts to replicate Shardblades. It would be cool to see if someone tried to awaken armor to replicate Shardplate. 
Also, on a bit of a tangent, would silver armor protect you from nightblood?

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

1 hour ago, Spicker said:

I am very curious to see how the dead plate spren look in the cognitive realm. 

Me too. Maybe they can't transition to the CR because for people at least to transition they are converted into ivestiture and then into Cognitive matter (which I think is just investiture with a different type of spin). But investiture resists investiture, so there might be a fundamental mechanic that makes this impossible. Spren are made of cognitive matter, and they are drawn to certain phenomena, but only part of their cognitive form manifests in the Physical Realm. Maybe it could be something similar but in reverse with spren bound in a physical form going into the cognitive if it's possible at all. If they can transition to shadesmar, then Syl’s description of them as corpses is pretty suggestive. Maybe the shardplate would look like a lumbering, brainless Frankenstein type monster made up of corpses of spren smooshed together.

I hope someone tries to take a fabrial into Shadesmar in RoW, if succesfull that would be very interesting to see how that works out.

I always wondered during the journey through Shadesmar if it would have been possible for Adolin to summon Maya as a shardblade, it's been awhile since I've read OB, but doesn't Kaladin fight the fused in Shadesmar without using Syl as a shardweapon?

Supporting WOBs spoilered below:

Spoiler

Conversion to investiture for transition to cr

Quote

Bromo_Sapien

When somebody travels into the Cognitive Realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where your body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bromo_Sapien

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is weird.

Bromo_Sapien

As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, right. Or when Shallan is Soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Bromo_Sapien

And when they leave the Cognitive Realm their Physical self just leaves the Cognitive Realm the same...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mhm, yep.

Bromo_Sapien

Perfect.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically you’re transferring into Investiture and popping out of Investiture, so...

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

Investiture "spin" WOB (Spoilered due to length, emphasis added)

Spoiler

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

WOB about investiture resisting investiture and investiture Interference (Spoilered due to length, emphasis added)

Spoiler

Argent

We know that you can't Lash people in Shardplate, but can you Lash the person inside the Plate? If they had their helm off, for example. At that point Plate should be just dead weight, right? 

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bit of an interference envelope. Wearing plate, the person has this big ball of investiture around them, and so pushing any through it--even by touching a person without a helm--is going to be tough. Easier than with the helm on though, I suppose.

Investiture acts (roughly) like a saturated solution in these cases. Sticking more power into something like a Feruchemical storage or a hyper-invested object like Plate is increasingly hard. The other part is that Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture, unless there's a familiar resonance. (This is part of what philosophers call Identity.) Slapping your hand through a sand master's stream of sand will cause interference, and make them start to drop. It's not that the sand is supporting them, it's that the investiture holding them up gets scrambled for a moment because of your own investiture.

Investiture pushed toward someone inside a hyper-invested (supersaturated) system like a person in Shardplate is going to get hard push-back.

This is similar to the reason that it's harder to Push on invested coins. Depends on how invested they are, in that case. It's generally not as hard as doing something like Lashing a person in plate. (This is more about the interference than the saturation of investiture.) But the two principles are what I use to guide the physics in these areas.

quietandproud

Can we take that as a hint that the Investiture in the Plates and the Investiture that the Surge of [Adhesion] uses come from different Shards? Or do they interfere because they "belong" to different spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I should have realized this one would bring out the follow up questions. Let's leave it at what I posted for now. This is a deep, deep rabbit hole, and I do need to try to get some more writing done tonight. So...RAFO. (Sorry.)

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Nov. 2, 2016)

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[+Spicker]

6 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I always wondered during the journey through Shadesmar if it would have been possible for Adolin to summon Maya as a shardblade, it's been awhile since I've read OB, but doesn't Kaladin fight the fused in Shadesmar without using Syl as a shardweapon?

Do you mean if he would have pushed through her screaming? Because Adolin does try to summon it, but I believe she just starts screaming so he stops. 
 

Kaladin and Shallan do not use their blades. IIRC, they don’t even try to summon them, but I remember having the impression that they wouldn’t have been able to. There might even be a WoB about this but I can’t quite recall it. 

[Pathfinder]

On 7/9/2020 at 6:28 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Me too. Maybe they can't transition to the CR because for people at least to transition they are converted into ivestiture and then into Cognitive matter (which I think is just investiture with a different type of spin). But investiture resists investiture, so there might be a fundamental mechanic that makes this impossible. Spren are made of cognitive matter, and they are drawn to certain phenomena, but only part of their cognitive form manifests in the Physical Realm. Maybe it could be something similar but in reverse with spren bound in a physical form going into the cognitive if it's possible at all. If they can transition to shadesmar, then Syl’s description of them as corpses is pretty suggestive. Maybe the shardplate would look like a lumbering, brainless Frankenstein type monster made up of corpses of spren smooshed together.

I hope someone tries to take a fabrial into Shadesmar in RoW, if succesfull that would be very interesting to see how that works out.

I always wondered during the journey through Shadesmar if it would have been possible for Adolin to summon Maya as a shardblade, it's been awhile since I've read OB, but doesn't Kaladin fight the fused in Shadesmar without using Syl as a shardweapon?

