Marsh's Powers, and the Hemalurgy use.

[Shardmancer he/him]

Whats the chances its Fmalatium or Feruchemical lerasium.. we have alot more mistborn books to go and Marsh could be around for a while.. Its just like Brandon to throw us all a curve ball and not realse any of it till we see it in action

[Cstryon he/him]

Double brass and zinc make sense. It would be very helpful when Ruin was meeting resistance, inquisitor is now super scary.

Plus the inquisitors were taking Koloss armies. So having double emotional allomancy means less need to use duralumin. I think PorridgeBrick, you might have a good count!

I highly doubt fLarasium, there wasn't anymore Larasium, unless Sazed made more. And for fMalatium, well, we'd have to know what it stored and why it would be useful to Ruin. As far as I know, none of the inquisitors were doing anything we can't currently explain yet, and even though Marsh could have used the left over spikes from the dead inquisitors to get fMalatium, if Ruin had a reason to make that spike, I expect we would have seen it used.

[Moogle]

Marsh leaves Marasi numb when he tries to Soothe/Riot her, which implies he has little control over his abilities. Increased 'dexterity' comes with more power (as we see with Kelsier and Zane), so I doubt Marsh had double Allomantic brass/Allomantic zinc spikes.

[Cstryon he/him]

Kelsier and Zane both had reason to practice their skills. Marsh's only dexterous use we see is how Marasi seemed curious (which could just be a simple pull), unless I am not remembering something. His rather blunt use of soothing to me seemed like too much, he wasn't just obvious, like you said, he numbed her. His soothing wouldn't have been as strong, as a soother or mistborn because he got it second hand. And I don't think he's foolish enough to think he needed to use duralumin on her. I think he even mentioned something of an apology for soothing so strongly. He was unpracticed, with too much power.

[Moogle]

Kelsier and Zane both had reason to practice their skills. Marsh's only dexterous use we see is how Marasi seemed curious (which could just be a simple pull), unless I am not remembering something. His rather blunt use of soothing to me seemed like too much, he wasn't just obvious, like you said, he numbed her. His soothing wouldn't have been as strong, as a soother or mistborn because he got it second hand. And I don't think he's foolish enough to think he needed to use duralumin on her. I think he even mentioned something of an apology for soothing so strongly. He was unpracticed, with too much power.

 

Here's what he says:

 

“I apologize for bringing you like this,” Ironeyes said. He had a quiet, gravelly voice.

“Like this?” she said, her voice coming out as almost a squeak.

“With emotional Allomancy. I sometimes Pull too hard. I’ve never been as good at this sort of thing as Breeze was. Be calm, child. I will not hurt you.”

She felt an instant calmness, though that felt terribly unnatural, and left her feeling even worse. Calm, but sick. One should not be calm when speaking with Death himself.

 

"I sometimes Pull too hard" implies he's clumsy, which implies a low level of power to me. All the powerful Mistborn - Vin, Kelsier, Zane - get increased dexterity, or so it seems. They also need practice, of course (Elend never did so he remained incompetent), but we never see anyone weak who has Zane's ability to hover with just one coin.

 

Marsh has lived for centuries, and he'd have to Soothe anyone he comes in contact with so they're not afraid. I think he'd get pretty practiced at it over time, so it can't just be practice that's at fault for his inability to deftly Soothe Marasi, I think he's weak in emotional Allomancy, which would make sense because Hemalurgy weakens the ability stolen (unless you get more than one spike).

[TheArcanist he/him]

I am of the opinion that their power gives them a chance to be more dexterous, as opposed to being inherently more subtle. You're forgetting a few things here- one, Zane was trained effectively from birth to be a perfect intelligence agent, Kelsier barely needed Allomancy to get people to do what he wanted- it just made it easier -and Vin was doing it instinctively from birth. She was Preservation's Heir, Vin was more than just a skilled Allomancer, she was Allomancy, Allomancy was in her blood. Think of Elend and his clumsiness with everything Allomantic. Even given the same amount of proper training Vin had, he still stumbled on landing, he still didn't really understand the grace and flow of an Allomantic duel. He was like a kid far too strong for his age. In a similar way, Marsh's clumsiness reads to me as power- if he was clumsy and weak, she wouldn't have responded at all, but would have resisted the manipulation.

