Extreme Crackpot Theory

[Higgs-Boson Spren]

Keep in mind this is just my mind wandering. There is not really any indication to this, and it very well may have already been confirmed false. 
 

Is the Cosmere the name of the universe or the galaxy? if it’s the universe then scratch the rest of this. But if it’s the galaxy, what if Adonaulsium (sorry if that’s spelled wrong) wasn’t the only being/power/thing like it? Could there be others in other galaxies? Could we maybe see one of these beings come to the Cosmere? 

[Honorless]

20 minutes ago, Higgs-Boson Spren said:

Keep in mind this is just my mind wandering. There is not really any indication to this, and it very well may have already been confirmed false. 
 

Is the Cosmere the name of the universe or the galaxy? if it’s the universe then scratch the rest of this. But if it’s the galaxy, what if Adonalsium (there, corrected) wasn’t the only being/power/thing like it? Could there be others in other galaxies? Could we maybe see one of these beings come to the Cosmere? 

Yup, Cosmere only refers to the star cluster. As far as any in-universe Arcanist knows Adonalsium's power was original to him. There is a figure referred to as 'the God Beyond' who might be that or possibly just a more Revisionist or New Age idea of God to the more-Cosmere aware. Brandon completely RAFOs anything on the God Beyond, though some people on the Shard consider him to be a similar idea as the Beyond (a question without an answer - is there a god? Is there an afterlife?)

Edited November 17, 2019 by Honorless

[Higgs-Boson Spren]

I was just reading one of your posts with a similar theory. Do we have anything that could point to “cousins” of Adonalsium or anything to disprove that?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Higgs-Boson Spren

[Honorless]

Nope. Personally, Adonalsium could also turn out to be something akin to a "Shard" of something greater. As some might say "it's turtles all the way down". Gods as pieces of gods as pieces of gods as pieces of gods.....

[Higgs-Boson Spren]

I love everything about that

[Honorless]

Thanks 

Oh, looks like you accidentally double-posted this.

Just go to the top of the other page, there should be a yellow button 'Moderate' there, click it then click 'Hide' from the drop-down menu, then state a reason for deleting the thread "accidentally double posted", and you're good to go!

[Calderis]

@Higgs-Boson Spren honestly, this one comes down to headcanon.

Yes the Cosmere is just a star cluster, but the scope of the story Brandon is writing is in it. We're never going to see outside it. 

Personally, I believe the only reason that the Cosmere is special is because it's where the Shattering occurred. The same way that the Shards are confined to their planets, it would be difficult for them to leave this area of the universe because it's the place their Investiture is tied to. 

I think that Adonalsium was the real creator God of the Cosmere universe and was infinite, and as such, so are the Shards... But the just like the Splintered shards systems continue on even after they get broken, I think the rest of the universe is just continuing on on autopilot and isn't even aware if the change. 

It's really up to you though. It's not going to impact the story. 

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Mestiv

Cosmere is a dwarf galaxy. Does Investiture exist in other galaxies? Do those galaxies have their own Adonalsiums?

Brandon Sanderson

That is beyond the scope... that's a RAFO, but not a RAFO I'm going to answer, that is a RAFO that we are concerned only with the cosmere.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

Just as with the God Beyond and the Beyond. 

Quote

Questioner

After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson

So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

[Aon Tia]

Also similar questions have been RAFOed

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Questioner

Is the God Beyond, or the Unknown God, one of the Adonalsium Shardholders or is it another godlike entity?

Brandon Sanderson

You got [a RAFO card].

 

Footnote: The context around the question includes the questioner's interest in the RAFO cards, hence Brandon's "you got it" reply before handing him one.

#adonalsium #god beyond #rafo

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)
#48 

 

Questioner

You mention Adonalsium as a being, and that they were split. Where one supposedly supreme being exists, are there others?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

 

[Honorless]

And once again I'd point out that the God Beyond has never been connected to the idea of a capital G-God, afaik. The only connecting point is that he was mentioning the idea of the Beyond and existence of God in the same line, in which he was using 'Beyond' not just as the in-story concept but as the idea of something existing beyond death irl.

