Helaran and Hoid

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

This is a subject that I havent seen much discussion on. They apparently knew eachother, since Helaran used Hoid as a messenger in WoR. That makes me wonder if Hoid has spent a lot of time with the Skybreakers? And in the case, is Nale aware that he is around? And could that mean that Nale has info he can give to Odium regarding Hoids location on Roshar?

[Quantus he/him]

At the end of OB, Hoid was able to provide real pictures of the Heralds' actual faces, and Shallash recognized Hoid's specific drawing style.  That indicates to me that Hoid is known to the Heralds as a group.  I dont think his presence on the planet alone would be anything valuable since as The King's Wit he's certainly not been keeping a low profile.  If Odium knows all those details beyond even the Diagram, he cant be entirely unaware of Hoid's recent meddling.  

 

As far as Helaran, I suspect Hoid was infiltrating the Skybreakers fringe organization and Helaran had no idea, but with Hoid it's equally possible he was there specifically to meet Shallan, and simply didnt know the "Why" yet.  

[Karger he/him]

48 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The King's Wit he's certainly not been keeping a low profile.  If Odium knows all those details beyond even the Diagram, he cant be entirely unaware of Hoid's recent meddling.  

Hoid is adapt at hiding himself and has access to future sight that can blind Odium and the diagram. 

50 minutes ago, Quantus said:

As far as Helaran, I suspect Hoid was infiltrating the Skybreakers fringe organization and Helaran had no idea, but with Hoid it's equally possible he was there specifically to meet Shallan, and simply didnt know the "Why" yet.  

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is a subject that I havent seen much discussion on. They apparently knew eachother, since Helaran used Hoid as a messenger in WoR. That makes me wonder if Hoid has spent a lot of time with the Skybreakers? And in the case, is Nale aware that he is around? And could that mean that Nale has info he can give to Odium regarding Hoids location on Roshar?

It is also possible that he met Helaran when he was in mufti and told him a story like he does to those he wants to help. 

[Aon Tia she/her]

8 hours ago, Karger said:

It is also possible that he met Helaran when he was in mufti and told him a story like he does to those he wants to help. 

And he might have let it slip that he is heading to Jah keved towards the general direction his house is. And then helaran might have asked him to send a message across to his father and siblings. Hoid might have felt that this is where he needs to be and went to visit. When he saw shallan he might have realised that she is the reason he needed to be there.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

At the end of OB, Hoid was able to provide real pictures of the Heralds' actual faces, and Shallash recognized Hoid's specific drawing style.  That indicates to me that Hoid is known to the Heralds as a group.  I dont think his presence on the planet alone would be anything valuable since as The King's Wit he's certainly not been keeping a low profile.  If Odium knows all those details beyond even the Diagram, he cant be entirely unaware of Hoid's recent meddling.  

I think Odium knows, or at least suspects, that Hoid is on Roshar, and is up to something. And yeah, I think that if Ash recognizes Hoids drawings, Nale should recognize Hoid on sight (then again, Hoid is good at disguises, so who knows). 

[Nnatel she/her]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think Odium knows, or at least suspects, that Hoid is on Roshar, and is up to something. And yeah, I think that if Ash recognizes Hoids drawings, Nale should recognize Hoid on sight (then again, Hoid is good at disguises, so who knows). 

I definitely agree that Odium is aware of Hoid's presence. But with Hoid, I guess, many people know who he is but it might get really hard to recognise him - just every time you see him he looks different. So although knowing that these were his drawings is not hard, I think it would be quite hard for anyone to realise it is him, even talking face to face. 

[Quantus he/him]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

Hoid is adapt at hiding himself and has access to future sight that can blind Odium and the diagram. 

I dont see how that is possible this time around, because he very much has not been hiding, at least not in the several years leading up to the Everstorm.  He settled down (for him, anyway) and took a prominent position in one of the most prominent Courts on the planet.  He had regular, sometimes daily, contact and influence on most of the major players of the age (Amaram, Sadeas, all the Kholins, etc).  If Renarin remaining alive causes that large swath of unknown darkness in Odium's Sight, there would inevitably be a similar Void left by a "hidden" Hoid, because his footprint is simply too big.  If he'd remained a random storyteller or beggar that gave a word or three at the right moment (like so many of his appearances) he could far more easily fly under the Radar.  But becoming The King's Wit is basically the opposite of that. 