 

I seriously doubt Marsh possesses any God Metals other than Atium. He still had a substantial stash of Atium that he stole off the rogue kandra fleeing the Homeland- it was reportedly quite a large sack -and Brandon has stated that a single bead of Atium, sufficiently compounded, could turn a grown man into a child. That Atium stash would quite blatantly serve Marsh's needs until the natural Atium cycle returns to normal, which should be right around the time of Alloy of Law.

 

I agree entirely with Porridge's list of Spikes and powers Marsh possesses, as it makes perfect sense. While a regular Inquisitor is thrown back by Elend's sheer Allomantic power, Marsh can match him Push to Push and Pull to Pull, which would indicate a doubling of typical Allomantic ability similar to a Lerasium Mistborn as supported by Vin being able to pierce Copperclouds like Rashek could. I think it's fairly safe to assume any Lerasium Mistborn is twice as strong in everything than your average "pure" Allomancer.

 

I doubt Marsh has a Spike to increase his mental fortitude. That might increase processing speed and intelligence, sure, but it also increases willpower- and Marsh by himself was almost strong enough in his convictions to resist Ruin, a literal force of nature. I seriously doubt Ruin would have allowed that when burning Atium does effectively the same thing, and he wouldn't really have required independent thought out of the Inquisitors.

[Moogle]

Think of Elend and his clumsiness with everything Allomantic. Even given the same amount of proper training Vin had, he still stumbled on landing, he still didn't really understand the grace and flow of an Allomantic duel. He was like a kid far too strong for his age. In a similar way, Marsh's clumsiness reads to me as power- if he was clumsy and weak, she wouldn't have responded at all, but would have resisted the manipulation.

 

Elend didn't have the same amount of training that Vin had. He actively avoided practicing, in fact, so he could do king stuff. Vin whines about it. Vin quite simply had much more practice, and had been doing it for years longer than Elend. I have little doubt that if Elend put his mind to it and took an interest in Allomancy for a few years he could have come close to matching Vin.

 

In a similar way, Marsh's clumsiness reads to me as power- if he was clumsy and weak, she wouldn't have responded at all, but would have resisted the manipulation.

 

There's these WoBs, though, which implies differently:

Kaimipono (15 October 2008)

What was Zane's hemalurgical power? (Or was he just spiked for control?)

Brandon Sanderson (16 October 2008)

Extra power with Pushing on metals. It lent him extremely great precision.

(source)

 

 

sporkify (18 October 2008)

How much control do Allomancers have over pushing and pulling metals?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

Depends on the Allomancer. Zane and Kelsier were both unusually skilled in this area, and represent the higher end of what is possible.

(source)

 

With the implication that more power (or more spikes) = more control, Marsh's inability to use emotional Allomancy any way but clumsily implies to me that he must only have one weak spike for each Allomantic bronze and Allomantic zinc.

 

After all, anyone can flare metals if they have to. If you're weak, you may very well have to flare to get a normal effect on someone else. Flaring implies straining which means there'd be a loss of control.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Cstryon he/him]

These are good points Moogle. And the fact he said he was never as good as Breeze was might also indicate he's working at the same level, just with less talent.

So maybe an extra Allomantic zinc, making him able to get Marasi to follow him, but just simply Allomantic brass, which makes him clumsy with soothing. Which would bring the list down to 20.

So at least one more spike. I'd give it to Allomantic pewter. This would make him very strong. Which is useful when it comes to melee. Something I can see both Ruin and TLR wanting.

Does having double the power make it easier to become a savant? Assuming an inquisitor would hardly need to worry about a decent supply of metals, and would obviously have to always have a huge supply of steel and iron just to see. They'd probably burn more than just steel and iron all the time. So if having increased power in one metal gives you increased control, I picture the user becoming a savant quickly.

So with that assumption, Marsh may be a steel, iron, pewter savant.

And stormit, he could be a tin savant out of necessity, lacking any visual input other than a bunch of blue lines pointing to every metal.

[Two McMillion he/him]

Until indicated otherwise I will assume that Ironeyes is at least as powerful as the Lord Ruler.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Okay, so here's the new list then.