God Beyond seems to have been used too many times as a plot element: as "the Unknown God" of the MaiPon, The God Beyond of Threnody, known under the same name to various other characters such as Wayne, referred to by Khriss as "subtle powers being manifest"

Edited November 17, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, Honorless said:

God Beyond seems to have been used too many times as a plot element: as "the Unknown God" of the MaiPon, The God Beyond of Threnody, known under the same name to various other characters such as Wayne, referred to by Khriss as "subtle powers being manifest"

And that doesn't line up with the idea of the God Beyond as a spreading and overarching religion rooted in the idea of a real God that will be debated in world in the same way as God is debated in ours? 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Ten

The Carriage Ride to the Forge

Note that Wayne sleeping here is a side effect of him getting really sickly for a short time, trying to recover a bit of healing power. Marasi thinks he's just relaxed, which . . . well, he kind of is, but he wouldn't be sleeping right now save for the effects of his Feruchemy.

As another side note, the city really is as miraculous as Marasi thinks to herself. Sazed created an Eden-esque little section of land here, a place of extreme bounty and fertility, in order to cradle the regrowth of mankind. The actual science (such that it is) of it has to do with the mists bringing fresh water and hugging the ground extra strongly here, as well as some molds that refertilize the ground.

Marewill flowers are named after Kelsier's wife. (Spook, the Lord Mistborn, came up with the name—as well as naming a lot of the things that held out until this time, such as the months of the year.) The other little worldbuilding item of note here is the idea of what Wayne calls the "God Beyond," which is an idea that has begun to creep into society, the idea that there is a greater God of the universe beyond people like Harmony or Kelsier. It's somewhat analogous to some of the Gnostic beliefs in early Christianity.

The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

This is a plot point. But it's not one for an active player but for a belief system. 

[Honorless]

I would have continued to consider this as a greater possibility until Oathbringer (Dalinar's Nohadon vision and mysterious warmth). I think there's far too many indications that the God Beyond is an entity, though also quite likely to be another Shard or some sort of Realmatic mechanism much more than another Adonalsium-lite creature.

Again, my point isn't that it can't fit in the narrative as a theological argument of a greater God, just that the figure of the God Beyond has never been explicitly linked to that concept by any WoB. The God Beyond is RAFO, yes, but not stated to be beyond the scope of the narrative or an open question, because that WoB is a referencing the question of the existence of God, not necessarily the in-world 'God Beyond'.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Honorless

[Aon Tia]

RAFO actually suggests that it might be something we learn about as Cosmere progresses..I like the idea of god beyond being some other shard ..

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The God Beyond is RAFO, yes, but not stated to be beyond the scope of the narrative or an open question, because that WoB is a referencing the question of the existence of God, not necessarily the in-world 'God Beyond'.

I'll require the relevant portion from my last posted Annotation. 

Quote

The other little worldbuilding item of note here is the idea of what Wayne calls the "God Beyond," which is an idea that has begun to creep into society, the idea that there is a greater God of the universe beyond people like Harmony or Kelsier. It's somewhat analogous to some of the Gnostic beliefs in early Christianity.

I think it's fairly clear that the God Beyond is the that belief, because all references to the God Beyond are intentional references to the same thing. 

Quote

Windrunner

Shai refers to an Unknown God, is this at all related to the rocks that fell from the sky that Shai's ancestors carved?

