Theory on Taravangian's Capacity

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Howdy all,

This is my first post on this forum; it's great to be here! Although I have perused this site for some time, please excuse me if this theory has been previously stated. I also wanted to mention that I heard this theory from a close friend, and I have added slightly to it. So the credit (or criticism) goes to him!

In short, I believe that Brandon used the word "capacity" in a purposefully ambiguous way; the interpretation of this term has series-altering potential. Let's first separate fact from assumption. 

Fact 1: Taravangian was given his condition by asking for "the capacity" to save mankind.

Fact 2: Taravangian's condition is defined by a sliding scale of attributes. As he grows more intelligent, he becomes less compassionate and vice versa. Essentially, Taravangian's character is defined by four traits--intelligence, stupidity, ruthlessness, and compassion. 

Assumption: Taravangian's "capacity" to save mankind is referring to his attributes of intelligence and ruthlessness--to a lesser extent) Specifically, it has granted him the capacity to have that outlier day of supreme intelligence, the day where the Diagram was created.

There are several reasons why I believe that the above assumption is wrong.

1. Odium's Encounter--At the end of Oathbringer, Odium displays such a degree of foreknowledge and sheer intelligence that the predictions of the Diagram and Taravangian's potential intelligence seem inconsequential in comparison. Taravangian, based upon his intelligence and ability to make ruthless decisions, never stood a chance. He never had the "capacity" in this way.

2. The Diagram's Degree of Error--As the series progresses, the Diagram seems to stray further and further off course. Although some characters initially chalk this off to misinterpretation, it becomes clear that Diagram is flawed based upon unforeseen results. This concept is further reinforced through other characters, such as Renarin, predicting the future incorrectly. 

3. Taravangian's Own Experience--Lastly, Taravangian himself notes that his outlying days are very similar. When he is both incredibly intelligent and stupid, he cannot interact with humans in a meaningful way. Also, his decisions when he is most intelligent/ruthless seem to actually be incredibly stupid (i.e. killing off his subjects for being stupid etc.). 

In short, the above reasons, especially in view of Taravangian's story arc, show that his intelligence/ruthlessness never even came close to giving him the capacity to save mankind. This does not seem in keeping with what we know about the Nightwatcher/Old Magic. Instead, I believe that Taravangian's "capacity" comes from his more neglected attributes--his potential for compassion and/or for extreme stupidity. These attributes will increase in importance as his character becomes more aligned with Odium. His stupidity may thwart Odium at some critical point, and his compassion is not compatible with being an effective ally of Odium. In a way, Taravangian seems very alike to Gollum. Each are maligned characters that may unintentionally tip the balance in the favor of good, and each are intrinsically tied to the trait of compassion--Gollum to Frodo's compassion and Taravangian to his very own. Furthermore, all this is in keeping with what we know about the Old Magic--namely, that boons are indeed granted but often in ways that are unforeseen/unconventional. 

Please let me know what you think. Regardless of whether it happens or not, this could lead to a very redemptive/beautiful story arc and could be a very Sandersonian twist.

TLDR: Taravangian's capacity to save mankind refers to his compassion/stupidity rather than his intelligence/ruthlessness. 

 

[Karger he/him]

Welcome

Many people do in fact agree with this theory.  To the point where "Mr. T is a plant" has become sort of a meme on the 17th shard.  It is nice to have you here.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Karger

[RShara she/her]

Welcome to the Shard! It's a good theory. A couple of things to note though.

The exact wording of the request doesn't really matter. The Nightwatcher isn't like, a lawyerspren that takes your request and twists it around. She gives you what she thinks you should get, and gives you a curse to go with it. If you're lucky, she'll grant you the spirit of your request. If not, she might give you something completely off the wall.

The other thing is that Taravangian actually met with Cultivation, not the Nightwatcher. And as we see with Dalinar, Cultivation gives you what she thinks you need (somewhat related to your request) and what's more, she gives something that she thinks will be useful to her plans. And she doesn't give something so clear cut as a boon/curse, but something that has the two mixed together. Dalinar didn't get a clear cut boon/curse, for instance. His forgetting and eventual remembrance were all part of the same "gift."

So, given that Cultivation is the one that met with Taravangian, and she has her own goals, I don't think that either his intelligence or his stupidity are going to be important for saving mankind, but both mixed together, both serving Cultivation's purposes at the appropriate times.

 

Quote

Kfirw

Did Taravangian meet the Nightwatcher? Or Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

Cultivation. Good question.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Just now, Karger said:

Welcome

Many people do in fact agree with this theory.  To the point where "Mr. T is a plant" has become sort of a meme on the 17th shard.  It is nice to have you here.

That's not what the T is a Plant theory is about

Edited February 24, 2020 by RShara

[Karger he/him]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

That's not what the T is a Plant theory is about

Cultivation planting Mr T is a way of confounding Odium by making him act in ways that Odium would not expect and even Mr T does not really know about?

Edited February 24, 2020 by Karger

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

The OP's theory is

12 minutes ago, Kwisatz Haderach said:

TLDR: Taravangian's capacity to save mankind refers to his compassion/stupidity rather than his intelligence/ruthlessness. 

Which isn't what the Plant theory is.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Cultivation planting Mr T is a way of confounding Odium by making him act in ways that Odium would not expect?

That IS the theory. There's quite a bit of difference between those two statements

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

That IS the theory. There's quite a bit of difference between those two statements

I find them quite similar but I suppose there is a difference.

[RShara she/her]

Well, one says that his stupid, compassionate days are the key to saving humanity. The other says that T, the Diagram, and all of it together is a long con by Cultivation to stab Odium in the back.

[Weltall]

Welcome to the Shard! Hope you enjoy it here.

44 minutes ago, Kwisatz Haderach said:

2. The Diagram's Degree of Error--As the series progresses, the Diagram seems to stray further and further off course. Although some characters initially chalk this off to misinterpretation, it becomes clear that Diagram is flawed based upon unforeseen results. This concept is further reinforced through other characters, such as Renarin, predicting the future incorrectly.

Some of the usual suspects have already talked about most of the points so I'll just add something here in case you're not aware of it. Futuresight in the Cosmere is affected by the presence of other people with the ability to see the future. So not only is it not entirely reliable (even for a Shard) but whenever you get into a foresight vs foresight match, the results are going to get distorted no matter what the relative power or skill of the parties are. Renarin's visions aren't absolute and they come whenever they feel like it but they're still enough to interfere with Odium's vastly expanded ability to see the future and process what he sees.

Given your username, think of it as two prescients in Dune see the future, except it's not guaranteed that one of them is going to 'win' because the future in the Cosmere isn't as deterministic.

Quote

Questioner

So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and he uses futuresight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin's name linked to it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that because Renarin's abilities interfere with Odium's futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it's going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are-- you can't-- It's the same sort of thing that if-- someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else's futuresight in any way, because once you use that it's going to cause you to act differently, which then-- And remember futuresight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. But yeah, it's just gonna mess things up.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)