Desolation's origins theory

[Ixthos he/him]

This theory is a slight sketch of what I think might have happened to cause the initial desolation. If anyone can spot any issues or areas whcih require correction, please let me know.

 

• Humans are refugees on Roshar, with Odium arriving around this time, either from Ashyn or just joining the system after being involved in what happened to Ashyn at a distance. Some, but not all, humans begin to follow Odium
• Human colony grows in strength, and at least a few members who were from Ashyn gain prominence and have a good relationship with the Singers. It was during this period that Hoid, technically a human, danced with Vatwha when visiting the planet (and side note, but I hope we see that doll he made again, and see it protecting the girl). At this point Singers follow Cultivation and possibly Honour, some humans follow Odium, and other humans - including some or all of those who would become Heralds - either follow Honour or have a respect for that shard
• Spren notice that human minds are better suited for benefiting them than humans, and so more and more spren favour trying to spend time with humans than Singers, and this results in Singers having a drought in some of their forms. Shinovar might be modified to prevent spren from properly manifesting their as a result
• Some humans, probably lead by Odium, start an altercation with the Singers, possibly trying to expand beyond the land given to them (this would in a sense be a little like in Peralandra by C.S. Lewis with them wanting to experience that which was forbidden even though it is dangerous and unpleasant, and ultimately costs you what you did have, which was better)
• This group of humans brutalises many Singers, and while other humans try to help the Singers, and condemn the actions of the Odium-influenced humans, many Singers become angry. Humans use powers from Odium during this time
• Singers begin attacking humans. Initially mainly the Odium following humans, but eventually civilian humans also. This might also involve attacking humans who haven't harmed any Singers but who are outside of Shinovar, and then moving up to attack humans everywhere
• Odium approves of all this, and when Honour and Cultivation won't help them against the humans, and might even forbid certain spren from giving forms to Singers which could help them fight, Odium offers power to those Singers. Their beef is mainly with humans, not the person who set them off, so they accept
• The Heralds appeal to Honour to help them protect the other humans, who are innocent, and Honour provides for them Honourblades
• The fighting continues as more and more Singers become embittered towards Cultivation and Honour, and hate the humans rightly who have attacked them, and wrongly those who are innocent, and so turn to Odium. Eventually all the Odium influenced humans are dead, but the Singers won't stop
• The Desolation begins in full, as it is now humans against Singers, with Honour and perhaps Cultivation aiding the humans, and spren now copy what Honour did and provide surgebinding to the humans, and now almost all Singers are against humans and almost all humans are against Singers, but even those who aren't against the other are caught in the crossfire

 

Based on this, I also wonder if the Aimians were likewise refugees, Roshar being a place for aliens of all types to flock to. In this sense then they would probably have been dragged into the fight as well, sympathising with both groups. The Singers because they likewise took them in (and the west of Roshar probably is where they stick all the peoples non-native due to the reduced strength of the Highstorms as well as them not needing Stormlight for their ecologies), and humans because like them they are refugees. Thus Aimian might be Rosharan for alien, explaining why they are both so different from each other.

[Fractalfire]

I agree with the broad strokes, though Brandon likely has some twists to shake this up.

My only major adjustment is that I think there was some sort of terrible inciting incident that led the humans to be justly mad at (some) Singers -- i.e. perhaps they were ill-treated in some manner by certain Singers afraid of their power. I think only something that really made the humans angry would interest Odium enough to bother helping them. Whether or not this happened before or after some left Shinovar I don't think we can guess.

Interestingly, this does leave the question of where the Singer-Human hybrid races come in. Some, like the Horneaters, appear to have been hunted and persecuted, forcing them to flee. The Horneaters notably don't believe in Voidbringers, suggesting that perhaps they either were not greatly involved in the fighting or did not see either side as a true enemy. 

 

Another missing piece of the puzzle: Why are the Singers so mad that "...their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."? Its one thing for mindless spren to favor humans and thus "betray" them, but what of the others? (I'm assuming this probably refers to the Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather.) I think something else happened there, deeper than spren just favoring humans. 

 

I really like the theory that Aimian means "aliens". I wonder if there fact that there are three "alien" races on Roshar has anything to do with the fact that there are three (artificial?) moons. 

 

Edit: Also, I am very happy to learn that I am not the only one who liked Peralandra.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Fractalfire

[Honorless he/him]

I would also include the Iriali as refugees to Roshar if their belief of the One and the Long Trail is any indication.

[Ixthos he/him]

@Fractalfire That would make sense: perhaps some who felt restricted by being confined to Shinovar, left to start a homestead, and were then attacked by a minority of Singers who were upset about the spren favouring humans and using the homestead as an excuse - though I agree there almost certainly is more to it than just what I presented. This then started the spiral. That could work :-)

The hybrids might have emerged from those humans and Singers who didn't want to fight and didn't see the other side as monolithic, and so chose to live together and tried to get out of everyone else's way.