Supporting WOBs spoilered below:

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Conversion to investiture for transition to cr

Investiture "spin" WOB (Spoilered due to length, emphasis added)

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ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

WOB about investiture resisting investiture and investiture Interference (Spoilered due to length, emphasis added)

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Argent

We know that you can't Lash people in Shardplate, but can you Lash the person inside the Plate? If they had their helm off, for example. At that point Plate should be just dead weight, right? 

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bit of an interference envelope. Wearing plate, the person has this big ball of investiture around them, and so pushing any through it--even by touching a person without a helm--is going to be tough. Easier than with the helm on though, I suppose.

Investiture acts (roughly) like a saturated solution in these cases. Sticking more power into something like a Feruchemical storage or a hyper-invested object like Plate is increasingly hard. The other part is that Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture, unless there's a familiar resonance. (This is part of what philosophers call Identity.) Slapping your hand through a sand master's stream of sand will cause interference, and make them start to drop. It's not that the sand is supporting them, it's that the investiture holding them up gets scrambled for a moment because of your own investiture.

Investiture pushed toward someone inside a hyper-invested (supersaturated) system like a person in Shardplate is going to get hard push-back.

This is similar to the reason that it's harder to Push on invested coins. Depends on how invested they are, in that case. It's generally not as hard as doing something like Lashing a person in plate. (This is more about the interference than the saturation of investiture.) But the two principles are what I use to guide the physics in these areas.

quietandproud

Can we take that as a hint that the Investiture in the Plates and the Investiture that the Surge of [Adhesion] uses come from different Shards? Or do they interfere because they "belong" to different spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I should have realized this one would bring out the follow up questions. Let's leave it at what I posted for now. This is a deep, deep rabbit hole, and I do need to try to get some more writing done tonight. So...RAFO. (Sorry.)

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Nov. 2, 2016)

 

 

Personally i think you are misunderstanding the first WoB you posted to a slight degree. I took it to mean there are two ways to access the cognitive realm:

 

1. Transformation

2. Transportation 

 

For transformation (soulcasting), you create an "investiture bubble" of "you" that manifests in the cognitive realm as a sort of astral projection. Your physical body still very much exists in the physical realm and is very much vulnerable to attack. 

 

For transportation, you transfer completely. Physical body and all. You leave the physical realm. No investiture simulacrum of you required. You are fully there.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

For transportation, you transfer completely. Physical body and all. You leave the physical realm. No investiture simulacrum of you required. You are fully there.

I was really only talking about this case, the transition of your physical manifestation to the CR. At the end of the first WOB Brandon says

Quote

But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

(Intervening bits removed)

Basically you’re transferring into Investiture and popping out of Investiture, so...

This doesn't involve any simulacrum being created, everything in the cosmere is ultimately composed of investiture, just in different states. But those different states are important. To transition into the CR, whether through a perpendicularity or using the surge of teleportation, there is a necessary conversion to investiture to allow for the realmatic transition. We know that physical objects from the Physical Realm can transition and persist in the CR (Nazh's knife, the chain in celebrant, Riino's canned tuna, etc) but where the unexplored weirdness comes in is in the case of objects that seem like physical objects that are actually made of spren (dead shardblades, dead plate, fabrials holding living spren, Gavilar's black spheres, etc). 

What would happen if Navani went physically into the CR with one of Gavilar's black spheres in her hand, wearing dead shardplate, holding Oathbringer, and further had her panrial strapped on?

Would those objects resist the transformation into the state of investiture that is necessary to physically transition (because investiture resists investiture)?

How I think of this is that this type of transition, with all of these heavily invested items, would probably only be possible at a shard's perpendicularity. The surge of teleportation (according to the WOB spoilered below) is really the creation of a miniature perpendicularity, implying that it's a less powerful force for transitioning. The greater the Resistance, the greater the force needs to be to overcome that resistance.

I would like to see Navani decked out as above and jump into Cultivation's perpendicularity. Would she come out in the CR with a dead eye spren in her hand? Would the black sphere shatter and release the odious spren? Would she be trapped under a pile of zombie cousin spren corpses? Would her fabrial break, letting out the pain spren trapped inside?

Miniature Perpendicularity WOB (the relevant bits are down near the bottom)

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And can we know how?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?

Questioner

Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in--

Questioner

Yeah, yeah I know these.

Brandon Sanderson

You know which one I'm referencing?

Questioner

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

That you didn't see a Pool from?

Questioner

Oh wait--

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

Argent

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves.

Questioner

Woah...so...Highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

*makes non-committal noises*

Questioner 2

Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner 2

So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Typos, always typos

[dgreene196]

On 7/9/2020 at 6:28 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I always wondered during the journey through Shadesmar if it would have been possible for Adolin to summon Maya as a shardblade, it's been awhile since I've read OB, but doesn't Kaladin fight the fused in Shadesmar without using Syl as a shardweapon?

Right after they arrive in Shadesmar (Oathbringer, Chapter 89), Adolin first tries to summon Maya - she makes a howling, screeching sound, and, and Pattern tells Adolin Maya is dead and summoning her in Shadesmar isn't possible.

While Kaladin can use his Surges in Shadesmar, he doesn't have access to Syl as a blade - without looking it up, I believe he uses a tool he finds as a weapon at first, and eventually steals one of the weapons of the Fused.  Before running out of Stormlight.