Brandon Sanderson

For her people, there is a relationship. But watch for mentions of the God Beyond in the books. There is more here.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

Quote

Trae

The term "the God Beyond" is used across several worlds and stories set in the cosmere. Is this piece of terminology one that has spread across the cosmere through the intermingling of worldhoppers and native populations? And if not, is it merely a conceit that the translation into English we read encapsulates similar convergent ideas?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. I have been expecting that question for a while. So... various people are using this phrase, "The God Beyond." And, what Trae is asking is, "Is that a translation artifact?" ...Like, our conceit is, when you are reading a book from the cosmere, I (or someone) has translated it into English. So when you see someone make a pun, it doesn't necessarily mean they made that exact pun, it means they made a pun in their language that worked, and I am looking for one in English that expresses the same concept or the same humor. Or lack thereof, if you don't like puns. In our language. So, you're asking, the God Beyond: do they all say "the God Beyond"? Or the saying some entity that I am translating all as God Beyond. And they are actually all saying "God Beyond." It is the same, in their language, same thing. So, like worldsinger, worldbringer, things like this; the linguistic ties there are intentional, as opposed to just an artifact of the translation. There are things that are artifacts of translation very commonly, but that is not one. I am doing that intentionally.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

Why would Brandon have intuitively linked the ideas of an afterlife in the Beyond, and the idea of a true "God" in the God Beyond by the use of that terminology if it weren't? 

I'm not trying to be insulting here, I'm genuinely curious on your reasoning. The two things being related beliefs has just seemed clear to me from the beginning, and your the first person I've seen acknowledge the intentional lack of explanation of the Beyond who till think that the God Beyond could be a player in the story. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Calderis

[Honorless]

Those are from two different WoBs, the first one discussing the existence of god and the afterlife, and the second one discussing the emergence of an idea of a god greater than the Shards.

The idea is starting to creep into multiple Shardworlds, matching Khriss' description of "subtle powers", possibly also Dalinar's "warmth". The other WoBs also seem to suggest narrative importance.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Those are from two different WoBs, the first one discussing the existence of god and the afterlife, and the second one discussing the emergence of an idea of a god greater than the Shards.

The idea is starting to creep into multiple Shardworlds, matching Khriss' description of "subtle powers", possibly also Dalinar's "warmth". The other WoBs also seem to suggest narrative importance.

I don't disagree with the narrative importance. I just don't see why that necessitates it being an actual entity. The cultural and social impact of something greater than the Shards has real ramifications in a universe that actual Ascended divinities are not uncommon. 

As to Dalinar... I don't think that's external at all. I think that and Unity are all tied up together. 

[Honorless]

Then it comes down to narrative preference. I was disputing the idea of the God Beyond = Capital G-God being a foregone conclusion via the WoBs. As for Dalinar, I have stated elsewhere that there is a possibility of it being another Shard (other characters who have encountered or felt the influence of other Shards have attributed similar divine feelings: Preservation, Endowment, Odium, Ruin, Autonomy in WS prose) or some Realmatic mechanism (of Adonalsium or of Honor).

I'd just also considered the possibility of it being exactly what Dalinar assumed it was: "God" and linked it with the one term that happened to be floating around for describing the same thing. 

[Fractalfire]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Higgs-Boson Spren honestly, this one comes down to headcanon.

Yes the Cosmere is just a star cluster, but the scope of the story Brandon is writing is in it. We're never going to see outside it. 

Personally, I believe the only reason that the Cosmere is special is because it's where the Shattering occurred. The same way that the Shards are confined to their planets, it would be difficult for them to leave this area of the universe because it's the place their Investiture is tied to. 

I think that Adonalsium was the real creator God of the Cosmere universe and was infinite, and as such, so are the Shards... But the just like the Splintered shards systems continue on even after they get broken, I think the rest of the universe is just continuing on on autopilot and isn't even aware if the change. 

It's really up to you though. It's not going to impact the story. 

Just as with the God Beyond and the Beyond. 

 

My personal headcanon on the matter is that Andonalsium is simply a very powerful being, not a true "infinite creator god". 

After all, a being who is truly omnipotent would have to have the property of aseity (necessary existence) and thus couldn't, even hypothetically, be "shattered."

To say that a necessary being shattered is like saying "a married bachelor" or "a round square" -- it is a meaningless sentence and not something that could hypothetically happen. An omnipotent, omniscient being could not even "will" themselves to shatter anymore than they could will "all mimsy were the borogroves," because the sentence contains no meaningful content. 

