3, 9. Ashertmarn and Nergaoul

[+asmodeus]

Table of Contents: 
4. Some curious parallels between Moelach, the Silent Gatherers, and Edgedancers
5. Truths and Secrets; Of Watching and Taking
3, 9. Ashertmarn and Nergaoul
1. Moash, Ba-Ado-Mishram and the Windrunners

There's been a lot going on in real life for me, so I haven't been able to get these in as quickly as possible. Here's the next two parallels - Ashertmarn and the Dustbringers, and Nergoul and the Stonewards.

3. Ashertmarn and the Dustbringers

Parallel 1: By Inversion of Ideals
Ideals Unknown.

Parallel 2: By Inversion of Attributes
Dustbringer attributes: Obedient, Brave
Thematic Inversion:      Obedient, Cowardly
The idea I present is simple - I believe that in the two divine attributes, one attribute is a direct result of the combination of the Surges the magic is about, and the other is a further extrapolation on the first, a modifier of sorts, that comes from the intent of the Shards whose magic you're looking at. A good example would be that a Windrunner is "Leading" because a Windrunner is a living expression of Adhesion and Gravitation combined, and that they are "Protecting" because of the association of that magic with Honor and Cultivation. Another would be to say a Lightweaver is "Creative" because they are a living expression of the Surges of Illumination and Transformation, and their "Honest"-y is a result of the intents of Honor and Cultivation.

Here, the Surges are Division and Abrasion. Combined, they represent extreme destruction, entropy. This makes Dustbringers a living expression of utter passion, someone who feels powerful emotions. And I think this is where the "Obedient" stems from - a desire to channel their inner passion by devoting it to some purpose.

Add the intent of Honor and Cultivation to this, and you get someone who chooses to do the responsible thing, and does not give in to the whim of the moment. Radiants of this Order feel emotions strongly, and it is in their oath-progression that they learn to not get carried away by them, as it is the responsible thing to do. They exemplify bravery and obedience by not giving in to their base-most desires and not running away from their responsibilities even when that is the easier thing to do. They are the guardians and the sentinels of society, holding back their passions and inner destruction until it is needed in service of a greater cause.

Add Odium to that "Obedient" however, and you get what Ashertmarn represents. The Revel asks its members to give in to the emotions that they feel and encourages it as a means of escape. Yes, times are tough. The end is coming. So run away from your responsibilities, run away and let loose your deepest desires - a cowardly thing to do. People who give in are Obedient for listening to these "commands" of giving in, yet they are Cowardly because the command asks them to let go of responsibility and give up the fight.

Parallel 3: By Surges
Dustbringer Surges: Division, Abrasion
The Revel is a force of destruction and entropy too. It is over-indulgence, and it consumes resources at an exorbitant rate. When you read through the chapters of the Revel, it feels like there's a lot of friction grating onto the minds of those most consumed by it, not to mention some, frankly, bizarre... shoutouts to decay and rot around the Revel.

Spoiler

A variety of people passed by, occasionally scooping food off the tables with their bare hands. They laughed and shouted. Many had been ardents, marked by brown robes. Others were lighteyes, though their clothing had … decayed? It seemed a fitting word for these suits with missing jackets, havah dresses whose skirts were ragged from brushing the ground. Safehand sleeves ripped off at the shoulder and discarded somewhere.

Spoiler

A woman with long hair dragging on the ground looked toward her, grinning with clenched teeth and bleeding gums. She crawled, one hand after another, her havah shredded, faded. She was followed by a man wearing rings glowing with Stormlight, in contrast to his ripped clothing. He giggled incessantly. The food on the tables here rotted, and was infested with decayspren. Kishi wavered at the edge of the ring. She should have kept to the outer ring; she didn’t belong here. There was food aplenty behind her. Laughter and reveling. It seemed to pull her back, inviting her to join the eternal, beautiful walk.

Parallel 4: Special
The last thing I want to mention is to look at the Dustbringer-equivalent symbol on the Voidbinding chart. That symbol can be seen as a stylised representation of a giant crab/lobster thing, seen from the front. This is similar to what little of Ashertmarn we've seen in the Cognitive Realm, and what it implied of his full form.

---

9. Nergoul and the Stonewards

Parallel 1: By Inversion of Ideals
Ideals Unknown - but we do have point of speculation from this WoB. "I will stand when others fall." fits Taln extremely well, who is practically the literal embodiment of that ideal. Add to that this context, from the in-world Word of Radiance:

Spoiler

"Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error."

Interestingly, the same concept, and that context of a focus on Strength, also applies very much to those affected by Nergaoul's Thrill - properly known as the Thrill of Conquest/Contest. The idea behind it is that of hostile opposition, of fighting between men, of victory over others. "I will stand when others fall."