I can far more easily buy that Odium knows he is there and involved, but Wit's "Where he Needs to Be" ability also provides a spidey-sense for when Odium's agents are closing in and he's been repeatedly and perpetually avoiding them.  Especially given the evidence that it's another Fortune/Spiritual-realm like Atium, it would make a lot of sense that it would make him very hard to pin down even with shardic Future-sight.  

1 hour ago, Nnatel said:

I definitely agree that Odium is aware of Hoid's presence. But with Hoid, I guess, many people know who he is but it might get really hard to recognise him - just every time you see him he looks different. So although knowing that these were his drawings is not hard, I think it would be quite hard for anyone to realise it is him, even talking face to face. 

He really doesnt though, he is nearly always dressed in black with white hair.  There's even a WOB about how White Hair + Storytelling will almost always mean Hoid, even in broadsheets.  

[Karger he/him]

8 hours ago, The traveller said:

And he might have let it slip that he is heading to Jah keved towards the general direction his house is. And then helaran might have asked him to send a message across to his father and siblings. Hoid might have felt that this is where he needs to be and went to visit. When he saw shallan he might have realised that she is the reason he needed to be there.

This was my assumption.

56 minutes ago, Quantus said:

But becoming The King's Wit is basically the opposite of that. 

But he has not been the King's Wit since the everstorm started.

56 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I can far more easily buy that Odium knows he is there and involved, but Wit's "Where he Needs to Be" ability also provides a spidey-sense for when Odium's agents are closing in and he's been repeatedly and perpetually avoiding them.  Especially given the evidence that it's another Fortune/Spiritual-realm like Atium, it would make a lot of sense that it would make him very hard to pin down even with shardic Future-sight.  

Yes.

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

But he has not been the King's Wit since the everstorm started.

I said that too, but Odium was around and manipulating things long before the Everstorm.

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

I said that too, but Odium was around and manipulating things long before the Everstorm.

But he seems to have had limited agents who could actually locate Hoid for him and he does not seem to have the ability to access the visions for example.  He only seemed to gain that latter.

[Aggravatione]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

He really doesnt though, he is nearly always dressed in black with white hair.  There's even a WOB about how White Hair + Storytelling will almost always mean Hoid, even in broadsheets.  

Just want to point out that I am almost 100% certain that on Roshar and as Wit, Hoid has had black hair as his disguise. Yes white hair and storytelling is very telltale signs of Hoid, but he is not always following that pattern. 

[Nnatel she/her]

14 minutes ago, Minimanmax1 said:

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

He really doesnt though, he is nearly always dressed in black with white hair.  There's even a WOB about how White Hair + Storytelling will almost always mean Hoid, even in broadsheets.  

Just want to point out that I am almost 100% certain that on Roshar and as Wit, Hoid has had black hair as his disguise.

Yeah, that's definitely true, so at least on Roshar he broke the pattern. Though I guess the way he looks is more of Brandon's way of telling us "look this is Hoid" than Hoid actually looking always the same. Just a storytelling reason. 

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

If he'd remained a random storyteller or beggar that gave a word or three at the right moment (like so many of his appearances) he could far more easily fly under the Radar.  But becoming The King's Wit is basically the opposite of that. 

I can far more easily buy that Odium knows he is there and involved, but Wit's "Where he Needs to Be" ability also provides a spidey-sense for when Odium's agents are closing in and he's been repeatedly and perpetually avoiding them.  Especially given the evidence that it's another Fortune/Spiritual-realm like Atium, it would make a lot of sense that it would make him very hard to pin down even with shardic Future-sight.  

Sometimes you are best hidden in plain sight - I wouldn't be surprised if Odium doesn't expect Hoid to get involved that much with important people. What is more, either his messing with Fortune allows him to avoid any unwanted problems or just using Fortune messes with Futuresight so much that Odium is unable to locate him.