Why did the listeners need to contend gemhearts?

[king of nowhere]

I'm putting this in the general thread because it don't contain significant WoR spoilers, except the size of the shattered plains (and the fact that the parshendi calledd themselves listener).

 

The official explanation for why they contended the gemhearts with the alethi is that they needed gems to soulcast food. but there are problems with this explanation, once we learn how big the plains really are. The alethi army needed like 7-8 days of marching to reach the center, where the listeners lived. that means that the plateaus on striking distance of the warcamps were a small minority.

Let's make some math there. plateau runs lasted no more than one day, so the plateau could not be more than half a day of marching, since they also needed to come back.

A small strike force can move much faster than a full army, especially with the bridges acting as choke points, but still it is safe to assume that the alethi never penetrated more than one tenth of the plain. but let's be very conservative and assume the alethi could penetrate to one fifth of the plain.

THat means the striking area of the alethi troops was one circle centered on the warcamps, with a radius of 1/5 of the shattered plains, and area of 1/25 of the total. But half that area was outside of the plains (some approximations involved; i figure the bigger circumference of the plains can be approximated to a straight line, cutting the smaller circle of the alethi-treathened area in half; I'm also ignoring the fact that with 10 warcamps, it should be an ellipse).

So, by this math, the alethi could only reach 2% of the area of the shattered plains. the other 98% was only reachable by the listeners, who could harvest gemhearts from there undisturbed.

So, if the chasmfiends had an even chance of pupating anywhere on the plains, the listeners could avoid confrontation and still get 98% of the gems undistrurbed. I doubt that 2% was the one making the difference between surviving and starving.

Even if we assume that the chasmfiends preferred the west side, and that they were ten times more likely to pupate near the alethi camps, that would still leave no more than 20% of the gemhearts within alethi reach. listeners could get the remaining 80%, which sshould still be more than enough.

This is especially true if we consider how their numbers dwindled during the years. the listeners took heavy losses in the 5 years war (no spoiler here; dalinar himself in the way of kings remarks how thhey stopped striking the warcamps and are fielding smaller and smaller armies; eshonai merely confirms it). less populations means less food needed, and less food needed means less need for gem racing. So, by that count, the listeners should have been able to thrive undisturbed by just getting gemhearts outside of alethi reach.

the only way the listeners could actually need to compete with the alethi is if the chasmfiends ONLY pupate near the warcamps. which don't make much sense; maybe they favor the western edge, but is it reasonable that with all the room available, they only choose that meager 2% (2% with generous estimations to how much the strike forces could march) to pupate?

 

Also, the listeners came from much farther than the alethi, but they could move faster cause they needed no bridges. So, if they really needed the gems on the alethi side, couldn't they just leave a temporary camp one day from the alethi warcamps? that would cut several hours of marching, and would ensure that the listeners could get most gems before the alethi could march to the plateau. at the same time the alethi could never treathen the advanced camp; the tower was the end of the reach of alethi scouts, and the temporary camp needed only be set a little farther than that. plus, if the alethi ever came, the listeners could just abandon it and jump away. their mobility is an incredible advantage on the plains, letting them engage and disengage at will.

 

Maybe the simpler explanation is that eshonai is a grossly incompetent military commander, or at least grossly incompetent at lateral thinking. Makes sense; the listeners had no military commanders, neither any kind of military tradition, before the war.

or maybe it's their strange sense of honor, the same that caused the listeners to not chase the defeated alethi, despite the fact that by jumping the chasms when the alethi needed to retreat on bridges, they would never have any problem catching their prey.

 

Because, the more I think about the advantages offered by that kind of superior mobility over the plateaus, the more I am convinced that a listener commander competent in guerrilla strategies should have totally raped the alethi army.

 

[kaellok he/him]

When reading WoK, I always thought that they usually weren't really 'dying,' based on their reactions of the dead, and that they were launching fewer assaults on the Alethi warcamps because fighting them on the plateau was more effective for their plan: long-term disruption of the Alethi, draining them of strength and resources all while convincing them that they were slowly winning the war.  Meanwhile, after a Highstorm or four, I thought that the 'dead' Parshendi would get up and go back home--if they had been given enough time undisturbed by others.  If that makes sense.