Parallel 2: By Inversion of Attributes
Stoneward attributes: Resourceful, Dependable
Thematic Inversion:    Resourceful, Undependable
Here, the Surges are Cohesion and Tension. While we don't know the exact nature of each of these, it is safe to go by dictionary definitions. And in this, Cohesion represents how well things fit together, and Tension would be about opposition between things. And being a living embodiment of them both to could lead to the "Resourceful" trait, where its about being quick and clever in overcoming challenge.

Add the intent of Honor and Cultivation to this, and you get someone who is Dependable. Someone who makes an Oath and stands by it, and stands out in this quality even over other Knights Radiant. Someone who is both Dependable and Resourceful - the archetype that is the quintessential honorable Warrior.

Add Odium to that "Resourceful" however, and you get what Nergoul represents. The thrill makes people lust and look for battle, and they lose themselves in that battle lust. Those under the Thrill can no longer be depended on to keep their heads or focus on an objective - the Thrill makes them addicts of its effects, caring only for their next hit and losing themselves in its embrace. Under its influence, there's no friend and foe, there is only your opponent and how you'll defeat them. It doesn't temper your resourcefulness however, as shown by several characters in Dalinar's flashbacks using innovative methods to fight and hurt and win, when under the influence of the Thrill.

Parallel 3: By Surges
Stoneward Surges: Cohesion, Tension

On Merriam Webster, the definition of Tension reads,
  1  a:  inner striving, unrest, or imbalance often with physiological indication of emotion   
      b:  a state of latent hostility or opposition between individuals or groups
      c:  a balance maintained in an artistic work between opposing forces or elements
  2  a:  the act or action of stretching or the condition or degree of being stretched to stiffness : TAUTNESS
      b:  STRESS sense 1b
  3  a:  either of two balancing forces causing or tending to cause extension

On Merriam Webster, the definition of Cohesion reads,
  1:  the act or state of sticking together tightly
          especially : UNITY
              :  the lack of cohesion in the Party — The Times Literary Supplement (London)
              :  cohesion among soldiers in a unit
  2:  union between similar plant parts or organs
  3:  molecular attraction by which the particles of a body are united throughout the mass

So, Tension and Cohesion can fit Nergaoul's Thrill, by the definitions in purple highlights. Reduce Cohesion and increase Tension, and suddenly you have an army of soldiers all fighting and killing each other, consumed in battle-lust.

Edited February 15, 2020 by asmodeus

[Honorless he/him]

Loved how you subverted the Ideal of the Stonewards 

The thematic relations are definitely there, the Realmatics of the Primary & Secondary Divine Attributes you proposed is quite good too! Are they particular in regards to the Primary or Secondary Attribute corresponding to the Surge or the Intent? 

[Karger he/him]

This is pretty good.  The rest of us theorists will have to up our game.  Also please add your theory to my hall.

 

[+asmodeus]

9 hours ago, Honorless said:

Loved how you subverted the Ideal of the Stonewards 

The thematic relations are definitely there, the Realmatics of the Primary & Secondary Divine Attributes you proposed is quite good too! Are they particular in regards to the Primary or Secondary Attribute corresponding to the Surge or the Intent? 

Thank you! That ideal was one of the more easy connections to make, once it hit that the ideal fits.

As for the Surge/Intent associations with Primary/Secondary attributes, they don't really follow a strict pattern of the Primary always coming from one place, and the secondary always coming from another. Which I'm relatively okay with, because I have it on good authority that the table is not perfectly correct in the associations it makes.

One good example of this is how Soulcasting Essence/Body Focus are associated with the Orders by pairing soulcasting gem/radiant eye colors. This holds better for some orders than others. Say, a Windrunner is Translucent Air and gases, which is okay with the Honorspren appearing as translucent blue spren. A Willshaper is associated with the Essence of Metal, and the Reachers do look like they have metallic copper skin. Same for Elscallers being associated with oil and oily liquids, which fits the name and description of Inkspren. The Stoneward spren look like molten stone, Ashspren have connotations to fire and ash. So far, so good. Not the best associations, but the themes do hold.

Well, not so much the Truthwatcher and Edgedancer spren. The Edgedancer spren, or the Cultivationspren, are green, and attention is drawn to how their hair looks like it's made of plant-like vines; however, Pulp/plant matter and hair are associated with the Truthwatchers and their emerald eyes. Similarly, the Truthwatcher spren looks like light passing through glass or crystal, when Lucentia, and quartz/glass/crystal is the Edgedancer essence. You'd also imagine that Truthwatchers would have the Body Focus of eyes, because... you know, watching. But nope.