Allomantic iron (x2), Feruchemical iron

Allomantic steel (x2), Feruchemical steel

Allomantic tin (x2), Feruchemical tin

Allomantic pewter (x2), Feruchemical pewter

Allomantic zinc

Allomantic brass

Allomantic bronze, Feruchemical bronze

Allomantic gold, Feruchemical gold

Allomantic duralumin

Allomantic atium, Feruchemical atium

I took down both Allomantic zinc and Allomantic brass. It seems unlikely to me they'd do one and not the other. So to compensate, I doubled up both Allomantic pewter and Allomantic tin. I fear I'm creating too mucn of a monster here though, with compounding AND doubled up spikes. If this is right, then you really had best not grapple with Marsh, because he will tear you limb from limb like others snap twigs. And best not to get within a mile of him, because he will sense you. Edited May 28, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Cstryon he/him]

Until indicated otherwise I will assume that Ironeyes is at least as powerful as the Lord Ruler.

I really want this to be true. But we have to accept that each spike gives only one power (until some super multipowered spike is discovered) so with only "upwards of twenty" spikes, and not being a full mistborn or feruchemist to start with, he wouldn't have enough spikes to give him the same power TLR had.

New list looks good. And yes, he's not only compounding strength and senses, he's compounding speed weight, healing, and youth. He's starting to sound pretty scary!

Now comparing to TLR, he's not as strong for sure. TLR seemed to create them with the thought of being able to control them, so his emotional allomancy was obviously strong, if that's what you need to control beings with spikes. TLR had around 1000 years to learn all his tricks, plus had become a sliver, so he was clued into stuff.

So Marsh, now being possibly the most powerful non shard holding being on Scadrial, could start learning some neat cool tricks.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Cstryon

[Pechvarry]

My opinion doesn't seem to be popular, so far, but I need to point this out: there's simply no way Inquisitors lack Allomantic copper.  Just because they know it can be pierced doesn't make it a worthless tool, and I'm sure we've seen evidence that they burn copper just in the first book alone.  

They need it to do their jobs, and if they have it, so does Marsh.

 

 

I doubt that. Hemalurgy doesn't appear to work that way. It's not like surgically grafting skin onto a person to patch them up, but much more like flaying a guy then stapling said skin onto yourself then going on a homicidal rampage with obsidian axes.

 

Perhaps this isn't a response to my post that was directly above it, so I apologize if that's the case, but this is only the surface application of Hemalurgy.  It also makes "Hemalurgic Creations" and even Inquisitors apparently have physiological differences from Scadrian humans.  

 

There's a belief that a certain amount of Preservation's Investiture is enough to make a mistborn, and I believe Brandon mentions in the annotations that the difference between normal humans and Allomancers is the amount of that innate Investiture.  However, we have no idea what happens when we add a crapload of Investiture to a Misting.

 

I'm not saying I'm certain of it, but I wouldn't discount the concept that X number of spikes in very specific places could emulate a functional, Mistborn spiritweb.  

 

 

[Lumen]

The Spikes used by Kandra and Koloss.  Could these be used by the Inquisitors?  The Spikes used by Koloss (potency) are created from normal humans (not mistings).  If these can be used by Inquisitors, they could have a stronger base strength, before alomantic pewter is used.   Not sure if the other "blessings" were also created from normal humans.  

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

My opinion doesn't seem to be popular, so far, but I need to point this out: there's simply no way Inquisitors lack Allomantic copper. Just because they know it can be pierced doesn't make it a worthless tool, and I'm sure we've seen evidence that they burn copper just in the first book alone.

They need it to do their jobs, and if they have it, so does Marsh.

Bleh, didn't even notice it was missing. Edit time.

Allomantic iron (x2), Feruchemical iron

Allomantic steel (x2), Feruchemical steel

Allomantic tin (x2), Feruchemical tin

Allomantic pewter (x2), Feruchemical pewter

Allomantic zinc

Allomantic brass

Allomantic copper

Allomantic bronze, Feruchemical bronze

Allomantic gold, Feruchemical gold

Allomantic duralumin

Allomantic atium, Feruchemical atium

I think this is the best version of this list. It's got 22 spikes, which fits better with the description "upwards of twenty". Any more spikes, and you either start using human attributes or doubling the remainder, which I find unlikely to be doubled. I doubt the use of human attributes, because Compounding can cover all those traits easily, and without the horrific distortion inherent to human attributes.