 

The reality, though, as you say is--quite a bit different. 

 

WoR Spoilers of a more direct nature.

Given that, near the end, Eshonai simply stops competing for the gemhearts, and considers the competitions to be foolish games that accomplish nothing, you have a really strong question: What the hell was the point, from their point of view?  They did need gemhearts to feed themselves, but as you say, they could have done that without engaging the Alethi.  Maybe it started as a means and way to limit the Alethi from getting to their homebase in the center of the Plains, and they just 'forgot' to adjust their battle plan when it stopped being a good idea.

[Argent he/him]

They use them to grow food, not Soulcast it. Maybe there are other uses.

[king of nowhere]

When reading WoK, I always thought that they usually weren't really 'dying,' based on their reactions of the dead, and that they were launching fewer assaults on the Alethi warcamps because fighting them on the plateau was more effective for their plan: long-term disruption of the Alethi, draining them of strength and resources all while convincing them that they were slowly winning the war.  Meanwhile, after a Highstorm or four, I thought that the 'dead' Parshendi would get up and go back home--if they had been given enough time undisturbed by others.  If that makes sense.

 

The reality, though, as you say is--quite a bit different. 

 

You know, I never tought of that. I always took for granted the alethi version, i.e. the listeners numbers were falling. While it turned out to be the correct explanation, it wasn't as certain to one who didn't read wor as I assumed. I should have put the thread in the words of radiance subforum.

[kaellok he/him]

They use them to grow food, not Soulcast it. Maybe there are other uses.

 

I think you're missing the thrust of king of nowhere's argument.  Even assuming that gemhearts are incredibly vital and necessary for their very survival, why were they going after the same ones the Alethi were?  Given the vast space in the Shattered Plains, and the relatively small area the Alethi had control of, they had no need to contest the gemhearts the Alethi were after.  Their people were slowly being wiped out fighting a war over a resource that they should have been able to get without competition if they had just looked elsewhere. 

 

Imagine Iraq ignoring its oil reserves, mostly ignoring them, so that it could go to war over Iran to get its oil reserves instead.  It just doesn't make sense.  That's why I thought there was something else going on, and while I was wrong about what that something might be, that's the only way it makes sense--unless their military and political leaders are criminally bad at basic tactics and strategies, to the point of condemning themselves and all of their people to death.  I can see that at the beginning of the war, but the Parshendi are capable of changing their thoughts, plans, etc., so if a strategy is failing hard, you would expect them to change it--unless there's something preventing that change.

[Argent he/him]

Maybe the chasmfiends don't pupate east of Narak, for example. I seem to recall something about them being somewhat localized.

[Seloun]

It's noted that the plateaus to the east are more worn due to the highstorm activity:

 

 

Kaladin didn’t know if he could trust his dream or not, but he’d asked around, and it was true that the eastern edge of the Shattered Plains was more open than the western side. The plateaus had been worn away. If the bridgemen could get there, they might be able to flee to the east.

 

Among other things, being more worn would imply the Parshendi probably could not navigate them, even if the greatshells pupated on that side (they're capable of jumping on the western side, but even on that side there are jumps they can't make).

 

The locations the greatshells select to pupate also don't seem to be randomly distributed:

 

 

Foolishness. He had to stay focused. The procession approached the meeting plateau , which had a large, oddly shaped mound of rock near the center. This plateau was close to the Alethi side of the Plains, but much farther south than Adolin had ever gone . Early patrols had said chasmfiends were more common out in this region, but they never spotted a chrysalis here. Some kind of hunting ground, but not a place for pupating?

 

So there probably is some reason why the greatshells prefer the western edge of the Plains for pupating.

 

The secondary reason is that the Parshendi appear to have a reason to engage the Alethi, probably because if the Alethi do make a concerted attack towards the center, they don't have the numbers to prevail. If they aren't constantly engaging the Alethi scouts or expeditions, the Parshendi risk the Alethi finding the center, in which case they're pretty much guaranteed to be wiped out.

It's true that the Parshendi do not pursue a more total war. This appears to be intentional. As Kaladin notes:

 

 

He was impressed by the Parshendi. He fought dozens of them, each with a slightly different style of combat. It seemed they were sending only two or four at him at a time. Their attacks were careful and controlled, and each pair fought as a team. They seemed to respect him for his skill.