When I asked Peter about this, his response was this:

Spoiler

It's important to remember that the table of the Ten Essences and Their Historical Associations is an in-world document based on the understanding of the people of Roshar. Some parts of it reflect reality more closely than other parts. Some of it attempts to put things in little boxes that resist being constrained to those boxes. Some of it may be essentially irrelevant. And there may also be other associations that exist but are not reflected in the table.

In other words, practically any way of twisting that table for speculation is... technically, fair game.

5 hours ago, Karger said:

This is pretty good.  The rest of us theorists will have to up our game.  Also please add your theory to my hall.

Thank you!

I will eventually, as I near completion. The idea right now is to explore 7 of the Unmade in relation to their potentially paired Orders, with Dai-Gonarthis and Chemorish leaving us not much to work with. I will probably do Yelig-nar and Ba-Ado-Mishram in one next time, then one for Re-Shephir, and cover the Bondsmiths, Willshapers and Elscallers in the capstone post, in which I will talk about the full, unified shape of Surgebinding and Voidbinding I'm building towards, and one potential reason why the Voidbinding Chart exists, and what it's meant to represent.

I can add that final post to that Hall of yours, and link back to the others in it. As it stands, I only have series of posts that establish thematic connections, but with no sort of... over-arching directive.

Edited January 29, 2020 by asmodeus

[Honorless he/him]

Can we have a separate breakdown of the Divine Attributes' thematic inversions? Hmm.. I assume with different synonyms for some of the attributes

[Karger he/him]

14 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

I can add that final post to that Hall of yours, and link back to the others in it. As it stands, I only have series of posts that establish thematic connections, but with no sort of... over-arching directive.

That is cool.  Whenever you are ready.

[+asmodeus]

On 1/29/2020 at 2:16 PM, Honorless said:

Can we have a separate breakdown of the Divine Attributes' thematic inversions? Hmm.. I assume with different synonyms for some of the attributes

I have this as a reference table, but without definitions it won't really make much sense. Ask me any, that you feel don't fit, I'll be happy to answer why I chose that specific layout. The red ones are more tentative than others, though most of this is speculation anyway, so... keep a saltshaker close by 

(Start in the central column, and read from center to left for Surgebinding, and from center to right for Voidbinding)

Edited February 3, 2020 by asmodeus

[Honorless he/him]

I see you swapped the Primary Secondary of Pali, Ash, Battah & Kalak. Why merge honest/inspiring? Ah, Spiritual Perfect Self? 

[+asmodeus]

11 hours ago, Honorless said:

I see you swapped the Primary Secondary of Pali, Ash, Battah & Kalak. Why merge honest/inspiring? Ah, Spiritual Perfect Self? 

It's sourced from several places - one is the discussion that Hoid and Shallan have on the nature of art in the OB chapter "The Girl Who Stood Up," and the happy aura that Lighweavers have displayed, backed by the in-world Words of Radiance quote:

Spoiler

"Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault."

The idea is that the art that the Lighweavers create is fundamentally inspiring, qualitatively, as they come from an Honest understanding of who/what they are. On the other hand, Re-shephir's creations are just a little bit off, with some few little details always wrong about them, and they are destructive/violent in nature. They stem from her fundamental need to understand something she can never understand, as her psyche is just too... alien in nature.

Edited January 30, 2020 by asmodeus

[Honorless he/him]

19 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

It's sourced from several places - one is the discussion that Hoid and Shallan have on the nature of art in the OB chapter "The Girls Who Stood Up," and the happy aura that Lighweavers have displayed, backed by the in-world Words of Radiance quote:

  Reveal hidden contents

"Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault."

The idea is that the art that the Lighweavers create is fundamentally inspiring, qualitiatively, as they come from an Honest understanding of who/what they are. On the other hand, Re-shephir's creations are just a little bit off, with some few little details always wrong about them, and they are destructive/violent in nature. They stem from her fundamental need to understand something she can never understand, as her psyche is just too... alien in nature.

*hmms in agreement*

Thanks for the attachment!

I noticed that you used the term 'Unmagic' to describe them both in the file and the main/first? topic you posted regarding this idea. Is that to connect with the term 'Unmade' or do you have any theories connected to this one regarding the Voidish Surges?

[+asmodeus]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

*hmms in agreement*

Thanks for the attachment!

I noticed that you used the term 'Unmagic' to describe them both in the file and the main/first? topic you posted regarding this idea. Is that to connect with the term 'Unmade' or do you have any theories connected to this one regarding the Voidish Surges?

