At which point becomes mass awareness of and mass access to the Cognitive Realm inevitable?

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also describes alchemists I am afraid. This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy#Medieval_Europe goes into more detail but alchemists got government funding and were involved in real sometimes useful sometimes useless projects.  Entrepreneurial opportunities were common for the alchemists of Renaissance Europe. Alchemists were contracted by the elite for practical purposes related to mining, medical services, and the production of chemicals, medicines, metals, and gemstones but also for angel summoning, divination, and as  astrology.  

Then I guess it is fortunate that we see them not working on angel summoning, divination, and astrology. Further then I guess it is fortunate that they have spren, heralds, and radiants to assist in what would work and what wouldn't.

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Can you tell me how to make a ford assembly line?  I am not talking generalities either I mean could you set one up?  Weather or not knowlege exists is often a different question from weather or not that knowledge has people that can actually use it.  This is why educating your population is important for industrialization.  If the necessary knowledge is only usable by a few elites it can not be used.

Easily. I want to make a paper air plane. I take 5 people. I teach each person how to fold one part of the plane. I then place a stack of papers next to the first person. Tell them to begin. There is your assembly line. 

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

If their horses are that good then they are not horses.  Also horses are difficult to care for, have to be exercised, fed and die of old age.

So if a horse is good at its job it ceases to be a horse? What is it called then? A dog is a dog is a dog regardless if it is good at herding sheep, pulling a sled, flushing out burrows of badgers, or hunting foxes. 

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

If they are that good then I seriously doubt it.

What are they called then?

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes except your scenario does not hold up to present data.  Maybe future data will vindicate you but that does not make you correct currently.

But you just said yes that we don't have data. So how do you know data we don't have does not hold up to the scenario I present? I am really confused. 

Isn't that what I have said about 4 times now? The fourth book's back mentions a technological revolution. You believe it will manifest one way. I believe it will another. RAFO?

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

It was an exaggerated analogy of what could happen but what I will not think about right now.

Ok?

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Then I guess it is fortunate that we see them not working on angel summoning, divination, and astrology. Further then I guess it is fortunate that they have spren, heralds, and radiants to assist in what would work and what wouldn't.

We don't know what most of them are doing.  The people we know are probably not representative and even with solid verifiable science in existence alchemy still hung around for a good century.  We have no evidence that the Heralds know much about fabrials.  Navani even notes that Urithiru fabrails were below her expectations.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Easily. I want to make a paper air plane. I take 5 people. I teach each person how to fold one part of the plane. I then place a stack of papers next to the first person. Tell them to begin. There is your assembly line. 

Can you use this method to make a paper airplane significantly faster or more efficiently then you by yourself can do by hand?

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So if a horse is good at its job it ceases to be a horse? What is it called then? A dog is a dog is a dog regardless if it is good at herding sheep, pulling a sled, flushing out burrows of badgers, or hunting foxes. 

To make the horse good enough that it beets out the car everywhere on the planet as the transportation method of choice yes.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

What are they called then?

You could call them horses but it would not be accurate.  Neo-horses would be the typical SF convention.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But you just said yes that we don't have data. So how do you know data we don't have does not hold up to the scenario I present? I am really confused. 

There could be some really weird stuff happening on Roshar that we don't know about that I have not taken into consideration however from what we know of the planet now they lack elements associated with industrialization.  You have made several points to the contrary but I am afraid the evidence that you offer is not backed by enough empirical proof for me to find it compelling.  Basically while you may find it self consistent I do feel your logic to be penetrating. 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Isn't that what I have said about 4 times now? The fourth book's back mentions a technological revolution

Noticeably not an industrial one. 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok?

You dislike the method of argument?

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

We don't know what most of them are doing.  The people we know are probably not representative and even with solid verifiable science in existence alchemy still hung around for a good century.  We have no evidence that the Heralds know much about fabrials.  Navani even notes that Urithiru fabrails were below her expectations.

But we do know what they are doing. We seen Navani's team. We see Navani's drawings. There are drawings of mood fabrials, of pain rials (of which we see employed shortly after in the novel), we see flying ships. Navani mentions another nation coming up with shard shields. Taravangian mentions using spren that bind things in its construction. He references radiant surges. 

As to the heralds, we know they are specialists in their fields, and they help advance technology when they return. Kalak (builder). Battar (scholar/scientist), Pailah (doctor). These aren't just people off the street. The only one that was, was Taln. 

Quote

Can you use this method to make a paper airplane significantly faster or more efficiently then you by yourself can do by hand?