[TheArcanist he/him]

Alright, so I think we have sufficiently determined what Spikes and powers, both Feruchemical and Allomantic, Marsh possesses. Now, the real question is, what's the full extent of damage he could do with them?

[Cstryon he/him]

Bleh, didn't even notice it was missing. Edit time.

I think this is the best version of this list. It's got 22 spikes, which fits better with the description "upwards of twenty". Any more spikes, and you either start using human attributes or doubling the remainder, which I find unlikely to be doubled. I doubt the use of human attributes, because Compounding can cover all those traits easily, and without the horrific distortion inherent to human attributes.

This is a great list, when I'm not on my cell, I think I'll update the Op with it.

[Cstryon he/him]

Iron pull, compound weight, might rip your hand off pulling your sword out.

Compound speed and weight, might as well be a horizontal meteor smash.

Just a ccouple..,

[TheArcanist he/him]

Also, think about it this way- Marsh could probably do what Wax did, which is detonate a building. Maybe even what Vin did, given enough stores- which is blow up Kredik Shaw.

[Aurim]

When I read the book, I assumed that he gave Marsh the Feruchemical atium spike, because he is about Ruin not just destruction. So maybe after he found his body, he simply intended to use Marsh as a one man killing machine. Not have everyone snuffed out by the Mists - instead he would make Marsh kill people one by one. That might take some time. Especially, since he would probably kill all of the people on the other continent. Still that plan makes a lot of sense from what we saw of Ruin's mindset.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Is there a reason no one has brought up non-Allomantic/Feruchemical spikes?  It is possible that he also has an iron spike for human strength.  At least once in HoA he described as "unnaturally tall" and given what we know of iron hemalurgy from the MAG (yes I know, not the greatest source):

 

 

Even one causes the recipient’s body to swell to inhuman proportions,and dramatically dulls his or her mind.

 

Although he certainly doesn't fit the second part of that so I dunno...

[TheArcanist he/him]

I think Marsh was just tall. He's always been described as imposing, but given that line I'm no longer so sure. However, Marsh still seems perfectly in control of his mind, so I don't think he's using a Human Trait Spike. Also, if I recall correctly, there's a chart depicting the Hemalurgic bindpoints in the MAG, so we should probably find a copy of that for reference as well.

 

In other news, I found this illustration amidst official Mistborn ones by a fellow on deviantART named Inkthinker, who's done most of the official illustrations for Cosmere books- especially all the stuff in Stormlight. This depiction of an Inquisitor just so happens to be one of Marsh, and several of the Spikes are clearly visible. Using my deviantART account, I've asked him if this depiction is accurate to Marsh during Final Empire or Hero of Ages. Personally, I'm leaning towards Final Empire just because of when it was made, but it's still something useful to look at for the purposes of this thread.

 

http://inkthinker.deviantart.com/art/Mistborn-Steel-Inquisitor-96465004?offset=90#comments

[Cstryon he/him]

Jeez, that picture really makes him creepy. Please Marsh, be so kind and put on a trench coat and hood?

[TheArcanist he/him]

He has other ones of Inquisitors in trench coats. With accurate Scadrian lighting.

 

http://inkthinker.deviantart.com/art/Mistborn-Inquisitor-II-96774045

[Cstryon he/him]

For physical attributes, I could see the need for strength, maybe intelligence. Though Marsh was already pretty smart. We know that hemalurgy causes the user to not be quite human. I also suspected using Allomantic pewter actually helped build a strong physique. Ham was muscular, and I always pictured Vin not being scrawny, after using pewter for a while.

So he's using pewter a lot, building on his already imposing figure, I see him being very strong without the need for a strength spike.

Would a strength spike actually make a visible change in appearance?

[TheArcanist he/him]

As per the MAG, yes it would. Think about it. Four Spikes were enough to turn a regular person into a Koloss- just one would turn you into... something else. Something twisted and probably mentally unstable. Instead of being a patchwork of minds reduced to apathy and rage, you'd be one mind with a gibbering sidekick.

 

Also let's not forget Feruchemically tapping a pewtermind make you grow in size. Sazed became as large and powerful as the oldest Koloss during the Siege of Luthadel.

Edited May 29, 2014 by TheArcanist