Furthermore if (per impossibile) a necessary entity responsible for instantiating the universe were to be destroyed everything it created ex nihilo would also be destroyed (since its continued contingent existence must be upheld by said entity in order for it to, you know, KEEP existing). 

So I conclude that anyone who thinks Andonalsium was omnipotent, in story, is as wrong as the people who thought Honor was omnipotent and eternal. He was certainly on a different order of power from the shards (perhaps even uniquely powerful), but he could not have been infinitely powerful. If you were to combine the powers of all the Ainur from The Silmarillion into one being, I think he would be on about that power level. 

Realistically, we'll never get a straight answer about this from Brandon. He's made it clear from his "God beyond" stuff that there might be other, more powerful forces out there, but that he's not willing to explore that territory, because that would be straying into conflict with real-world beliefs. So for story purposes, Andonalsium is top dog, but not necessarily top god. 

[Fractalfire]

Concerning the gnosticism, here's a quote I found intriguing, particularly because of some familiar terms:

 

Quote

 

In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “create” is ordinarily understood. While this True God did not fashion or create anything, He (or, It) “emanated” or brought forth from within Himself the substance of all there is in all the worlds, visible and invisible. In a certain sense, it may therefore be true to say that all is God, for all consists of the substance of God. By the same token, it must also be recognized that many portions of the original divine essence have been projected so far from their source that they underwent unwholesome changes in the process. To worship the cosmos, or nature, or embodied creatures is thus tantamount to worshipping alienated and corrupt portions of the emanated divine essence.

The basic Gnostic myth has many variations, but all of these refer to Aeons, intermediate deific beings who exist between the ultimate, True God and ourselves. They, together with the True God, comprise the realm of Fullness (Pleroma) wherein the potency of divinity operates fully. The Fullness stands in contrast to our existential state, which in comparison may be called emptiness.

One of the aeonial beings who bears the name Sophia (“Wisdom”) is of great importance to the Gnostic world view. In the course of her journeyings, Sophia came to emanate from her own being a flawed consciousness, a being who became the creator of the material and psychic cosmos, all of which he created in the image of his own flaw. This being, unaware of his origins, imagined himself to be the ultimate and absolute God. Since he took the already existing divine essence and fashioned it into various forms, he is also called the Demiurgos or “half-maker” There is an authentic half, a true deific component within creation, but it is not recognized by the half-maker and by his cosmic minions, the Archons or “rulers”.

http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

 

 

If something like this occurred, it makes intuitive sense -- Adonalsium could be the Demiurge -- something that thinks it is a creator god, but in fact is a flawed creation. This would explain both why people wanted to destroy it and why they could destroy it -- because its not actually all-powerful. 

 

Edit: WHOOPS. Just now noticed that this has already been addressed:

 

 

Quote

 

Billy Todd

How closely does Adonalsium map to the gnostic demiurge?

Brandon Sanderson

A little bit.

Billy Todd

So, not completely? I'm not completely off?

Brandon Sanderson

That's not off at all. 

Billy Todd

So, not the urge, but the demiurge. 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, well I'll have to go read to make sure what I'm talking about then. Your answer is: I will go read and make sure I know. I thought I knew what I was talking about.

Billy Todd

So, there's the creator, which is the urge, which is the creator of the Universe. *large hand gesture* The demiurge is actually God. The demiurge is the one that creates [its] universe, *small hand gesture inside larger gesture* and entities living within the universe need knowledge of that which is beyond what the demiurge has created.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, that matches pretty well.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

  Edited November 17, 2019 by Fractalfire

[Calderis]

@Fractalfire two things here. 

First, the demiurge "creates its universe." The greater bring, if it exists at all, would exist outside and Beyond Adonalsium's universe.

The personality that was Adonalsium's died but parts of it still exist in the intents that were the Shards. For the universe, just as for investiture, everything and nothing changed. Aseity is not necessary. 