Um yes. That is the whole purpose of setting up the process that way. The first person does the first fold. i do the first fold. The second person does the second fold, while the first person is doing the first fold again, and I do the second fold. The third person does the the third fold, while the second person does the next second fold, while the first person does another first fold, while I do the third fold. The fourth person does the fourth fold, while the third person does the next third fold, while the second person does the next second fold, while the first person does the next first fold, while I do the fourth fold. The fifth person does the last fold finishing the plane, while the fourth person does the next fourth fold, while the third person does the next third fold, while the second person does the next second fold, while the first person does the next first fold, while I do the last fold finishing my plane. The fifth person does the next last fold finishing the second plane, the fourth does the next fourth fold, the third does the next third fold, the second does the next second fold, the first does the next first fold, and I do my first fold on a new plane. When I do my second fold, another plane is done, when I do my third fold, another plane is done, when I do my fourth fold, another plane is done, and when I do my fifth and final fold, another plane is done. The assembly line has made 6 airplanes in the time it took me to make 2. The assembly line has tripled production. In order for the old system to match, I would have to hire, and train 6 people and teach them how to fold a plane from beginning to end. I need to make sure they maintain quality every step of the way individually. With the assembly line, I just have to train a person to do one fold, and do that one fold well. With the assembly line I can standardize quality. While with the old system, some planes will come out better, while others may come out worse. 

Quote

To make the horse good enough that it beets out the car everywhere on the planet as the transportation method of choice yes.

I already gave two examples where a car would not work, and a horse would be better. If those two examples were prevalent across the planet, which in this scenario it is, then horses would be preferable to vehicles. There by focusing on making the horses genetically better, or augmented via cybernetics, makes more sense. 

Quote

You could call them horses but it would not be accurate.  Neo-horses would be the typical SF convention.

But its still a horse. You still have horse in the name. 

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There could be some really weird stuff happening on Roshar that we don't know about that I have not taken into consideration however from what we know of the planet now they lack elements associated with industrialization.  You have made several points to the contrary but I am afraid the evidence that you offer is not backed by enough empirical proof for me to find it compelling.  Basically while you may find it self consistent I do feel your logic to be penetrating. 

So if I understand you correctly, you acknowledge there is not enough information to come to any conclusions, but still feel a conclusion can be made? 

We disagree on the process of industrialization. 

Why do you think I am trying to show empirical proof to compel you to change your mind? What I have read leads me to my own conclusions. You disagree which is your right. As I have said multiple times now, I guess since we both agree Rhythm of War is concerning technological advancement, our answers will be there, so RAFO?

Quote

Noticeably not an industrial one. 

I disagree. The only "noticable" thing is that there is technological advances. It could go as you say, or as I say. Spoiler for the back just in case, even though it is on Amazon

 

Spoiler

 

After forming a coalition of human resistance against the enemy invasion, Dalinar Kholin and his Knights Radiant have spent a year fighting a protracted, brutal war. Neither side has gained an advantage. Now, as new technological discoveries begin to change the face of the war, the enemy prepares a bold and dangerous operation. 

The arms race that follows will challenge the very core of the Radiant ideals, and potentially reveal the secrets of the ancient tower that was once the heart of their strength.

 

 

 

Quote

You dislike the method of argument?

Huh? You are really losing me here. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But we do know what they are doing. We seen Navani's team. We see Navani's drawings. There are drawings of mood fabrials, of pain rials (of which we see employed shortly after in the novel), we see flying ships. Navani mentions another nation coming up with shard shields. Taravangian mentions using spren that bind things in its construction. He references radiant surges. 

Most of them.  I highly doubt Navani's team is representative and that was a smarter day Taravangian. 

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Um yes. That is the whole purpose of setting up the process that way.

I think if you try and time it with five friends you will notice some problems with communication and timing.  Also a paper airplane is considerably simpler then even a basic assembly line for lumber manufacturing.

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I already gave two examples where a car would not work, and a horse would be better.

They are not believable.  Cars require building roads anyway.

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But its still a horse. You still have horse in the name. 

Referncing that the concept of the animal is horse derived.  Would you call say superman human?  He still has human in the name looks like a human and is capable of the same things as all humans.  However if I said that an entire economy was supported by the manual laborers of kyptonians but called them humans you might take issue with that statement.

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So if I understand you correctly, you acknowledge there is not enough information to come to any conclusions, but still feel a conclusion can be made? 

Not at all.  I use the scientific method.  If new relevant evidence shows up I must be prepared to alter my current conclusions. 

33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why do you think I am trying to show empirical proof to compel you to change your mind?

Because that is generally excepted as a reasonable method of arguing a point?  I am not going to be convinced by something that just "makes sense" to you that is not backed up by evidence that I can independently verify is even worth considering.

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Most of them.  I highly doubt Navani's team is representative and that was a smarter day Taravangian. 