That's actually where all of this began. That first post I made were the initial ideas I had on this, and the more I think about it, the harder it seems to separate Surges from the magic. A Windrunner's powers may be Pressure and Gravity, but a Windrunner (by character) and Honorspren (by nature) also represent an elemental combination of those two things. So it only goes to say that this will also extend to Voidbinding and the Unmade - as they are also spren, and consequently living ideas.

The Un- was a bit of wordplay, honestly. I do think the Un- there is similar to the Un- in Un-holy, or Un-dead, kind of, where it's not really meant to convey a sense of "taken apart," but more... sort of... wrongness, or falseness. And so Unmagics. Unholy magics, or magics of a God that is not our true god. False, dark, magics. That sort of thing.

[Dalfiatach]

On 30/01/2020 at 11:42 AM, asmodeus said:

A Windrunner's powers may be Pressure and Gravity, but a Windrunner (by character) and Honorspren (by nature) also represent an elemental combination of those two things. So it only goes to say that this will also extend to Voidbinding and the Unmade - as they are also spren, and consequently living ideas.

The Un- was a bit of wordplay, honestly. I do think the Un- there is similar to the Un- in Un-holy, or Un-dead, kind of, where it's not really meant to convey a sense of "taken apart," but more... sort of... wrongness, or falseness. And so Unmagics. Unholy magics, or magics of a God that is not our true god. False, dark, magics. That sort of thing.

Ah! Yes I understand. I like this, I like it a lot.

The broader theory too makes a lot of sense where each of the Radiant orders + Odium wrongness gives you the Voidish equivalent - and that each of the Unmade are some sort of personification of (or elemental expression of?) the Voidbinding perversion of the original. Curious why you think Odium himself is the tenth, and maybe not that there is a "missing" Unmade though?

Or is it the other way round.....are the Radiants what you get when you subtract Odium/Unmade and add Honor/Cultivation - some of our scholars may have a better understanding of the hints we've been given of the early history of surgbinding whether radiant or voidish? Which came first, Singer bonds with spren that the humans somehow copied or the other way round? I'm just spitballing here but it sounds like the kind of curveball Brandon might decide to throw

[+asmodeus]

19 hours ago, Dalfiatach said:

Curious why you think Odium himself is the tenth, and maybe not that there is a "missing" Unmade though?

That connection came from me trying to explain Bondsmiths. Because the Bondsmiths are special. The Stormfather explicitly states that both of Dalinar's surges are different from how they behave for other Radiants who share those Surges, so there's that. But even more, Bondsmiths are fixed to never being more than three, with very specific spren which can best be described as Godspren.

Think about it. The Stormfather is a spren, sure, but one that Honor specifically groomed to be his heir. Ditto with the Nightwatcher and Cultivation. Both of those can be thought of as these, sort of... "proxies" for the Gods themselves. Add to this the "Pious" trait of the Bondsmiths, and you get this archetypical priest. Someone who is directly in commune with God. Ishar, the Bondsmith patron, even calls himself the God-priest. In current day, you could argue that Dalinar is essentially Nahel Bonded to Honor himself, because of the fact that the majority of Honor's power went to the Stormfather when Tanavast died.

And so, if there's nine Unmade, and there's no Unmade that correlates to the Bondsmiths, then who else can go in that slot? 

See, we've been explicitly told of a position on Odium's side that very much fits thematically with the "connected to god" nature of the Bondsmiths - the Champion of Odium. Someone who is directly bonded to Odium himself, someone with 9 shadows. Coincidentally, Hessi says that the Unmade were thought of as "nine shadows that moved in the night."

There's also other, smaller ways in which this fits. The golden-white color of Bondsmiths is something that Odium is very fond of showing himself as. And thematically, it's pretty cool to think that if this equivalency between the Champion and Bondsmiths holds, then at the climax of OB, what was really happening was the Odium was trying to corrupt Dalinar (who is, in a way, the Bondsmith of Honor) into his own version of a Bondsmith, but it backfired because of Cultivation's influence and only solidified Dalinar as Honor's Bondsmith instead.

There's also a philosphical element, in so far as I'm eventually building towards an argument that Voidbinding deals with 10 philosophical deaths of Honor. These are the 10 deaths that the Radiant in that one vision was talking about. Like, philosophically, in Vanity (when you care more for the appearance of upholding an attribute, and not about actually upholding that attribute), Cowardliness, Apathy, Selfishness, etc. - in all these things, Honor dies. And then literally, Odium killed Honor. So... you know. It's one of those silly connections that I find hilarious, and thematically on-point.

Edited February 3, 2020 by asmodeus