 

Most telling, they seemed to back away from fighting Skar or Teft, who were wounded, instead focusing on Kaladin, Moash, and the other spearmen who showed the most skill. These were not the wild, uncultured savages he had been led to expect. These were professional soldiers who held to an honorable battlefield ethic he had found absent in most of the Alethi. In them, he found what he’d always hoped he would find in the soldiers of the Shattered Plains.

 

That realization rocked him. He found himself respecting the Parshendi as he killed them.

 

In particular, the Parshendi never press their advantage when the Alethi retreat:

 

 

He turned Gallant, looking eastward. The Parshendi crowded up to the chasm, but did not give chase. A group of them worked on the chrysalis atop the plateau. It had been forgotten by all sides in the fervor. They had never followed before, but if they changed their mind now, they could harry Dalinar’s force all the way back to the permanent bridges.

 

From the perspective of just winning, this is pretty silly. The Parshendi appear to win at least half the time, and by harrying whenever they win at the chrysalis, they likely could wipe out the entire Alethi force each time they win. It's arguably poor strategy, but in this case strategy is probably being overriden by what would essentially be called political reasons; Estonai wants to negotiate with the Alethi. It's also not clear what the Alethi would have done if the Parshendi pursued a more ruthless war; for example, they could have done what Dalinar and Sadeas did late in the war, with a forward capture army and a second army to prevent Parshendi counteradvances and such changes in strategy might have been worse for the Parshendi in the long run. Most likely though it's probably not in the Parshendi nature to be that ruthless, and being less top-down organized than the Alethi it probably would have been difficult for the Parshendi leadership to convince all of their soldiers to pursue such a tactic.

[king of nowhere]

YEs, the greatshell prefer the eastern edge, but even then, the alethi control only a minimal part of it. as I calculated before, they controlled only some 2% of the shattered plains, so even if the chasmfiends only pupate on the eastern edge, can they only pupate in that 2%? Seem too specific. unless the mistery spren that is symbiotic to them is the spren of narrative causality.
I tried to post a drawing, but I cannot find a way to insert an image from my pc. anyway, the alethi controlled area really is small. It covers 2% of the plains according to generous estimates of how much they could march in a plateau run. depending on how we define the western border, it still occupies no more than 10-15% of it. which would still leave the listeners able to get at least 4 gemhearts out of 5 undisturbed.

So either my estimate of how much the alethi could march on a plateau run wasn't generous enough (more likely the army moved even more slowly than i assumed), or the chassmfiends were really, really choosy in their plateau.

[Savanorn he/him]

The best response, although I'm not sure how textually correct it would be, is that the Greatshells likely have a small, specific set of plateus they pupate on, and all are within the range of Alethi camps.

Maybe the Alethi just got tremendously lucky.

[Numb]

Since this isn't in WoR sub-forum I'll attempt to spoiler(I always mess it up)

 

We learn that the Listerners trap Spren in gems much like the Alethi do for fabrials. They then use these trapped spren in order to specify their transformations. They were actively trying to find new forms in order to survive. Their need for gemhearts could be linked to the need for forms and experimentation of forms. Without the gemhearts they know no way of controlling what they transform.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Numb

[elril]

A, while your geometry is correct, I think you base assumptions could be wrong.  The difference between a strike force hurrying and a full army +entourage travelling and scouting are very different things.  Plus it was pretty common for the gem heart expeditions to get back after dark...

 

As for the military, remember that the listeners weren't trying to win, just survive.  If they had riled the entire Alethi Nation they would have been completely wiped out in short order.  I could give a pretty simple example for that, but it would be spoiler-full....

[Pathfinder]

Since this isn't in WoR sub-forum I'll attempt to spoiler(I always mess it up)

 

We learn that the Listerners trap Spren in gems much like the Alethi do for fabrials. They then use these trapped spren in order to specify their transformations. They were actively trying to find new forms in order to survive. Their need for gemhearts could be linked to the need for forms and experimentation of forms. Without the gemhearts they know no way of controlling what they transform.