I think if you try and time it with five friends you will notice some problems with communication and timing.  Also a paper airplane is considerably simpler then even a basic assembly line for lumber manufacturing.

They are not believable.  Cars require building roads anyway.

Referncing that the concept of the animal is horse derived.  Would you call say superman human?  He still has human in the name looks like a human and is capable of the same things as all humans.  However if I said that an entire economy was supported by the manual laborers of kyptonians but called them humans you might take issue with that statement.

Not at all.  I use the scientific method.  If new relevant evidence shows up I must be prepared to alter my current conclusions. 

Because that is generally excepted as a reasonable method of arguing a point?  I am not going to be convinced by something that just "makes sense" to you that is not backed up by evidence that I can independently verify is even worth considering.

I could reply to all your points, and part of me wants to, but at the end of the day Roshar is pre-industrial, undergoing an industrial revolution as per the author. So that is where my chips lie. You are certainly entitled to interpret these WoB however you wish, and I wish you luck with your theory, but I think what I have read, and WoB (one from 2014, and another from 2017) support it, that Roshar is under going an industrial revolution. Guess we will just have to RAFO in the end. 

 

the_archduke (paraphrased)

Is chouta based on food from Korea?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*long explanation about industrializing societies developing portable food* and no, it is Mexican/Italian, think deep fried meatballs in a sopaipilla.

Words of Radiance Scottsdale signing (March 14, 2014)

 

 

[unknown]

Rereading Words of Radiance... Are the Herdazians a caricature of Mexicans? Is that ok?

Brandon Sanderson

Parts of their culture are inspired by Mexican culture in the same way the Alethi are inspired by Mongolians, Lift's origins are indigenous Bolivians, and the Final Empire (Central Dominance) was 1800's France. Human beings need a launching-off point for creativity to work.

I don't consider them a caricature. Lopen is extreme to say the least, but I made sure to include Palona, Huio, and others as a balancing factor. That said, I don't get to decide if what I did works--I get to try, and explain my motivations, but the decision on whether or not I succeed is not in my hands. Many a writer has had the best intentions, but has failed anyway.

I think it's important to diversify my inspirations, and push myself. If I were going to say the true inspirations for Herdazians, it would be a Mexico mashup with Korea (where I lived for several years.) The smaller country that has long been overshadowed by a dominant neighbor is a very common thing in our world, and it really felt like Alethkar would have a similar effect on kingdoms around it.

I will take a moment to note that chouta wasn't inspired by burritos, really, but more the "street food" explosion that accompanied the industrial revolution. I took what they had in the society (flatbread and Soulcast meat) and tried to build something that would replicate the things I've seen and read about in our world during that era, because it fascinates me.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 18, 2017)

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

that Roshar is under going an industrial revolution. Guess we will just have to RAFO in the end. 

That WoB just says industrializing.  That could easily refer to Proto-industrialization which is the regional development, alongside commercial agriculture, of rural handicraft production for external markets.^[1] The term was introduced in the early 1970s by economic historians who argued that such developments in parts of Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries...

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I will take a moment to note that chouta wasn't inspired by burritos, really, but more the "street food" explosion that accompanied the industrial revolution.

That does not really mean anything.  These WoBs are counter examples.

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Leinton

So a friend and I who share a passion for sword fighting have been trying to find the real world correlates for the stances that Sharbearers use. So far we've made connections between Windstance and Haidong Gumdo, and Smokestance and the late Medieval/early Renaissance fencing. I was wondering if you could give us more information or at least hints on the other real world correlates?

Brandon Sanderson

I developed these with Ben McSweeney's help, and we plan to include representations of all the stances eventually. However, a few are NOT based on real-world equivalents, because of the size of Shardblades. Look at how various very-large weapons like zweihanders or Zanbat's were used.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

Quote

Patrick

Regarding The Way of Kings, given the fact that the synopsis doesn't shed much light on what the tale is about, what can you tell us about the book and the rest of the Stormlight Archive sequence? You know, a little something to whet your fans' appetite!

Brandon Sanderson

I'm actually preparing a blog post on this. I've had a very tough time describing The Way of Kings. I've been working on this book for many, many years. Parts of it I can trace back 15, 17 years ago to my very early days as an aspiring writer in my teens. Beyond that, I'm planning a very large story that spans many books. So what this book is and means to me is a lot more extensive than with other books I've worked on.

Because of that it's really defied my ability to describe it. What can they expect? Well, it's about the length of Lord of Chaos. It will be much more epic and larger in scope than anything I have published so far on my own. There's a whole lot more worldbuilding to it—I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 words of worldbuilding notes, scattered across several documents, that I'm now coalescing into a wiki.