 

Also, Peralandra was a great novel :-) I haven't yet read That Hideous Strength, but the first two books in the Space Trilogy were great, and I actually use one of the ideas from Peralandra - that of spirits being able to take on the properties they need such as intellect but not using them when not needed - in something I'm writing.

 

@Honorless I think Roshar probably has a lot of different groups from all over, especially if it is a major travel point like seems to be indicated, though until more Cognitive maps are shown of other worlds, it will be hard to say.

 

@Debarra The real question is when did they arrive relative to the Desolations? Were they there before the conflict started, or after?

Also, it took me a little while to realise why your current pic looks familiar :-P I take it you also like Overly Sarcastic Productions?

[Gilphon]

On the Iriali: I think the general consensus is that they most likely arrived in the centuries between the first and second desolation- which is to say, the Oathpact had been formed and everyone thought that that meant the problem had been solved for good. 

On Horneaters and Herdazians: I suspect the way the battle lines are currently drawn so strictly along species lines is mostly a post-recreance thing; if there could be peace between Desolations, then that implies that without the Fused bossing them around, the Singers weren't necessarily inclined to continue the war. And therefore hybrids happen. This also implies that not all of them would necessarily side with the Fused when they showed up. 

On Odium-aligned humans: I don't know if they ever died out, really. Like things probably ended poorly of the specific faction that initially attacked the Singers, but we've seen humans fighting on the same side as the Fused in a Stormfather vision. And all the Passion stuff in the modern Thaylen religion feels like it has Odium's fingerprints all over it. I would not shocked if there was a secret society hiding somewhere that has been waiting for Odium's return so they can petition him for power. 

On Aimians: I do think they're refugees, but not from Ashyn. I dunno where they're from. It's possible that the Sleepless could've evolved on Roshar, but people always describe Hordelings as 'odd-looking Cremlings', which implies to me that they're not particularly closely related to normal Cremlings. So I think it's more likely that they're from elsewhere. 

As a side note, and one that isn't directly related to questions of how this started but I do feel is very important: How exactly did the Singers become so dependant on Ba-Ado-Mishram? Like surely things couldn't always have been like that, since they weren't always Odium-aligned, but their minds were destroyed when she was sealed. Except for the Listeners, I guess because they were mostly in Dullform when that happen. Something weird but very important that we don't fully understand going on there, is what I'm saying. 

[Dalfiatach]

11 hours ago, Gilphon said:

As a side note, and one that isn't directly related to questions of how this started but I do feel is very important: How exactly did the Singers become so dependant on Ba-Ado-Mishram? Like surely things couldn't always have been like that, since they weren't always Odium-aligned, but their minds were destroyed when she was sealed. Except for the Listeners, I guess because they were mostly in Dullform when that happen. Something weird but very important that we don't fully understand going on there, is what I'm saying. 

Wasn't that the False Desolation?

It happened long after Aharietiam and Taln was still upholding the Oathpact so no Fused were involved. Ah here we go, from the gemstone library:

Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

And so the Radiants came up with the plan to imprison BAM, and this led to all the parsh losing the ability to think, and the horror of what they had (inadvertently) done led to the Recreance.

I don't think we have any info on exactly how BAM figured out how to make a bond with the parsh and provide voidlight though. Or indeed, why - could Odium still pass instructions to the Unmade from Braize somehow, or was it more an instinctive drive by the Unmade to find a way to continue the war?

You're right, there's lots more to be revealed about that particular episode yet.

BTW I loved the suggestion upthread by Fractalfire that the weirdness of the moons is because...well.... "that's no moon" 

[Ixthos he/him]

We'll probably have to wait to see if more is revealed about how the Oathpact interacted with Honour and Cultivation keeping Odium trapped. It might be that the pact also had some impact on Odium, or Odium deliberately withdrew with the Unmade stepping up because it would lead to this, the trapping leading to the damage to the Singers being what Odium wanted.

 

For the Singers loosing their minds when that Unmade was imprisoned - that probably similar to what happened to the spren for the Knights who betrayed their oaths. As Bo-Ado-Mishram was now the hub of their power the Singers who didn't leave to become Listeners probably were deeply drawing from it for power, and so were as linked to it as the spren were to their knights. When that link is broken, it's like a tree root being pulled from the soil.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Ixthos

[Honorless he/him]

On 11/6/2019 at 9:16 PM, Honorless said:

I would also include the Iriali as refugees to Roshar if their belief of the One and the Long Trail is any indication.

To add to that, I was rereading Edgedancer today and in the part where Lift encounters Arclo after the Skybreakers' attack, he calls himself "just another refugee..." while referencing themselves as friends to ancient Radiants.

Plus, 'Aimian' is a term that apparently refers to two distinct groups: the Siah and the Dysian (the Sleepless)

 

It seems Roshar became a refugee world for some reason. What happened to the homeworlds of these other groups?