Yeah I am iffy on the decorum as well. Do I make reference to WoR, and use spoiler tags, or leave the thread alone till the time duration expires and then comment? I elected for spoiler tag, and if it is an issue then I assume the moderators will remove it and I will be informed for going forward:

 

In Words of Radiance if I recall correctly Eschonai states that they use the battle over the gemhearts to distract the Alethi from raising the old gods, and I think also to distract them from a total war campaign. As long as the Alethi are focused on competing for the gemhearts, and see them as valuable, they won't make an organized and concerted push to attack the parshendi at their home. 

[DSC01 he/him]

I think that the chasmfiends just tend to pupate closer to the war camps. That is, after all, where the Listeners used to live (per the first Eshonai interlude in WoR). Otherwise, yeah, the whole war makes no sense.

[Serity]

I'd say the theory that makes more sense is that the Parshendi were fighting these battles in an attempt to keep the Alethi occupied so they wouldn't be completely destroyed. They assumed if they spent a few years fighting small, insignificant battles in the plains, eventually the Alethi would get tired and go home. They just didn't count on just how much Alethi like their wars. So in conclusion, no, they didn't really need to go after those particular gemhearts, they just provided a convenient neutral ground to keep the Alethi engaged without devastating the Parshendi.

[Inherent]

The thing that made more logical sense to me is that the Parshendi fought over the gemhearts within the Alethi warcamp range in order to limit the supplies available to the warcamps. Less gemhearts means less soulcasting meaning less food and buildings for the Alethi. If the Parshendi won enough they could force the High Princes to leave the Shattered Plains. 

 

On the note of having a forward camp closer to the Alethi War Camps. it has been made abundantly clear that the Parshendi fear the Alethi's brutality and treatment of Parshmen, as well as being heavily outnumbered that putting themselves in a position of danger was not really an option.

[JJRosso]

I think inherent has it. They wanted to keep the alethi away from their home but also stop them from getting the gem hearts aswell. Bore them into going home. Eshonai was wrong in this assumption that they would leave the shattered plains

[name_here]

I don't think your geometry is right. You're treating the Warcamps as a point, and I don't think that's a good approximation. Also, the full army would be much, much slower than the plateau runs. Remember, they're bottlenecked by the bridges, and I don't think they've got more than triple the number they send on plateau runs. I believe the plateau runs generally consisted of one of ten companies, so time spent crossing bridges is more than tripled just from the soldiers. Then there's the supply train and such.

[menacekop]

I think that the chasmfiends just tend to pupate closer to the war camps. That is, after all, where the Listeners used to live (per the first Eshonai interlude in WoR). Otherwise, yeah, the whole war makes no sense.

 

There could be a reason for this.  Perhaps food?  The War seems to have created a pretty rich consentration of corpses for the chasmfiends to feed on.  Perhaps they pupate in the area because its just happens to be where they can get the most/best grub in all of the chasms.  Hell I know the first thing i want to do after filling my belly is pupate.

Edited September 5, 2014 by menacekop

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I think you're looking at this issue all wrong. You are absolutely correct that it makes no sense to contend with the Alethi over the gemhearts when in all probability the Chasmfiends pupate all over the plains. Why then do they do it?

 

Imagine you are the Parshendi council of 5, 6 years ago when the Alethi are first marching to the Shattered Plains. There was no guarantee they were going to set up their warcamps on the western edge as they did. If uncontested, they likely would have kept moving inward towards your city. Then the Alethi discover the gemhearts and it is a great boon to you because their greed is diverting them from a genocidal rampage. However, their leaders still need to at least have a token reason for stopping to go after gemhearts rather than continuing on after your people. So you send strike forces to harry them and contest them for gemhearts on their side long enough for them to entrench themselves there, well away from your city. It doesn't really matter to you where you fight them as long as it isn't near your city, so letting them choose the ground on the western edge is fine enough. You have to keep fighting to keep them occupied away from your city. Over the years you start sending less and less warriors to convince them they are winning in the hope that they will get bored and go home, believing they have won. However, you underestimate their greed which is why they're still here 6 years later and you need a new plan.

[king of nowhere]

you guys all made good arguments and convinced me, like, two months ago.