Secondly, and more importantly, this isn't a theory. It's headcanon for something that will never ever be explained. You can believe that the Beyond is real. You can believe that the universe beyond the Cosmere is a papier mache globe with holes cut in it for stars. You can believe that the Cosmere is a computer simulation in Brandon's Basement and that he is the God Beyond. None of it matters because it will never confirmed or denied and has no effect on anything. We will never see outside the Cosmere. 

I'm not going to argue headcanon any further. 

 

[Fractalfire]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Fractalfire two things here. 

First, the demiurge "creates its universe." The greater bring, if it exists at all, would exist outside and Beyond Adonalsium's universe.

The personality that was Adonalsium's died but parts of it still exist in the intents that were the Shards. For the universe, just as for investiture, everything and nothing changed. Aseity is not necessary. 

Secondly, and more importantly, this isn't a theory. It's headcanon for something that will never ever be explained. You can believe that the Beyond is real. You can believe that the universe beyond the Cosmere is a papier mache globe with holes cut in it for stars. You can believe that the Cosmere is a computer simulation in Brandon's Basement and that he is the God Beyond. None of it matters because it will never confirmed or denied and has no effect on anything. We will never see outside the Cosmere. 

I'm not going to argue headcanon any further. 

 

I'm... frankly a little taken aback. Based on your sarcasm and your refusal to "argue further" (were we arguing?), I seem to have offended you in some way, yet I've no idea how I managed to do so, even after rereading the conversation. 

I did explicitly state that that my "theory" was headcanon. I was just giving my personal opinion, which I then backed up with arguments. I only mentioned my opinion because I wanted to put it forth as another possible perspective. I did not mean to by so doing, insult either you or your theory, just offer an alternative that will never be proven either way. 

I agree that "The greater bring, if it exists at all, would exist outside and Beyond Adonalsium's universe." I thought that was a given...

Quote

The personality that was Adonalsium's died but parts of it still exist in the intents that were the Shards. For the universe, just as for investiture, everything and nothing changed. Aseity is not necessary. 

(?)

I was arguing that Adonalsium does not have the property of Aseity and that, since he obviously does not, he cannot be "all-powerful," since you cannot have one without the other. (A being which is not necessary must have come into existence, since it came into existence, some other power must have made it or allowed it to be formed. Hence, it is a secondary being and less powerful than whatever caused it to exist.)

Any all-powerful being must also have necessary existence, otherwise it could not possibly be all-powerful. Adonalsium does NOT have necessary existence, hence he cannot be all powerful. 

So yes, aseity is not necessary -- in fact, I would say it can be demonstrated that Adonalsium does not possess it. 

 

 

[Calderis]

@Fractalfire sorry. The manner in which you presented your headcanon seemed as if it were a counter argument to mine. Not simply an alternative. 

[Friendshipspren]

On 11/17/2019 at 1:06 PM, Honorless said:

 

God Beyond seems to have been used too many times as a plot element: as "the Unknown God" of the MaiPon, The God Beyond of Threnody, known under the same name to various other characters such as Wayne, referred to by Khriss as "subtle powers being manifest"

When does khriss say that ?

Quote

characters who have encountered or felt the influence of other Shards have attributed similar divine feelings: Preservation, Endowment, Odium, Ruin, Autonomy in WS prose) or some Realmatic mechanism (of Adonalsium or of Honor).

WS ?

Edited November 28, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Honorless]

16 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

When does khriss say that ?

Arcanum Unbounded, iirc

16 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

WS ?

White Sand

[KandraAllomancer]

On 17.11.2019 at 7:53 AM, Calderis said:

Yes the Cosmere is just a star cluster, but the scope of the story Brandon is writing is in it. We're never going to see outside it. 

I used to think that too, but there is a new WoB offering some interesting possibilities:

Quote

Questioner

Has anyone, Shard or otherwise, tried to leave the Cosmere and will we see that on screen?

Brandon Sanderson

So far... yes, and I think yes, it's likely.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)