I don't know that this is new information, but the story of the Stormlight Archive revolves around ten orders of knights, each of whom had their own magics and abilities, who fell thousands of years ago for reasons no one understands. Some say they betrayed mankind, others say they were destroyed, others say they were charlatans all along.

The Stormlight Archive deals with the history of these knights, discovering what happened to them. It also deals, perhaps, with their redemption. Another big theme has to do with the onset of a magical industrial revolution, so to speak. Think of this as Renaissance-era technology where people are discovering how to harness magic and use it in practical ways. I've always wanted to do a story about the dawning of something like the Age of Legends in the Wheel of Time books.

Pat's Fantasy Hotlist Interview (May 25, 2010)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Way of Kings: Is set on a strangely awesome world. Apparently, a super large storm (like hurricane size) passes across the Earth every few days. This happens in a very predictable cycle. Because of this, there is no soil anywhere, everything is stone. The plants and animals have adapted to this environment, so they are also pretty strange. The plants, for instance will be much like a coral reef. They have shells, or can withdraw into the ground, and do so when the storm comes. They also will do the same thing if you try to step on them and such. So like, as you're walking, the grass around you shrinks into the ground, and pokes back out again when you pass.

I also found out that the Way of Kings is largely about the birth of magic, since Brandon was tired of fantasy books talking about the death of it. As such, most of the magic systems are largely unknown, and will be explored. There was at one previous time, several hundred years past, magic on the earth. However, it's been gone for a while, and is being rediscovered. There are a total of 30 planned magic systems, and the books will jump around chronologically between the present and character's pasts. The technology level is a typical fantasy, Renaissance minus gunpowder. At least I think that's what he said.

He also mentioned these awesome suits of armor and like 6 foot long swords that he called "Shard Plate" and "Shard Blades." Apparently, they are the only relics left over from the time when mankind originally did have magic. Also, in the mythology of this world, mankind originally lived in heaven. However, a race of beings called (I think) the Voidbringers conquered heaven and basically cast mankind out to the earth. They made war on them again and tried to cast them out to hell, but mankind devised These Shard Blades and Shard Plate as a method of fighting the Voidbringers and were able to push them back. He also mentioned that the world is currently basically dominated by those who have these magical items, and one person with a suit of shard plate and a shard blade is basically the equivalent of an army. When I asked him if these were related to the Shards of Andonalsium at all, he said, "Maybe." He also confirmed that the Stormlight Chronicle (Way of Kings) takes place in the Shards universe.

The reason Way of Kings is called the Stormlight Chronicle apparently has to do with the massive hurricanes that come through every few days. If you leave a gemstone out during the storm (and affix it to something so it won't blow away), it will gain magical properties. One of these is that they give off light, called stormlight. The other that he mentioned is that they can be used kind of like a battery, and are used to power the Shard Plate Suits.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

Seem like as good counterexamples.

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

That WoB just says industrializing.  That could easily refer to Proto-industrialization which is the regional development, alongside commercial agriculture, of rural handicraft production for external markets.^[1] The term was introduced in the early 1970s by economic historians who argued that such developments in parts of Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries...

That does not really mean anything.  These WoBs are counter examples.

Seem like as good counterexamples.

Every single one of those WoB precede the two I posted. Further that doesn't change the interpretation that it is a pre-industrial civilization in the process of industrializing. But as I said, you are free to interpret them however you wish. It is your prerogative. I already stated I feel extensively why i believe the way I do. That does not work for you. And that is fine. it works for me. So I guess RAFO. 

[Karger]

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Further that doesn't change the interpretation that it is a pre-industrial civilization in the process of industrializing

I think we can both agree that it is per-industrialization.  Pretty much any society that is pre-industiail is going to industrialize at some point in the future if it is left to itself and does not blow itself.  Saying that it is in the "process of industrializing" therefor does not mean much either but we are clearly not making progress in this discussion and we have kind of derailed this thread so I think it is agreeable for both of us to call it quits.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I think we can both agree that it is per-industrialization.  Pretty much any society that is pre-industiail is going to industrialize at some point in the future if it is left to itself and does not blow itself.  Saying that it is in the "process of industrializing" therefor does not mean much either but we are clearly not making progress in this discussion and we have kind of derailed this thread so I think it is agreeable for both of us to call it quits.

And that is your prerogative. I believe it is industrializing as we speak. But to each their own. i tried multiple times to go back to the subject matter by reinforcing that Roshar has multiple ways of reaching the cognitive realm, but was shut down that the reason they wouldn't was because they are pre-industrial. So that is why I am leaving it as RAFO. I think book 4 will show starkly what I was speaking of. I wish you luck with your theory.