Prehistoric Surgebinding vs. Current Rosharan magic

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

To start off, I once subscribed to a theory that a Bondsmith had more options than our traditional 3 (Stormfather Nightwatcher Sibling) based almost entirely by a quote in the in world text Words of Radiance. 

But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious

From the use of the word seditious I figured that 3 Bondsmiths in a generation was an Order imposed upper limit,  that there could be generations of KR that had 3 Bondsmiths where none of them were the 3 we know of. After all there must be other megaspren on Roshar considering how sapient beings,  humans in particular,  tend to personify things.  

However I'm rethinking this. I'm currently rereading OB and the Spren seem to disagree with me. SF says there are only 3 when speaking to Dalinar, Captain Notum says that there's only three when he converses with Stormblessed.  Now Spren aren't omniscient and they can always be mistaken,  yet I'm sure they know enough of the arrangement to know whether a thing can be done,  at least according to their bond. 

Complicating my assertions is Odium and what he proved at Thaylen City.  With the right conditions humans could always bind with Spren. This kinda creates a disconnect,  at least for me. If any spren can be bonded, why are their only 3 Bondsmith spren? Extrapolate this even further, I'm sure there are more sapient spren than the varieties that make up the Knights.  We've seen one type already in the mistspren. So what happens if a human encounters one, meets the conditions for a bond and actually makes it happen? Is Odium lying or is there something to this?

My eventual conclusion is that there was a dividing line in Roshar history,  and that line was the establishment of the Knights Radiant.  Previously the conditions were wild wild west chaotic. The young Nohadon vision seems to indicate that anyone who attracted a Spren was a ticking time bomb/ potential despot. And all spren were on the table, from lesser spren like flame and Windspren to more powerful sapient spren like those who currently form Nahel bonds though not limited to them, even to our favorite Megaspren. Cusiech was likely one who could be bonded,  maybe the Spren of Stone worshipped by the Shin, really if you could manage to make a connection you got power. Bond a flamespren, get an effect similar to bronze Feruchemy. Bond a higher order type Flamespren and become Johnny Storm. The only limitation was whether you could manage that connection. 

Honor would be right to worry that Roshar was heading down the path to Ashyn 2.0 so in conjunction with Ishar, binder of Gods, the Knights Radiant were established.  Spren were put into production that granted Surgebinding,  along with 3 preexisting Megaspren that would grant their bandmates incredible powers to ride herd on these new surgebinders. Then he shut down everyone else's pathway. You could still bind spren that weren't in the KR mix but you'd need a device to make it work.  Plus those surges you command would be far weaker than what you got with a Nahel bond, with less protections. And Honor would always be there in case things got outta hand again,  course correcting for as long as the war with Odium lasted. 

But the Heralds failed and Honor eventually died. And since he was suffering from something like dementia at the end he never got a chance to course correct his creation at the end. Certain overlooked pathways remained open or were forced open by the various Unmade, so now if they but discover it some bonds outside the KR structure have again become possible.   I think that I've given a reasonable approximation of what happened given the clues we've received so far. Any thoughts? 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Bigmikey357 I agree with this for the most part, aside from the implication of bonding lesser spren - I do think that the powers were regulated, constrained, modified, and that those restrains and changes are beginning to crack, and exploits previously unthought of before are being discovered, changing the rules. I don't think lesser spren can typically be bonded or were typically bonded, as I think it requires a higher type of spren to recognise the qualities of a human's presence in the cognitive realm and to make the connection to them when they don't have a gemheart like the parshendi. Otherwise, I like this :-)

I've always had the sneaking suspecion that there actually are ten megaspren, one for each essence, a type of super version of the others, so Stormfather is a superhonourspren, which is why he can make new honourspren, the Nightwatcher is a supercultivationspren, or maybe highspren or whatever type is for Truthwatchers, etc. and each is for a different essence - Stormfather is for wind, Nightwatcher is smoke or plants, Sibling is stone. So there should be seven more for the other essences, and a significant one for the essence of flesh, which matches the essence associated with them.

I definitely think that there is more the surges can do than the Knights previously thought, such as with Kaladin blowing back the storm, probably using adhesion.

[Impact he/him]

These are very interesting ideas. 

 

@Bigmikey357, The attached WoB below *kind of* talks about how there were more sentient spren than the 10 Orders, and theoretically some could form bonds

 

Questioner

One. Can there be Nahel Bonds with more then ten types of spren because we have ten Orders.

Brandon Sanderson

Meaning, are there other possible spren that could form other Orders of Knights Radiant that are not the ten? This is theoretically possible, but that is basically what you could argue is happening to Renarin. So now if you want to say... if you want to throw out the exception of spren who were one of the ten who got changed, then this is theoretically possible but right now currently wouldn't work.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

@Ixthos, I really like the megaspren representing essences and orders.  Though wouldn't there only be nine, because the tenth order is them?  Also, love your avi

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Impact thanks :-) yours looks cool also :-)

I do agree it would be a little strange for a megaspren for flesh if they all represent the essence of flesh, but it could be a spren that represents them just as they represent the spren for the different orders, so the megaspren above the megaspren. So if each spren for the different orders was at the bottom of a triangle, the layer above them would be the megaspren for each order, and the top would be a spren for the megaspen, itself still part of them but above them. While the Stormfather and Nightwatcher in theory represent the essence of flesh due to the Bondsmiths, just as Windrunners represent the essence of wind due to their spren, and Edgedancers represent crystal, etc., they don't seem to have a strong link to it in appearance, so a spren representing that seems to be missing, with all other essences being matched to how the spren look.

... maybe that is where the Unmade came from, the superspren of the megaspren being split into nine and then changed ...

[Impact he/him]

3 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@Impact thanks :-) yours looks cool also :-)

I do agree it would be a little strange for a megaspren for flesh if they all represent the essence of flesh, but it could be a spren that represents them just as they represent the spren for the different orders, so the megaspren above the megaspren. So if each spren for the different orders was at the bottom of a triangle, the layer above them would be the megaspren for each order, and the top would be a spren for the megaspen, itself still part of them but above them. While the Stormfather and Nightwatcher in theory represent the essence of flesh due to the Bondsmiths, just as Windrunners represent the essence of wind due to their spren, and Edgedancers represent crystal, etc., they don't seem to have a strong link to it in appearance, so a spren representing that seems to be missing, with all other essences being matched to how the spren look.

. maybe that is where the Unmade came from, the superspren of the megaspren being split into nine and then changed ...

I do like the idea of the Unmade being somehow related to megaspren, because that's kind of what they are already

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

10 minutes ago, Impact said:

I do like the idea of the Unmade being somehow related to megaspren, because that's kind of what they are already

Indeed! And it could explain were the power to make them came from, especially if Odium isn't that interested in loosing power.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I'm not sure about the Megaspren theory; I suppose it's possible but I'd need more evidence to be convinced.  But there is something that may validate your theory,  the appearance of Oathgates in the CR. The black one looks an awful lot like an oversized Inkspren. Thing is though,  Shards can create spren.  Who is to say Honor didn't make limited edition spren for the Oathgates?